Networking - Teamplay

Hi everyone, it's been a while since my last post!
I used to be pretty active here and a fairly successful card counter for a short time. (roughly +40K$ over 300 hours on PA rules, hi-lo I18+fab4)
I took a break. Now I'm back at it with a well replenishable 6 figure bankroll and in the North Cal area.
Thing is, doing this alone sucks and gets boring... Now that things are reopening and people can socialize more, I'm wondering if there are teams or individuals out there who want to collaborate. Also looking at ways to improve my AP skills and I've hit a ceiling with what's publicly available.
shoot me a message!

What do you bring to the table? If you are serious, this is your chance to sell yourself.

Good question!
Pros for a team:
I know I'm mentally built for this. One of the least emotional guys you'll ever meet.
I understand the math and know I can understand the math of other plays, which helps me stay consistent and take the huge downswings in stride.
Very trustworthy and discreet as anyone who gets to know me will attest.
Cons:
Available only part-time. Got a full-time job heading a team of software engineers. That helps replenish my bankroll when needed.
one silly thing I can't help myself from doing is correct dealer mistakes even on overplays because I worry it would get them in trouble...
I also tip 3 to 5$/ hour because dealers don't make minimum wage where I used to play, but can do that with my own cash in a team context.

Own any really fancy watches?

Nope.

Just speaking from my own experience. You seem like a decent person to partner with, pending checking on some credentials and who will vouch for you, etc... but pass that the two things I would have an issue with:

1) Part-time. So listen, I used to be a full time senior developer that put in FULL TIME hours in AP... so I don't doubt your resolve or passion. However, one of the things I can say is it's a different kind of fire when you don't have that safety net. I used to take it as a badge of my passion that I did both full time, whenever a full time AP would scoff at me for not being full time. I get a little bit more of what that's about now though. It's just, different, when you're 100% committed and 100% full time. When you're part time, have a normal job that takes priority, potentially a family, other hobbies/etc, you just don't have the 100% time to go as deep as you might think. I switched to full time AP and started traveling for plays/etc a lot more. When I did that I found a LOT more travel time to get in to books, podcasts, forums, etc, etc, and take my knowledge (from wherever it was on the scale) to yet another next level that I think you can only get with that kind of time/passion. Not that I didn't get in to the same things when I had a full time job, but you just devote more of your hours, brain power, etc, to turning over each and every stone to find the small pieces of the big prize puzzle.

Part time wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, and I'm sure for others pending your goals, but just know that it has nothing to do with you, your skills, or your bankroll if some other AP's see this as a deal breaker.

2) Correcting dealer mistakes. Do you know with 100% certainty that the house has caught/corrected 100% of the mistakes made against you? I'd be willing to bet my bankroll not. So in the cat and mouse game you're literally giving part of your edge away to them for free. If you want to take this seriously enough to go next level, this is one of the things (in my opinion) you need to change. I've literally seen (countless times) dealers fleecing players with dealer "mistakes" against the players.. especially "house dealers" that get off on taking money from players. Or new dealers that make tons of mistakes both ways... or just average dealers that make mistakes because hey we're all human. It's not even about catching/reporting/etc on the mistakes. My biggest issue here would be your willingness to give away any part of your legal edge. Anyone that takes this serious enough to want to make real money at it knows the importance of every single .1% of your edge and what impacts it can have on your day, month, year, etc. ESPECIALLY coming from a blackjack background with such a small edge to be had, you have to fight for every .1% you can get... and not only do you have to do this, if you're looking to team with others, you're now fighting for THEIR edge too. I would want a partner that I know is going to fight for every single amount of legal +EV edge we can get.

I'm not saying I've never corrected one of my "favorite" dealers before to legitimately keep them from getting in trouble (on thousands of dollars miss pays)... but not only did I do it for them, I also did it for my edge. What good is that pay if they get fired and the game is no longer available? That's when it's acceptable to correct dealer mistakes... when it's to GAIN +EV to your bankroll as well.


While memory fades on us all, I do feel like you made educated posts before and with your programming background I assume you could also help teams evaluate games with simulations, etc, etc. So I do think you can have success partnering with others, I just wanted to throw in a few things for you to think about from someone who's literally been in your exact shoes so that you also know what to expect coming back at you. =D

Good luck!

Thanks for the great reply as usual Romes!

1) you'r'e right that part-time would be a serious con for most people. I am able to give on average around 30 hours/week total (inc travel...Etc) but that might vary with workload.

2) The house definitely does not correct, but I do. I've corrected countless dealer mistakes against me. Regarding the overpays, I feel the +EV of taking advantage isn't that great when all is said and done.. I've often corrected overpays while the pit was watching. That's probably one of the things that's got me surprising longevity and the pits loved me and kept throwing comps at me. One other thing I didn't mention is it's not just to protect dealers, but also to protect my image of a nice guy to the pits and dealers.

For context, I had a great main place I used to play and played cautious for a while, then I was gonna move out of the country so didn't mind a back off and threw all cover out of the window and started spreading 1-20 with all deviations and nobody blinked, they just gave me more comps and free bets at over 50$ an hour!
Pits are humans and they're more ok with a nice friendly guy winning a lot than a jerk they once caught trying to cash an overpay and that ruined his image in their mind.
That was also part of the reasoning.
I am always looking for extra EV. Whether it's comps, promos, vulture plays or dealer mistakes if I'm having a bad day ^_^" not a strong principal there.

In my opinion, this is actually a beautiful example of the very slight differences in mindset and application that comes from being part time and professional. Everything you said makes a decent point, but if you're 100% full time and thinking bigger picture (as we must always be) then I would take small issues with a lot of it.

In the ghost vs nice guy game I'm definitely the type that leans hard in to the nice guy. I even talked about it in my articles that were posted years ago for some actual physical proof. While neither way is "the one way" and it's all situational, I believe helping the humans at work to have slightly less stress, albeit through jokes, helping to point out mistakes only when the pit is hard watching the table already, etc, is a good move and +EV. I think table image plays a huge role, while it can. I say while it can because with any form of AP, especially with card counting, your time is limited no matter how nice you are. There will in fact come a day when it just doesn't matter how nice, friendly, funny, or helpful you've been and it's not even a pit decision anymore. Casinos hate consistent winners. Flat out that is 100% the truth through my entire AP experience. You won't be consistent any given day, week, month, or maybe even year pending your table hours... but when they have enough data to form a bigger picture about your play (which is also what you want - to get to the long run to realize your edge) then you will no longer be welcome to play.

HOWEVER, again, it's all about EV and long term EV for me. I wouldn't correct those mistakes unless it was +EV... so as mentioned before to keep my "favorite" dealer from getting fired, or to build points with the pit when I believe the mistake will be caught either way. That being said I would not do it for any other reason. One thing I've learned the hard way over, and over, and over, and over again is that people in this business at ANY LEVEL consistently underestimate the little details and how much they add up to be in the long run.

Playing blackjack I think it's very realistic to expect about a dealer mistake per hour average overall. Sure some casinos have a tight crew with no mistakes, but if you travel and get a large sampling size there are far more casinos with dealers that just don't care, are poorly trained, are house dealers, etc, etc. Let's say you play 20 hours per week (even less than the 30 hours you said you'd be available). In 1 year of play you'll have put in 1040 hours. Mistakes, in my experience, are about 75/25 against the player. So they'll make 25 mistakes out of every 100 that you're telling us you correct and don't take the $ on. Furthermore let's say all of them were just minimum bet $10 mistakes (which again would only further my point and make the final $ amount even larger). Given all of these very padded stats, if you corrected every mistake FOR AND AGAINST YOU (so you must also be PERFECT), then you would be giving away $2600 per year. Yikes. Maybe that's not too big of a deal to a part time player? What's a few thousand among friends? Be sure to multiply this by every year of your play too...

Now let's look at this from a more realistic pro's perspective: 40 hours per week (2080 hours per year), 2 mistakes per hour (4160 total mistakes), 75/25 mistakes against you (1040 mistakes FOR you that you correct) worth an average of $25... Now if you correct all of these mistakes (again being perfect) you're giving up $26,000 per year. Absolutely and unequivocally unacceptable. Not to mention the "average $25" is, in my opinion, for a low to mid tier card counter, definitely not more the top level professional with an average bet over $100. Do I think I'd be getting $26k (or a lot more for my average bet) per year out of the pit/offers to make that worth it? Absolutely not.

Lastly, I too used to think like you with the "I know I won't be back here for years so why not burn it up a little?" But I refrained and I'm glad I always have, because now let's say you want to team (like you do) or go full time / bigger, etc. Well, it certainly isn't worth getting your face/name/info in to all of the databases. Sure this doesn't "kill" a card counter, but it definitely does make your life, and any teammates lives, a lot more difficult. Past that, as almost every professional does, you'll eventually want to move on past blackjack to things with much bigger edges and EV's. This will also hurt you, and any teammates, in the future as well... and this can be worth a lotttt more money than counting cards in blackjack. So now you're affecting your yearly earn to a whole other level.

I mean this with all respect and saying that I even had the same ideas/thoughts you did when I was in your position... you definitely just don't understand how important these little details and little .1%'s of EV are because you're not fighting for every .1% like your life depends on it, because it doesn't. When you branch out to team with others, whom might be full time professionals, this is going to be a big disconnect between the parties. Again, I still think you'd be a good guy to team with, I'm just trying to relate through my experience the challenges I think that are pretty well highlighted in this thread that as a part time player, that likes to correct all dealer mistakes, and isn't afraid to burn a place down, will have. I find zero of it wrong for you personally as a part time player, but I would never do any of those things as a professional. It's a war, and I won't spare even a single 1 of my troops.

Quote: Romes

In my opinion, this is actually a beautiful example of the very slight differences in mindset and application that comes from being part time and professional. Everything you said makes a decent point, but if you're 100% full time and thinking bigger picture (as we must always be) then I would take small issues with a lot of it.

In the ghost vs nice guy game I'm definitely the type that leans hard in to the nice guy. I even talked about it in my articles that were posted years ago for some actual physical proof. While neither way is "the one way" and it's all situational, I believe helping the humans at work to have slightly less stress, albeit through jokes, helping to point out mistakes only when the pit is hard watching the table already, etc, is a good move and +EV. I think table image plays a huge role, while it can. I say while it can because with any form of AP, especially with card counting, your time is limited no matter how nice you are. There will in fact come a day when it just doesn't matter how nice, friendly, funny, or helpful you've been and it's not even a pit decision anymore. Casinos hate consistent winners. Flat out that is 100% the truth through my entire AP experience. You won't be consistent any given day, week, month, or maybe even year pending your table hours... but when they have enough data to form a bigger picture about your play (which is also what you want - to get to the long run to realize your edge) then you will no longer be welcome to play.

HOWEVER, again, it's all about EV and long term EV for me. I wouldn't correct those mistakes unless it was +EV... so as mentioned before to keep my "favorite" dealer from getting fired, or to build points with the pit when I believe the mistake will be caught either way. That being said I would not do it for any other reason. One thing I've learned the hard way over, and over, and over, and over again is that people in this business at ANY LEVEL consistently underestimate the little details and how much they add up to be in the long run.

Playing blackjack I think it's very realistic to expect about a dealer mistake per hour average overall. Sure some casinos have a tight crew with no mistakes, but if you travel and get a large sampling size there are far more casinos with dealers that just don't care, are poorly trained, are house dealers, etc, etc. Let's say you play 20 hours per week (even less than the 30 hours you said you'd be available). In 1 year of play you'll have put in 1040 hours. Mistakes, in my experience, are about 75/25 against the player. So they'll make 25 mistakes out of every 100 that you're telling us you correct and don't take the $ on. Furthermore let's say all of them were just minimum bet $10 mistakes (which again would only further my point and make the final $ amount even larger). Given all of these very padded stats, if you corrected every mistake FOR AND AGAINST YOU (so you must also be PERFECT), then you would be giving away $2600 per year. Yikes. Maybe that's not too big of a deal to a part time player? What's a few thousand among friends? Be sure to multiply this by every year of your play too...

Now let's look at this from a more realistic pro's perspective: 40 hours per week (2080 hours per year), 2 mistakes per hour (4160 total mistakes), 75/25 mistakes against you (1040 mistakes FOR you that you correct) worth an average of $25... Now if you correct all of these mistakes (again being perfect) you're giving up $26,000 per year. Absolutely and unequivocally unacceptable. Not to mention the "average $25" is, in my opinion, for a low to mid tier card counter, definitely not more the top level professional with an average bet over $100. Do I think I'd be getting $26k (or a lot more for my average bet) per year out of the pit/offers to make that worth it? Absolutely not.

Lastly, I too used to think like you with the "I know I won't be back here for years so why not burn it up a little?" But I refrained and I'm glad I always have, because now let's say you want to team (like you do) or go full time / bigger, etc. Well, it certainly isn't worth getting your face/name/info in to all of the databases. Sure this doesn't "kill" a card counter, but it definitely does make your life, and any teammates lives, a lot more difficult. Past that, as almost every professional does, you'll eventually want to move on past blackjack to things with much bigger edges and EV's. This will also hurt you, and any teammates, in the future as well... and this can be worth a lotttt more money than counting cards in blackjack. So now you're affecting your yearly earn to a whole other level.

I mean this with all respect and saying that I even had the same ideas/thoughts you did when I was in your position... you definitely just don't understand how important these little details and little .1%'s of EV are because you're not fighting for every .1% like your life depends on it, because it doesn't. When you branch out to team with others, whom might be full time professionals, this is going to be a big disconnect between the parties. Again, I still think you'd be a good guy to team with, I'm just trying to relate through my experience the challenges I think that are pretty well highlighted in this thread that as a part time player, that likes to correct all dealer mistakes, and isn't afraid to burn a place down, will have. I find zero of it wrong for you personally as a part time player, but I would never do any of those things as a professional. It's a war, and I won't spare even a single 1 of my troops.

I stopped reading at the nice guy part and laughed my ass off.

Just kidding man(not about stopping there), you are actually a nice guy.

Quote: Romes

In my opinion, this is actually a beautiful example of the very slight differences in mindset and application that comes from being part time and professional. Everything you said makes a decent point, but if you're 100% full time and thinking bigger picture (as we must always be) then I would take small issues with a lot of it.

In the ghost vs nice guy game I'm definitely the type that leans hard in to the nice guy. I even talked about it in my articles that were posted years ago for some actual physical proof. While neither way is "the one way" and it's all situational, I believe helping the humans at work to have slightly less stress, albeit through jokes, helping to point out mistakes only when the pit is hard watching the table already, etc, is a good move and +EV. I think table image plays a huge role, while it can. I say while it can because with any form of AP, especially with card counting, your time is limited no matter how nice you are. There will in fact come a day when it just doesn't matter how nice, friendly, funny, or helpful you've been and it's not even a pit decision anymore. Casinos hate consistent winners. Flat out that is 100% the truth through my entire AP experience. You won't be consistent any given day, week, month, or maybe even year pending your table hours... but when they have enough data to form a bigger picture about your play (which is also what you want - to get to the long run to realize your edge) then you will no longer be welcome to play.

HOWEVER, again, it's all about EV and long term EV for me. I wouldn't correct those mistakes unless it was +EV... so as mentioned before to keep my "favorite" dealer from getting fired, or to build points with the pit when I believe the mistake will be caught either way. That being said I would not do it for any other reason. One thing I've learned the hard way over, and over, and over, and over again is that people in this business at ANY LEVEL consistently underestimate the little details and how much they add up to be in the long run.

Playing blackjack I think it's very realistic to expect about a dealer mistake per hour average overall. Sure some casinos have a tight crew with no mistakes, but if you travel and get a large sampling size there are far more casinos with dealers that just don't care, are poorly trained, are house dealers, etc, etc. Let's say you play 20 hours per week (even less than the 30 hours you said you'd be available). In 1 year of play you'll have put in 1040 hours. Mistakes, in my experience, are about 75/25 against the player. So they'll make 25 mistakes out of every 100 that you're telling us you correct and don't take the $ on. Furthermore let's say all of them were just minimum bet $10 mistakes (which again would only further my point and make the final $ amount even larger). Given all of these very padded stats, if you corrected every mistake FOR AND AGAINST YOU (so you must also be PERFECT), then you would be giving away $2600 per year. Yikes. Maybe that's not too big of a deal to a part time player? What's a few thousand among friends? Be sure to multiply this by every year of your play too...

Now let's look at this from a more realistic pro's perspective: 40 hours per week (2080 hours per year), 2 mistakes per hour (4160 total mistakes), 75/25 mistakes against you (1040 mistakes FOR you that you correct) worth an average of $25... Now if you correct all of these mistakes (again being perfect) you're giving up $26,000 per year. Absolutely and unequivocally unacceptable. Not to mention the "average $25" is, in my opinion, for a low to mid tier card counter, definitely not more the top level professional with an average bet over $100. Do I think I'd be getting $26k (or a lot more for my average bet) per year out of the pit/offers to make that worth it? Absolutely not.

Lastly, I too used to think like you with the "I know I won't be back here for years so why not burn it up a little?" But I refrained and I'm glad I always have, because now let's say you want to team (like you do) or go full time / bigger, etc. Well, it certainly isn't worth getting your face/name/info in to all of the databases. Sure this doesn't "kill" a card counter, but it definitely does make your life, and any teammates lives, a lot more difficult. Past that, as almost every professional does, you'll eventually want to move on past blackjack to things with much bigger edges and EV's. This will also hurt you, and any teammates, in the future as well... and this can be worth a lotttt more money than counting cards in blackjack. So now you're affecting your yearly earn to a whole other level.

I mean this with all respect and saying that I even had the same ideas/thoughts you did when I was in your position... you definitely just don't understand how important these little details and little .1%'s of EV are because you're not fighting for every .1% like your life depends on it, because it doesn't. When you branch out to team with others, whom might be full time professionals, this is going to be a big disconnect between the parties. Again, I still think you'd be a good guy to team with, I'm just trying to relate through my experience the challenges I think that are pretty well highlighted in this thread that as a part time player, that likes to correct all dealer mistakes, and isn't afraid to burn a place down, will have. I find zero of it wrong for you personally as a part time player, but I would never do any of those things as a professional. It's a war, and I won't spare even a single 1 of my troops.

Thanks for the thorough reply as usual. You're totally correct.
A few years ago, I saw it as just a hobby and never planned for it to become more than that. But that was a bit shortsighted.
Luckily it did not actually cost me. The handful of places I've played at recently have comped me well so I believe my cover is still intact. I know I will eventually have to play unrated in most scenarios but at the moment the comped rooms help.
Still looking forward to someone PMing me regarding plays in the west coast/vegas.

I think that it is ironic to believe that being a serious card counter means full time. Its not just money. It is a lifestyle, traveling and flexibility. If money was the main reason. Ac tech/installer 150k /year or trimming trees $300k /year. Or hot shot truck driving $300k / year. I doubt any counter can obtain that level of income. Or ac school owner $500k / year. An ac tech friend introduced me to a guy that only does installs. I heard there is a shortage of truck drivers. A friend drives for his friends hotshot co.