Blackjack Team

Greetings everyone!

So with the Covid-19 shutdown, my blackjack career has been on hold since March. It's been tough, but the one upside is that I've been able to spend lots of time with my little girl. I am thinking I will most likely wait until the beginning of next year to get back to playing, plenty of time to figure things out and by then hopefully the worst of this virus will have run its course.

I've been reevaluating when and how to return to the game and one of the options I've been considering is starting up a small blackjack team. Ive played with a partner before but never a well organized team. I was thinking of reaching out to experienced card counters to start a team of roughly 5 players, all contributing the same amount with an even split of profits between players and even say so of how the team should operate. Admittedly, I am not the most social person and have not built many relationships with AP's. It's hard to find people that you can trust, for this reason I think many players opt to play strictly solo.

I am wondering if any of you guys have ever been part of any kind of AP team? If so, I would love to hear some of your thoughts and experiences on the subject!

Hope all you guys have been doing well!

- Omega

I saw the movie 21 (2008) on Netflix recently. GAME OVER!

Quote: ChumpChange

I saw the movie 21 (2008) on Netflix recently. GAME OVER!

That movie is filled with so much BS.

No AP would give their chips to hookers they barely knew to cash out.

The leader literally says it's too suspicious if a bunch of grown men cash out tens of thousands of dollars so they opt for the, ahem, less suspicious strippers in full regalia all lined up behind one another.

The list could go on and on with that film

Quote: darkoz

That movie is filled with so much BS.

No AP would give their chips to hookers they barely knew to cash out.

The leader literally says it's too suspicious if a bunch of grown men cash out tens of thousands of dollars so they opt for the, ahem, less suspicious strippers in full regalia all lined up behind one another.

The list could go on and on with that film

It was a movie! And Hollywood takes liberties with the truth in movies. lol.

I began my blackjack career in 2004. The Movie "21" came out in spring of 2006. I remember thinking this was going to be terrible for a young struggling counter like me. Would draw a lot of attention and the casinos would tighten up. The opposite happened. The next several years were a boom for casinos in terms of blackjack. Thousands of want-a-be card counters, with neither the knowledge, nor bankroll to win. These people knew just enough to lose their shirt and rather quickly. I later learned very similar had happened in the 60's just after Thorp's book "Beat the dealer" came out.

Quote: theOmega623

Greetings everyone!

So with the Covid-19 shutdown, my blackjack career has been on hold since March. It's been tough, but the one upside is that I've been able to spend lots of time with my little girl. I am thinking I will most likely wait until the beginning of next year to get back to playing, plenty of time to figure things out and by then hopefully the worst of this virus will have run its course.

I've been reevaluating when and how to return to the game and one of the options I've been considering is starting up a small blackjack team. Ive played with a partner before but never a well organized team. I was thinking of reaching out to experienced card counters to start a team of roughly 5 players, all contributing the same amount with an even split of profits between players and even say so of how the team should operate. Admittedly, I am not the most social person and have not built many relationships with AP's. It's hard to find people that you can trust, for this reason I think many players opt to play strictly solo.

I am wondering if any of you guys have ever been part of any kind of AP team? If so, I would love to hear some of your thoughts and experiences on the subject!

Hope all you guys have been doing well!

- Omega

I applaud you for taking time away from blackjack and the casinos and spending it with your little girl. Casinos are a petri dish for germs and viruses. Very bad environment for a time like this. The last think you want to do is bring this virus home to family and your little girl.

I shutdown my play in March as well, about a week and a half before casinos shutdown. And then I got covid-19 in April, so I was anxious to get back when they re-opened here in Vegas on June 4. I though having had the virus, I would have protection and immunity. Looks like that is less and less true each day. Looks like immunity lasts weeks to several months rather than years.

So I went back to the casinos June 4 and decided to shutdown again a week and a half later, when I could see people weren't taking masks and precautions seriously. When I weigh risk vs reward, it is just not worth it right now for me, as I do have a pre-existing heart condition and have had 2 heart surgeries. I plan to re-evaluate things next month, but in all likelihood, I am done playing blackjack for this year as well. I have been briefly visiting casinos twice a week to cash out free play. That will run out in another month or two as offers diminish.

So on to your question about team play. I have been recruited and offered to join several teams, including one pretty known team years ago, just after I moved to Vegas. I declined. There are some issues and dangers with team play. First there are teams that now use disposable players. You join, play, burn out your face in a year and then they are done with you and you have a harder time playing even solo after. You should decide if that is worth it to you and If you are looking at card counting long-term thing.

Second issue with teams is trust. ALL blackjack teams have issues with trust. Card counting play is naturally high variance and when someone hits a fairly normal negative run, the worst of human nature emerges and first thought is that player is skimming from the team.

I decided long ago, that any team play I did would be with very close friends that I trust completely, would trust with everything I have, because that is what you are doing. My brother and I formed a two man team, or partnership, using the EMFH play style rather than the call in style, several years ago when he moved to Las Vegas and started playing. We played together 2 years and I thought it was great for both of us, but he decided he wanted to play solo.

For anyone who doesn't know, the EMFH team is players playing separately but sharing bankroll and results. This has two benefits. One you can play larger stakes on a combines BR that players might be able to solo. That wasn't our benefit as I have adequate BR. But the second big benefit is it smooths out variance. You get to the "long_term" quicker and usually both players don't hit that long negative run at the same time, which smooths out the ride.

Anyway, just some thoughts and experiences. Take care and good luck during these times.

KJ

Quote: darkoz

That movie is filled with so much BS.

No AP would give their chips to hookers they barely knew to cash out.

The leader literally says it's too suspicious if a bunch of grown men cash out tens of thousands of dollars so they opt for the, ahem, less suspicious strippers in full regalia all lined up behind one another.

The list could go on and on with that film

I believe the chips story is also told in the book, although I'm sure the movie played it up for effect. I'd think many escorts get chips as compensation. There is a story I read in a book on Vegas about a " billionaire" hosting a party and handing out chocolate chips like they were playthings and only later were the chips discovered to be obsolete. It was a horrible movie.

Anyone thinking of starting a team should read T.K. Kenyon's "The Law of Large Numbers". It's a short cautionary tale about the problems of such a team and one mans unique solution to the problems.
Best of luck.

Thank you for your response Kewlj!

As much as I hated to quit playing for the year nothing is more important to me than keeping my family safe. I've had a somewhat similar experience playing with a partner, I played the same style of team play with one of my closest friends for a couple years, we would take trips together and play separately on a shared bankroll. It was low stakes, we combined to make a small bankroll ($5k) and it went well. He is somebody I trust 100%, it was alot of fun and we did end up nearly doubling the bankroll but the problem was that I was available to play much more often than him and eventually he became too busy. It obviously would have been much more lucrative with a bank of around $25k - $50k, but not everyone is comfortable with that level of play even if they have the funds. I appreciate you sharing your experience!

Thanks for the response and the book recommendation billryan! I'll definitely check it out.

Kewl
You mentioned on another thread you were considering leaving vegas and buying some property about 90 minutes away. What about your blackjack career? How would you make a living?

Quote: vegas

Kewl
You mentioned on another thread you were considering leaving vegas and buying some property about 90 minutes away. What about your blackjack career? How would you make a living?

90 miles isn't that far to commute to Vegas a couple times a week. For 5 and a half years I lived in Philadelphia and commuted to Atlantic City to play. (This was before Pa had table games). Most blackjack AP's do a lot of travel all over the country.

But....I am probably not going to make that move right now.

Quote: kewlj

90 miles isn't that far to commute to Vegas a couple times a week. For 5 and a half years I lived in Philadelphia and commuted to Atlantic City to play. (This was before Pa had table games). Most blackjack AP's do a lot of travel all over the country.

But....I am probably not going to make that move right now.

90 miles is 90 minutes each way. And then you hit and run several casinos in a row? That's a lot of commuting miles. But they would be tax deductible on your Schedule C.

Once you get out of Vegas, it's a 75 MPH speed limit that few observe.

For me personally, the biggest benefit to playing with a partner is having someone to travel with and share the experience. Another idea I've had is to form a team of players who are currently operating solo just to have some comradery, keeping bankrolls separate and just traveling, sharing info and helping eachother. Of course the main point of a team is having a shared bankroll, but I think building trust with a group of players could be a great way to maybe get there eventually.

The idea of equal investment is good, the idea of equal pay without regard to amount of work or EV generated is bad and is asking for bad feelings to develop or for more productive and hard working players not to play on such a team. Some will be able to and have the desire to work more unless you limit them. I’d recommend some amount of the pay based on investment and some amount based on work, what the right balance of that is is debatable and depends on the makeup of a specific team, depends much on how important the investment is for players being able to generate the EV and perhaps how long team has been together (probably less capital risk if players together longer know they can trust each other.) If you have hard working and capable players willing and able to invest more than the equal percentage then too much of the split going to investment will dilute their earnings and there’s not much incentive for them to be on a team in that structure.

I play solo but have played on structures between 50/50 and 80/20, within the same team. All investors were always players and always had equal investment. Went back from 80/20 to 70-30 towards the end but the more player heavy structure came after players had played together for a few years, everyone had made at least 200k and the investment was less important to ability to generate EV. There were a couple full time players and we had stats for $ earned per EV generated, they became lopsided over time with players playing unequal amounts and it simply would not have made sense for most productive players to remain without an adjustment in pay structure.

Quote: mcallister3200

The idea of equal investment is good, the idea of equal pay without regard to amount of work or EV generated is bad and is asking for bad feelings to develop or for more productive and hard working players not to play on such a team. Some will be able to and have the desire to work more unless you limit them. I’d recommend some amount of the pay based on investment and some amount based on work, what the right balance of that is is debatable and depends on the makeup of a specific team, depends much on how important the investment is for players being able to generate the EV and perhaps how long team has been together (probably less capital risk if players together longer know they can trust each other.) If you have hard working and capable players willing and able to invest more than the equal percentage then too much of the split going to investment will dilute their earnings and there’s not much incentive for them to be on a team in that structure.

I play solo but have played on structures between 50/50 and 80/20, within the same team. All investors were always players and always had equal investment. Went back from 80/20 to 70-30 towards the end but the more player heavy structure came after players had played together for a few years, everyone had made at least 200k and the investment was less important to ability to generate EV. There were a couple full time players and we had stats for $ earned per EV generated, they became lopsided over time with players playing unequal amounts and it simply would not have made sense for most productive players to remain without an adjustment in pay structure.

I absolutely agree!

Thanks for your response mcallister3200, that's interesting.

When I played on a shared bankroll with my friend, we played the same system and the same amount of time so it made sense to have an even split. The problem I ran into was that I was taking many more trips, I would play on a shared bankroll with him and then my own bankroll when taking solo trips. We would spread $5 - $50 when playing on a trip together, then I would spread $25 - $250 playing on my own bankroll. While I enjoyed the trips with him much more, it really didn't make sense for me to play smaller stakes and generate less EV.

You should both have played $25-$250 and have a bankroll split of 80%-20% or whatever percentage of the bankroll he can come up with.
You would both played the same levels, but you get 80% of the results (win or lose) and you are responsible for 80% of the expenses.
It doesn't make sense to play smaller stakes and generate less EV for you because he cannot commit for the same amount.
If on the other side you weren't 100% sure of his level of competence, then even at $5-$50 it wouldn't make sense to team up with this player.

Quote: GMan

You should both have played $25-$250 and have a bankroll split of 80%-20% or whatever percentage of the bankroll he can come up with.
You would both played the same levels, but you get 80% of the results (win or lose) and you are responsible for 80% of the expenses.
It doesn't make sense to play smaller stakes and generate less EV for you because he cannot commit for the same amount.
If on the other side you weren't 100% sure of his level of competence, then even at $5-$50 it wouldn't make sense to team up with this player.

Yes I agree that would have been better.

I have a question maybe one of you guys might be able to answer: Do you know if it is legal to use a spy cam while playing? I did a Google search but couldn't really find a definitive answer. I was thinking that live streaming all blackjack play through a spy cam would be a way to both evaluate team members play and know for sure how much each player wins or loses, anyone had this idea? I had assumed it was illegal to use any device while playing.

Quote: theOmega623

I have a question maybe one of you guys might be able to answer: Do you know if it is legal to use a spy cam while playing? I did a Google search but couldn't really find a definitive answer. I was thinking that live streaming all blackjack play through a spy cam would be a way to both evaluate team members play and know for sure how much each player wins or loses, anyone had this idea? I had assumed it was illegal to use any device while playing.

I would say yes no matter what but if were getting technical, if the spy cam is connected to a computer that allows you to statistically remember and analyze the cards that have come out YES, but i am not a lawyer so dont quote me but NO if its just a camera recording play.

There are a FEW people on youtube who risk their (livelihoods?) who play games on hidden cameras.

Buuuuuut. If your like the SlotLady on Youtube, you could PAY a casino to let you film. Must be hard to do though. Casinos dont want you to film at all usually and i think its more of a privacy thing for the OTHER people who are there. You have to point the cameras down and you cant get the dealers face in... youtube has an automated face blur tool though so that shouldnt be a problem.

i say go for it. but you better have every step planned out.

It has to be small.

you need a battery (those are small these days)

it needs to be embedded in your clothing, so they have to destroy your clothing to get to it - they wont want to do that

and it needs to be able to be disconnected from the battery easily so you can say the battery is for charging your phone.

if i didnt already have this planned i wouldnt be telling you this stuff but i figured i would give you a head start because it wasnt hard to think about that basic stuff. Im way ahead of you - as well as many other people.

https://web.archive.org/web/20050216091208/http://www.casey-computer.com/

That link is an archive of what the "most popular" computers used to do. and the device laws are modeled after these computers from what i understand.

Quote: heatmap

I would say yes no matter what but if were getting technical, if the spy cam is connected to a computer that allows you to statistically remember and analyze the cards that have come out YES, but i am not a lawyer so dont quote me but NO if its just a camera recording play.

There are a FEW people on youtube who risk their (livelihoods?) who play games on hidden cameras.

Buuuuuut. If your like the SlotLady on Youtube, you could PAY a casino to let you film. Must be hard to do though. Casinos dont want you to film at all usually and i think its more of a privacy thing for the OTHER people who are there. You have to point the cameras down and you cant get the dealers face in... youtube has an automated face blur tool though so that shouldnt be a problem.

i say go for it. but you better have every step planned out.

It has to be small.

you need a battery (those are small these days)

it needs to be embedded in your clothing, so they have to destroy your clothing to get to it - they wont want to do that

and it needs to be able to be disconnected from the battery easily so you can say the battery is for charging your phone.

if i didnt already have this planned i wouldnt be telling you this stuff but i figured i would give you a head start because it wasnt hard to think about that basic stuff. Im way ahead of you - as well as many other people.

https://web.archive.org/web/20050216091208/http://www.casey-computer.com/

That link is an archive of what the "most popular" computers used to do. and the device laws are modeled after these computers from what i understand.

Thanks for the response and information heatmap! I was thinking just for the purpose of allowing the members or managers of a team to go back and evaluate your play and results if they felt necessary. Just to ensure the play and results are reported correctly, not in any way as a device that helps you play. Let's say you were part of a rather large blackjack team, 10 or 15 members on a $100k - $200k bankroll. After test-outs, planning and all that, each player would live stream every session of play and know that the way they play and their results can be viewed by the team at any time. Therefore eliminating the possibility of skimming, false reports on playing time, or incorrect playing decisions.

I am going to say using a spy cam is against casino regulations, as it is posted that you can not even take pictures on the casino floor without permission (although everyone takes jackpot pictures) and that it might be more than just against casino policy and actually illegal, due to the rather broad "device laws".

Now of course you will argue that you are not using the cam to cheat (holecard) or gain an advantage, but that argument is going to fall on deaf ears at least initially.

I get your intent, but I am going to say more trouble than it is worth.

I suppose news anchors can use spy glasses because they are working on an undercover story of penny ante cheating.

You mentioned variance. This is what my graph looks like after 1000 hours. I dont think i would teach friends to count. Because it takes alot of patience, time, faith and bankroll to keep playing. If you spend too much on hotels. You’ll break even. I did.



I dont know when I will find the time to play again.

The policy for MOST news operations is this:

With a fully exposed camera you can shoot on private property UNTIL you are told to stop.

With a hidden or undercover camera or microphone you'd better have clearance from the boss and the legal department and a damn good reason. LOL

Can reporters get surveillance footage to identify casino patrons, or is that only in the case of a major crime?

I was at a Target store in 1997 just hours before a kidnapping at the store and I figure the media was all over the surveillance footage. Makes me think someone was kidnapped just so the media could get me on surveillance footage.

this guy is able to film his blackjacks sessions



and this is slot lady who is on here apparently

...

pay the casino... just ask it couldnt hurt either

Quote: ChumpChange

Can reporters get surveillance footage to identify casino patrons, or is that only in the case of a major crime?

Reporters get what they can get. Sometimes a company will release videos and sometimes they won't. Sometimes the police get videos and then they can become public. Sometimes videos are locked and you need a freedom of information request to get them and a court order.

The press has no special entitlements to evidence.

Where the press does have protection includes shielding sources and informants.

I once testified for a defendant in a rape case. My testimony concerned the length of his hair. I testified it was short. The victim said it was long.

The defendant and I had an encounter the morning before the alleged rape. The point of my testimony was that his hair couldn't grow so much in only a few hours.

The DA during his cross examination asked me how I happened to meet the defendant that morning?

I sat there and said nothing and I looked at the Judge.

Then the DA said, question withdrawn.

Now I can talk about it. The defendant met me to ask for help because the police were looking for him IN A DIFFERENT RAPE CASE. He needed help to get a lawyer.

There is a card counter / youtuber who goes by the name Dark Star that uses a spy cam while he plays, has quite alot of play uploaded on YouTube under "my real blackjack life". I'm going to message him and ask him if he's looked into the legality of what he's doing.

Quote: theOmega623

There is a card counter / youtuber who goes by the name Dark Star that uses a spy cam while he plays, has quite alot of play uploaded on YouTube under "my real blackjack life". I'm going to message him and ask him if he's looked into the legality of what he's doing.

Here comes the question of "legality" again.

Do you mean legal under state or federal or tribal law, or do you mean permitted under casino rules?

At Harrah's Resort Southern California there is a brass plate outside the main casino door that specifically says recording video is not permitted. This is a Tribal casino managed by Caesars. I've never had a problem taking photos. But I never tried shooting video. I suspect the video rule is Tribal. I dont know of any State law that prohibits shooting video with the permission of the property owner.

I know that many YouTubers have casino permission to do their programs. Usually there are also rules about what can and can't be shown.

Slotlady for example is given specific rules by El Cortez to shoot her programs at slots and at tables.

By the way, I'm the only TV reporter ever to get permission to shoot video inside the Federal Reserve Branch Banks in Miami and Los Angeles and I had to promise not to reveal certain security features to get that permission. I still won't reveal them even though years have passed. I will only say dont even think about robbing the joints.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Reporters get what they can get. Sometimes a company will release videos and sometimes they won't. Sometimes the police get videos and then they can become public. Sometimes videos are locked and you need a freedom of information request to get them and a court order.

The press has no special entitlements to evidence.

Where the press does have protection includes shielding sources and informants.

I once testified for a defendant in a rape case. My testimony concerned the length of his hair. I testified it was short. The victim said it was long.

The defendant and I had an encounter the morning before the alleged rape. The point of my testimony was that his hair couldn't grow so much in only a few hours.

The DA during his cross examination asked me how I happened to meet the defendant that morning?

I sat there and said nothing and I looked at the Judge.

Then the DA said, question withdrawn.

Now I can talk about it. The defendant met me to ask for help because the police were looking for him IN A DIFFERENT RAPE CASE. He needed help to get a lawyer.

Alan, interesting story. Thanks for sharing. One question if you don’t mind asking. It sounds like the defendant wasn’t meeting you in your capacity as a reporter, and was not a “source” or “informant” during the meeting in question. Fair or not? Just curious about the breadth of the journalistic protection and whether if the prosecutor had pushed his question if you might have been forced to answer.

Quote: unJon

Alan, interesting story. Thanks for sharing. One question if you don’t mind asking. It sounds like the defendant wasn’t meeting you in your capacity as a reporter, and was not a “source” or “informant” during the meeting in question. Fair or not? Just curious about the breadth of the journalistic protection and whether if the prosecutor had pushed his question if you might have been forced to answer.

Of course he was talking to me as a reporter. I'll give you more info.

I was the daytime reporter at Channel 5 in Syracuse. It was my first TV job. It was a Saturday. As the daytime reporter I had to go to five or six different events. One story would be my main story for the 6pm news, and the others might be just to shoot some video or to do a quick interview with a politician or at some community protest.

It was at an art show in North Syracuse that this vagrant looking guy came up to me. He says "are you a reporter?" I said yes. And he says "I need help. The cops are looking for me. I've been accused of raping this woman."

We chatted briefly and I told him I would help him find a lawyer. He didnt have a phone so I gave him a piece of paper with my phone number. I told him to call me.

He didnt call, but a couple of weeks later a lawyer called me to ask if I remembered talking to a man at the North Syracuse art show. The lawyer asked me to describe him. I gave him a detailed description and when I mentioned the length of his hair and his short sideburns the lawyer stopped me. That's when he said "I need you to repeat that in court."

I talked to my news director... Andy Brigham who in the 1970s was a famous investigative journalist, and he said we have an obligation to give this guy a fair chance in court... and I testified.

His lawyer specifically wanted me to testify because I had correctly described how he looked including his clothing and hair without prompting. I was blessed with a remarkable memory. Even to this day, some 44 years later, I remember exactly what he looked like even the beat up knee length dark green trenchcoat he was wearing.

The bottom line is he approached me as a reporter.

Your memory can't be that good, you think you saw 18 yos in a row at a craps table.

Quote: darkoz

That movie is filled with so much ....The list could go on and on with that film

pure Hollywood, but most important is that the nearby Indian casion cleaned them out. despite their couting skills.

Basically, I am thinking of worse case scenario here. For example, you get caught counting and you are approached by security and they want to detain you. We all know that normally they have no legal right to do this, all they can do is ask you to leave and not return or trespass you. On the extremely rare occasion, counters have been forced to a back room and interrogated. Most counters will never experience anything like this, but on the extreme off chance they did and found your hidden cam could you be charged with cheating using a device?

Quote: theOmega623

, but on the extreme off chance they did and found your hidden cam could you be charged with cheating using a device?

In my opinion, you could be charged. Would it stick? that is another matter. But it would cost you money and time to find out and that is where the whole thing just isn't worth it to me.

Now, you do raise an interesting point in this day and age of body cams and protecting oneself. but just not worth it to me. If you want to go this route, there are recording apps on your phone, which would allow you to start recording in the event of a backroom or illegal detention. And of course you should have a game plan as to what you would do in the event of such a situation. If you are playing Vegas, that plan should include having Mr. Nersesian on speed dial.

I personally have never made it to a backroom situation. I'll repeat the story of the one time I came close. It was probably 12-13 years ago, before I moved to Vegas. I was here for a month playing. I was playing the strip and was backed off and surrounded by a couple suits and security and told to accompany them. As we turned down a hallway leading off the floor, I told one of the suits I wanted to call my attorney, Bob Nersesian. At mention of Bob's name, the entire party came to a halt. One of the suits spun around, glared at me for 5 second which seemed like years and scowled "go on get out of here". I think I may still hold the world record for 50 yard dash to the door. LOL!

By the way, I didn't know Mr. Nersesian at the time, nor had ever spoken to him. When I relayed that story to him years later, he tells me he should bill me for that incident.

Are you in Vegas, Omega? Wherever you play, you should have some sort of pre-planned idea of how you would handle a backroom situation. In Vegas, backrooming has become almost non existent now a days, in no small part because of Mr. Nersesian, but you do have casinos employing security that are completely unqualified and incompetent, and every once in a while you read about a case, so I would have a plan. Other, newer states and jurisdictions are a little behind Las Vegas in learning these lessons, and you still read about cases as they learn their lessons. Always have a plan.

Quote: kewlj

In my opinion, you could be charged. Would it stick? that is another matter. But it would cost you money and time to find out and that is where the whole thing just isn't worth it to me.

Now, you do raise an interesting point in this day and age of body cams and protecting oneself. but just not worth it to me. If you want to go this route, there are recording apps on your phone, which would allow you to start recording in the event of a backroom or illegal detention. And of course you should have a game plan as to what you would do in the event of such a situation. If you are playing Vegas, that plan should include having Mr. Nersesian on speed dial.

I personally have never made it to a backroom situation. I'll repeat the story of the one time I came close. It was probably 12-13 years ago, before I moved to Vegas. I was here for a month playing. I was playing the strip and was backed off and surrounded by a couple suits and security and told to accompany them. As we turned down a hallway leading off the floor, I told one of the suits I wanted to call my attorney, Bob Nersesian. At mention of Bob's name, the entire party came to a halt. One of the suits spun around, glared at me for 5 second which seemed like years and scowled "go on get out of here". I think I may still hold the world record for 50 yard dash to the door. LOL!

By the way, I didn't know Mr. Nersesian at the time, nor had ever spoken to him. When I relayed that story to him years later, he tells me he should bill me for that incident.

Are you in Vegas, Omega? Wherever you play, you should have some sort of pre-planned idea of how you would handle a backroom situation. In Vegas, backrooming has become almost non existent now a days, in no small part because of Mr. Nersesian, but you do have casinos employing security that are completely unqualified and incompetent, and every once in a while you read about a case, so I would have a plan. Other, newer states and jurisdictions are a little behind Las Vegas in learning these lessons, and you still read about cases as they learn their lessons. Always have a plan.

Thanks for the input Kewlj! Always like to hear stories of personal experience from players, and yes alot of my play is in Vegas. I am honestly not worried for myself, I worked as a security guard for many years and I know full well what my rights are as a card counter, security certainly has to answer for their use of force and I think the vast majority of casinos these days know better. I would never voluntarily be back roomed or consent to search, they would have to physically force me and im aware that this type of thing is basically extinct when it comes to casinos and card counters these days, mostly due to Bob Nersesian. I listened to him on GWAE, it's important to know what you can and cant do as an AP. More than anything, I would want to reassure any players I might partner with that they are not doing anything illegal by wearing a spy cam. I cant help but feel that live streaming play in some way could pave the way for large teams of AP's to group together without fear of being ripped off.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Do you mean legal under state or federal or tribal law, or do you mean permitted under casino rules?

Do tribal law take precedence over state and federal law? Or is it Federal -> state & tribal

Quote: theOmega623

Thanks for the input Kewlj! Always like to hear stories of personal experience from players, and yes alot of my play is in Vegas. I am honestly not worried for myself, I worked as a security guard for many years and I know full well what my rights are as a card counter, security certainly has to answer for their use of force and I think the vast majority of casinos these days know better. I would never voluntarily be back roomed or consent to search, they would have to physically force me and im aware that this type of thing is basically extinct when it comes to casinos and card counters these days, mostly due to Bob Nersesian. I listened to him on GWAE, it's important to know what you can and cant do as an AP. More than anything, I would want to reassure any players I might partner with that they are not doing anything illegal by wearing a spy cam. I cant help but feel that live streaming play in some way could pave the way for large teams of AP's to group together without fear of being ripped off.

like i said embed the camera in your clothing. There are plenty of hidden cameras on amazon that will suffice tbh and they sell ones that look like buttons on clothing. And the expensive cameras that are for security purposes, are like 1000 times the price PER camera that you could buy on amazon, and if one breaks its so much cheaper. Youll end up with broken ones that you have parts from others to fix with.

The only thing about the amazon ones are quality of picture. So you said that you need to simply just review what happens, so quality shouldnt be that much of a priority, because usually when you want to go SMALL you have to sacrifice quality of the image.



The smallest cheapest spy camera censors of the cameras on amazon are max .5in x .5in x .5in - which is actually kind of big

Quote: heatmap

like i said embed the camera in your clothing. There are plenty of hidden cameras on amazon that will suffice tbh and they sell ones that look like buttons on clothing. And the expensive cameras that are for security purposes, are like 1000 times the price PER camera that you could buy on amazon, and if one breaks its so much cheaper. Youll end up with broken ones that you have parts from others to fix with.

The only thing about the amazon ones are quality of picture. So you said that you need to simply just review what happens, so quality shouldnt be that much of a priority, because usually when you want to go SMALL you have to sacrifice quality of the image.



The smallest cheapest spy camera censors of the cameras on amazon are max .5in x .5in x .5in - which is actually kind of big

Thanks heatmap! I think using an embedded cam is a great idea!

Quote: theOmega623

Quote: heatmap

like i said embed the camera in your clothing. There are plenty of hidden cameras on amazon that will suffice tbh and they sell ones that look like buttons on clothing. And the expensive cameras that are for security purposes, are like 1000 times the price PER camera that you could buy on amazon, and if one breaks its so much cheaper. Youll end up with broken ones that you have parts from others to fix with.

The only thing about the amazon ones are quality of picture. So you said that you need to simply just review what happens, so quality shouldnt be that much of a priority, because usually when you want to go SMALL you have to sacrifice quality of the image.



The smallest cheapest spy camera censors of the cameras on amazon are max .5in x .5in x .5in - which is actually kind of big

Thanks heatmap! I think using an embedded cam is a great idea!

just remember that the one i showed you is a computer

Quote: heatmap

Do tribal law take precedence over state and federal law? Or is it Federal -> state & tribal

It depends on the law and if there's a crime or a lawsuit.
On this I suggest going to a lawyer who knows.

I will say this... tribal casinos can be sued in federal court and they can be held accountablle in state courts because of their compacts. They are not above the law with all that "sovereign nation" stuff.

I am thinking of getting together a small group of players, maybe 4 or 5, to give it a try. Perhaps small stakes on a trial basis, each player plays with their own money and live streams their play. So I'm thinking for example, something like this..

5 players: Each with $5,000 of their own stake.
Team Bankroll: $25,000
Each player plays an agreed upon number of hours or shoes, let's say 1,000 shoes each.
Game: 2D H17, at least 60% pen.
System: Hi-Lo Ill 18 , $25 - $250 spread (-2 wong out).
Each player live streams their play and it is saved.
Once 5,000 shoes of play has been reached by the team OR the bankroll is doubled, profits are split evenly.
Obviously any team member that suffers a big loss would need to have funds redistributed to them, for this each member could view the play if they wish and then would all provide a percentage to the player to stay in play.

This is just an example, could be a lesser amount to start out with. Could also do a live stream of play for each player as a 'test out' for other team members to view. What do you guys think?

Quote: AlanMendelson

It depends on the law and if there's a crime or a lawsuit.
On this I suggest going to a lawyer who knows.

I will say this... tribal casinos can be sued in federal court and they can be held accountablle in state courts because of their compacts. They are not above the law with all that "sovereign nation" stuff.

This is completely opposite what Bob Nersessian says and the experience of most AP's with grounds for cause on tribal land

Can you provide some evidence for this?

Quote: AlanMendelson

I will say this... tribal casinos can be sued in federal court and they can be held accountablle in state courts because of their compacts. They are not above the law with all that "sovereign nation" stuff.

It used to be thought or assumed that Tribal land was sovereign and US laws didn't apply. But that was never really the case. Someone on tribal land committed a murder and federal or state authorities could and would go get them. Now for lesser crimes, yeah, they allowed the "tribe" to handle most of those things, but that was just a courtesy.

But when you start building casinos and inviting people in to play, things change (or should have). Any claim of a crime, stealing, illegal detention ect, is a claim against the tribe. Having tribal law handle these things is like the old south, where an out of towner would get a speeding ticket on the outskirts of town by the corrupt sheriff and be hauled into court in front of the sheriff's brother-in-law who happens to be the Judge.

I remember about 10 years ago on the blackjack forums, just about the time I relocated to Vegas, all the rage was the games in the Midwest at Indian Casinos. That is where all the blackjack card counters and AP's were flocking to. Games that were still S17 with low house edges and deep penetration to boot. But after a couple years these guys began to realize they either weren't winning at all or weren't winning any where near what these great conditions indicated they should.

Bottom line, you remove a few Aces and/or replace them with 4's or 5's and this great 6 deck game with a .4% house advantage become a game with a 1.5% house advantage, which becomes pretty hard.....not impossible, but much harder to win against via card counting. And the players....well they had little or no recourse because the tribal casinos were free to do what they wanted on their land.

That is why I have always balked at these tribal casinos and their "better" conditions. Give me a game that is actually regulated and I know what recourse I have any day. Tribal casinos and everything involved is just too "murky" for my liking.

Quote: theOmega623

I am thinking of getting together a small group of players, maybe 4 or 5, to give it a try. Perhaps small stakes on a trial basis, each player plays with their own money and live streams their play. So I'm thinking for example, something like this..

5 players: Each with $5,000 of their own stake.
Team Bankroll: $25,000
Each player plays an agreed upon number of hours or shoes, let's say 1,000 shoes each.
Game: 2D H17, at least 60% pen.
System: Hi-Lo Ill 18 , $25 - $250 spread (-2 wong out).
Each player live streams their play and it is saved.
Once 5,000 shoes of play has been reached by the team OR the bankroll is doubled, profits are split evenly.
Obviously any team member that suffers a big loss would need to have funds redistributed to them, for this each member could view the play if they wish and then would all provide a percentage to the player to stay in play.

This is just an example, could be a lesser amount to start out with. Could also do a live stream of play for each player as a 'test out' for other team members to view. What do you guys think?

What do I think? Well since you asked. :/

I think $25-$250 spread is a pretty big spread for double deck games. ESPECIALLY here in Vegas (where you said you play a lot). In Vegas many DD are what I call "counter traps". If you don't like that term, let's just say hawked closely. I don't think you are going to get 1000 shoes in with that big of a spread, let alone 5 different players doing so.

$5000 bankroll that each player would have is not a lot of BR for a $250 max bet. That is 20 max bets. That is Ok for a number of sessions or even a day or two, but anything longer, and just regular variance can have you down 20 max bets, especially at double deck where the count fluctuates a good deal.

So any 1 player has unusual results, anything suspicious, or just unusual negative variance and you and other team members are going to watch through 1000's of shoes and hours of play? This is going to be very time consuming.

It's a plan, but I don't think a great plan. But maybe you can make it work.

Quote: kewlj

What do I think? Well since you asked. :/

I think $25-$250 spread is a pretty big spread for double deck games. ESPECIALLY here in Vegas (where you said you play a lot). In Vegas many DD are what I call "counter traps". If you don't like that term, let's just say hawked closely. I don't think you are going to get 1000 shoes in with that big of a spread, let alone 5 different players doing so.

$5000 bankroll that each player would have is not a lot of BR for a $250 max bet. That is 20 max bets. That is Ok for a number of sessions or even a day or two, but anything longer, and just regular variance can have you down 20 max bets, especially at double deck where the count fluctuates a good deal.

So any 1 player has unusual results, anything suspicious, or just unusual negative variance and you and other team members are going to watch through 1000's of shoes and hours of play? This is going to be very time consuming.

It's a plan, but I don't think a great plan. But maybe you can make it work.

Thanks for the feedback Kewlj!

So as for the 1-10 spread on double deck, I have personally had no problem at all with this spread at many places in Vegas. I will sometimes play at a $10 or $15 table just to avoid playing alone but many times I have spread that at a $25 table playing heads up. Players may experience backoffs, but that to me is just part of the game.

As for the $250 max bet, I do agree that may be a little much starting out and that's why I mentioned possibly playing lesser stakes to start. Perhaps $10 - $100 spread with the same BR would be better. I'm thinking the only time play would actually be watched is if members suspected something was off. My thinking was that players knowing their play could be viewed by the team would keep them honest.

Let me know if you have any suggestions, at this point I'm just sort of thinking out loud through the forum. Not exactly sure how it would work best.

Quote: theOmega623

Thanks for the feedback Kewlj!

So as for the 1-10 spread on double deck, I have personally had no problem at all with this spread at many places in Vegas. I will sometimes play at a $10 or $15 table just to avoid playing alone but many times I have spread that at a $25 table playing heads up. Players may experience backoffs, but that to me is just part of the game.

As for the $250 max bet, I do agree that may be a little much starting out and that's why I mentioned possibly playing lesser stakes to start. Perhaps $10 - $100 spread with the same BR would be better. I'm thinking the only time play would actually be watched is if members suspected something was off. My thinking was that players knowing their play could be viewed by the team would keep them honest.

Let me know if you have any suggestions, at this point I'm just sort of thinking out loud through the forum. Not exactly sure how it would work best.

Are there many double deck games at a $10 minimum in Las Vegas? You won't last an hour at the El Cortez spreading 1-10.

Quote: DRich

Are there many double deck games at a $10 minimum in Las Vegas? You won't last an hour at the El Cortez spreading 1-10.

You can find plenty of double deck games at $5, $10, $15, $25 min in Vegas. Not long ago, I played an entire weekend at a $5 min double deck blackjack table at the Orleans, had no problems. And yeah, every counter knows playing at the El Cortez is a waste of time lol

I just read a blast from the past on the perils of card counting teams. If you google Cigar Afficiando, blackjack teams, the story from the summer of 2003 pops up. I was playing pretty regularly back then and had been approached by someone in Vegas who said he had been watching me play and he was putting together a team. I was flattered but it seemed off. Then I read the article.