Rule variation

So we have a games called infinite blackjack - pretty sure that one guy who makes never ending news is the creator of it but not sure




And we have Stadium Blackjack



------------------------
Both are dealt ALMOST with the same procedure

except one difference - stadium blackjack players get to use the next cards as they come out for their hand

infinite blackjack DOES NOT

-------------------------

Heres an example - we have a "shuffled shoe" of cards

Shoe : 5432TJQKA

Infinite blackjack hands are dealt out like this :

Good Player : 53T
Bad Player : 53TJ (player hit his 18 because hes bad at this game)
Dealer with good player: 42JQ
Dealer with bad player : 42QK

Stadium blackjack hands are dealt like this :

Good player : 53T
Bad Player : 53TJ
Dealer with good player :42JQ
Dealer with bad player : 42TJ

------------------------------------------

the only reason im asking this question is because there are some really REALLy bad players in PA who will split tens and hit a soft 20

the "rule variation" is that on stadium the players who "play optimally" do not get affected if a bad player makes a bad move because they always get the next card as the infinite blackjack players must wait till all people are done acting "badly" and are always affecting the other players because they are using up the cards that the dealer normally would have gotten

is there a HA associated with the differences in rules

I've only played stadium BJ a couple times, and that was at the Sands PA - yeah, back when it was still the Sands.

Your description does not match my experience AT ALL.

My experience, playing while watching another player next to me, is that no player's actions can affect the cards that other players will use, and that the dealer's hit cards may not be the same on other terminals, but it's based on how many cards the player at the terminal took - not what other people take.

Every terminal shows the same thing. I.E. Whatever the dealer starts with, is the same on every terminal, and that includes what card is turned over when that time comes. Similarly, every player starts with the same two cards.

Then every player decides his action. If he takes a card (for whatever reason: hit, double down, split and dealt, etc.) he gets the next card drawn, and continues until he stands. Once he stands, the next card is given to the dealer if needed, while it may be used for players on some terminals.

In other words, every player makes a decision. Once decided, the card drawn is either given to the player, or used for the dealer at that player's terminal. Sometimes, cards are still being drawn when your own action, and your dealer's action, have been completed.

THEREFORE, using the deck in your example: 5432TJQKA

All terminals will show 53 for the player and show 4 for the dealer, with a 2 as the hole card.

Assume you have all 3 types of players.

Player A stupidly takes two hits, he gets the T and J, while the dealer shows his 2 and takes the Q and K.

Player B correctly takes one hit, he gets the T, while the dealer shows his 2 and takes the J and Q, and burns the K.

Player C stupidly takes no hits, the dealer shows his 2 and takes the T and J, then burns the Q and K.

On the next hand, every terminal starts with the A for the players.

Quote: heatmap

always affecting the other players because they are using up the cards that the dealer normally would have gotten

I mean, they're slowing down the number of hands the other players get. Otherwise they aren't affecting the other players return in the slightest.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I've only played stadium BJ a couple times, and that was at the Sands PA - yeah, back when it was still the Sands.

Your description does not match my experience AT ALL.

My experience, playing while watching another player next to me, is that no player's actions can affect the cards that other players will use, and that the dealer's hit cards may not be the same on other terminals, but it's based on how many cards the player at the terminal took - not what other people take.

"No players actions can effect another player" is written into Pennsylvania law in some fashion. I forget the exact wording.

I remember I didn't understand it at the time I read it, but the first time I played stadium blackjack (also at Sands Bethlehem) I then understood.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I've only played stadium BJ a couple times, and that was at the Sands PA - yeah, back when it was still the Sands.

Your description does not match my experience AT ALL.

My experience, playing while watching another player next to me, is that no player's actions can affect the cards that other players will use, and that the dealer's hit cards may not be the same on other terminals, but it's based on how many cards the player at the terminal took - not what other people take.

Every terminal shows the same thing. I.E. Whatever the dealer starts with, is the same on every terminal, and that includes what card is turned over when that time comes. Similarly, every player starts with the same two cards.

Then every player decides his action. If he takes a card (for whatever reason: hit, double down, split and dealt, etc.) he gets the next card drawn, and continues until he stands. Once he stands, the next card is given to the dealer if needed, while it may be used for players on some terminals.

In other words, every player makes a decision. Once decided, the card drawn is either given to the player, or used for the dealer at that player's terminal. Sometimes, cards are still being drawn when your own action, and your dealer's action, have been completed.

THEREFORE, using the deck in your example: 5432TJQKA

All terminals will show 53 for the player and show 4 for the dealer, with a 2 as the hole card.

Assume you have all 3 types of players.

Player A stupidly takes two hits, he gets the T and J, while the dealer shows his 2 and takes the Q and K.

Player B correctly takes one hit, he gets the T, while the dealer shows his 2 and takes the J and Q, and burns the K.

Player C stupidly takes no hits, the dealer shows his 2 and takes the T and J, then burns the Q and K.

On the next hand, every terminal starts with the A for the players.

I’m going to check it out to make sure what I think I’m seeing is incorrect. I live 5 minutes away so shouldn’t be too difficult to make sure I’m wrong.

Quote: kewlj

"No players actions can effect another player" is written into Pennsylvania law in some fashion. I forget the exact wording.

I remember I didn't understand it at the time I read it, but the first time I played stadium blackjack (also at Sands Bethlehem) I then understood.

Definitely looking this up ty

Quote: heatmap

Definitely looking this up ty

Please do.

But I should clarify that I am going back my time living in Pa. Casinos were first approved with no table games. Table games came a couple years later. So to compensate, some began offering different variations of electronic games that groups of people could play simulating a table game experience. Parx had the first one that I played. It was at this time that they came up with a rule or state regulation that one players action could not effect another player. And like I said, I never even understood what that was about until I saw the stadium blackjack at Sands several years later, in which one player hitting does not effect the other player. The next card up thing got around this rule.

Quote: kewlj

Please do.

But I should clarify that I am going back my time living in Pa. Casinos were first approved with no table games. Table games came a couple years later. So to compensate, some began offering different variations of electronic games that groups of people could play simulating a table game experience. Parx had the first one that I played. It was at this time that they came up with a rule or state regulation that one players action could not effect another player. And like I said, I never even understood what that was about until I saw the stadium blackjack at Sands several years later, in which one player hitting does not effect the other player. The next card up thing got around this rule.

I absolutely saw the connection to that specific machine and it’s the only time I ever heard that rule - I also thought the rule was trashed but I read it somewhere outside of the gaming controls website so I’m almost certain I’ll have to dig through archives to figure out which law that pertained to thank you for the reply

Quote: heatmap

I absolutely saw the connection to that specific machine and it’s the only time I ever heard that rule - I also thought the rule was trashed but I read it somewhere outside of the gaming controls website so I’m almost certain I’ll have to dig through archives to figure out which law that pertained to thank you for the reply

It may have been trashed, I don't know. Like I said this was the 2 year period between when casino opened and when table games were approved. I mean once traditional table games were approved, one players action (taking a card) DOES effect the outcome of another player.

So I don't know if the rule or regulation was changed or eliminated at that point. That was just the time I moved to Las Vegas and stopped following Pennsylvania as closely. But definitely for at least a period they had a rule or regulation that one players action could not effect the outcome of another players hand or bet.

Quote: heatmap

So we have a games called infinite blackjack - pretty sure that one guy who makes never-ending news is the creator of it but not sure

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Yeah, I remember the early BJ machines in PA. They were ShuffleMaster machines, using a large screen monitor showing a dealer who just looked side to side while waiting for players, then snapped to attention when a player inserted money. But even then she was somewhat disconnected from the action. Kinda spooky.

Anyway, as I recall, the discussions here stated that each player, as well as the dealer, used cards coming out of their own six deck shoe. And each hand started with new shoes for everybody. That's how they ensured that no player's actions affected any other player.

Quote: heatmap

So we have a games called infinite blackjack - pretty sure that one guy who makes never ending news is the creator of it but not sure
g]
g]


And we have Stadium Blackjack

g]

------------------------
Both are dealt ALMOST with the same procedure

except one difference - stadium blackjack players get to use the next cards as they come out for their hand

infinite blackjack DOES NOT

-------------------------

Heres an example - we have a "shuffled shoe" of cards

Shoe : 5432TJQKA

Infinite blackjack hands are dealt out like this :

Good Player : 53T
Bad Player : 53TJ (player hit his 18 because hes bad at this game)
Dealer with good player: 42JQ
Dealer with bad player : 42QK

Stadium blackjack hands are dealt like this :

Good player : 53T
Bad Player : 53TJ
Dealer with good player :42JQ
Dealer with bad player : 42TJ

------------------------------------------

the only reason im asking this question is because there are some really REALLy bad players in PA who will split tens and hit a soft 20

the "rule variation" is that on stadium the players who "play optimally" do not get affected if a bad player makes a bad move because they always get the next card as the infinite blackjack players must wait till all people are done acting "badly" and are always affecting the other players because they are using up the cards that the dealer normally would have gotten

is there a HA associated with the differences in rules

The Wiz has said many times that bad players don't effect the overall odds that the casino has. A bad player can just as easily take a card that would make the dealers hand.

Quote: kewlj

"No players actions can effect another player" is written into Pennsylvania law in some fashion. I forget the exact wording.

The point of this is that in Kenny Uston's legal win resulted from the Supreme Court of PA ruling that casinos were not allowed to offer games where the skill factor was greater than the luck factor. Ergo, blackjack is a game of luck so Kenny can play. Essentially, if a casino offers it, then it is a game of luck. Crazy and backwards logic.

Here is the wording from the 1983 ruling: “for a game to constitute gambling, it must be a game where chance predominates rather than skill.”

More recently:

https://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/8811-more-luck-than-skill-in-poker-pennsylvania-court-claims

My definition of luck would be that any decision my dog could make would have the same EV as any decision I could make. Baccarat, roulette, craps, slots, keno etc. are dog=person games. Blackjack, not so much. Even learning a few basic-strategy decisions constitutes skill.