Soft Doubling Strategy When First Ace Counts as 1

Hi everyone,

After some initial discussion in another thread I went searching for some answers on what changes (if any) there is to basic strategy if the ace received by the player in the first two cards is counted as a 1 instead of an 11?

In the specific game I'm interested in, if a player is playing a H17 game and elects to double on an A,8 (player can only double on 9-11) when the dealer has a 6, how much value is lost from doubling if the ace the player has counts as a 1? Given that if the player receives a 2 his hand will now be an 11 instead of a 21.

Thank you in advance

Quote: ddsdoni

Hi everyone,

After some initial discussion in another thread I went searching for some answers on what changes (if any) there is to basic strategy if the ace received by the player in the first two cards is counted as a 1 instead of an 11?

In the specific game I'm interested in, if a player is playing a H17 game and elects to double on an A,8 (player can only double on 9-11) when the dealer has a 6, how much value is lost from doubling if the ace the player has counts as a 1? Given that if the player receives a 2 his hand will now be an 11 instead of a 21.

Thank you in advance

Not sure I understand, in that an ace is one and 11 interchangeably. Ace 8 2 would be counted as 21, surely
Ace counts as 11 if you haven't bust but drops to 1 if 11 would bust

I.e in a normal game...
Dealt Ace would be 11
Ace-seven would be 18 (not 8)
hit
Ace seven seven would drop back to 15 (because 25 busts)
hit
Ace seven seven five would be 20

I have only encountered this a couple times in Reno where they have the double 9-11 only rule. And if you are only allowed to double on 9-11, then they count your ace-8 as 9 and if you are doubling down and if you draw a 2, it counts as 11. For it to count as 21, your ace-8 would have had to have been a 19 and you aren't allowed to double on 19.

It is a pretty crappy thing.

Now if you didn't double which involves the 9-11 doubling rule and just hit instead, then yes, your ace-8-2 would be 21.

Like I said....really crappy!

Quote: ddsdoni

Hi everyone,

After some initial discussion in another thread I went searching for some answers on what changes (if any) there is to basic strategy if the ace received by the player in the first two cards is counted as a 1 instead of an 11?

In the specific game I'm interested in, if a player is playing a H17 game and elects to double on an A,8 (player can only double on 9-11) when the dealer has a 6, how much value is lost from doubling if the ace the player has counts as a 1? Given that if the player receives a 2 his hand will now be an 11 instead of a 21.

Thank you in advance

Just because you chose to call the Ace a 1 when you doubled, doesn't mean it stays as a 1 forever! Ace/8/2 is still 21!

I'm sure some dealers would let you hit it again, but if you do, another player may hit you!

EDIT: If what kewlj said is correct, I'm wrong. I personally have never seen that. My apologies.
EDIT2: You also can't hit after a double. It still should be 21. I'll shut up now. LoL

Quote: mwalz9

EDIT: If what kewlj said is correct, I'm wrong. I personally have never seen that. My apologies.
EDIT2: You also can't hit after a double. It still should be 21. I'll shut up now. LoL

I have only seen it in Reno where they have the double on 9-11 only rule. And I'll tell you the first time it happened I was not a happy camper because I did have a big bet out. I argued and argued, but clearly was not going to win that arguement.

I played it at the old Westward Ho and was getting annoyed by it. I'm not sure how they handled those doubles but I remember not being happy on several hands.

The information from you shared is vast knowledge and everyone should read to be more open-minded. I am very grateful for that.

I have also come across a game like that, not in reno... and years ago in my more prominent blackjack days. I too was very confused and argued the ace is 1 OR 11, but this was a 2D D9-11 game and they did the same garbage argument that if you're going to treat A-8 as a hard 9, then you're electing and telling the house that your ace is now and for the rest of the hand will be only worth 1. I think this isn't legal as it no longer follows the rules of blackjack and is a way for the house to simply hurt the player with a strong hand.

I have seen the rule in some European casinos that if you double a soft hand then the Ace will count as 1 (not 11). Yes it sucks. I'm guessing the OP was asking a question how much does it cost to treat it as a hard 9 (and double) vs standing on 19.

Using this ( https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/expected-return-infinite-deck/ ) 19 is worth 0.495977, doubling 9 is worth 0.317055; so best not to do it.