heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
  • Threads: 184
  • Posts: 1590
April 30th, 2020 at 3:25:12 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

randomly intermixed



i apologize for continuing but what does randomly intermixed mean? if the law isnt defined mathematically why even bother? this could mean literally anything. to randomize could mean anything. im talking about limits, max and minimums. the slot machine laws for pa are very specific. My question is why are these laws so "lax". Why do they not define what random is mathematically for one machine but decide that this machine is not worth defining laws for? It could be copy and paste IMO?
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 3691
Thanks for this post from:
SanchoPanzarsactuary
April 30th, 2020 at 3:29:56 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

i apologize for continuing but what does randomly intermixed mean? if the law isnt defined mathematically why even bother? this could mean literally anything. to randomize could mean anything. im talking about limits, max and minimums. the slot machine laws for pa are very specific. My question is why are these laws so "lax". Why do they not define what random is mathematically for one machine but decide that this machine is not worth defining laws for? It could be copy and paste IMO?



Why would anyone have to define random when the definition already exists. Just because you don't understand what random means, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
  • Threads: 184
  • Posts: 1590
April 30th, 2020 at 3:43:20 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Why would anyone have to define random when the definition already exists. Just because you don't understand what random means, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.


ZCore13



Then why do they need a definition to begin with for anything else? Why do they differentiate?

In thatís case they would not talk about confidence levels or periods or anything I truly believe you know the scope of your own work but have no clue about whatís beyond the bubble. I personally think the amount of knowledge may be broad and you can probably tell us about many things but you really do not want to see anything past what makes you useful as a worker. There are ways to do things and you canít just employ any random number generator. Every single person who describes any random number generators open up by saying ďthere is no such thing as randomĒ. I respect you for the knowledge and experience you have but you canít answer every question based on the experience you have. I respect your confidence for thinking you can because I also have that confidence but you also see the stuff I say. Sometimes you think you speak the truth but the confidence gets in the way of questioning whether or not you are right, and it for sure limits your ability to want to go out and google if what you say is true or not. Patents will tell you that people think otherwise than yourself. And the patents will tell you the exact way of how to do what you think is impossible. Sometimes you just have to think about he problem at hand and solve it.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 3691
April 30th, 2020 at 3:50:45 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Then why do they need a definition to begin with for anything else? Why do they differentiate?



They don't. The definition already exists. That's how language works. Someone sometime noticed something and then they attached a word to it that ended up sticking. Then, when someone does or incorporates something that falls under that definition, they use the word that describes it.The shuffler manufacturer uses "Random", which means Proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
  • Threads: 212
  • Posts: 8277
April 30th, 2020 at 4:46:30 PM permalink
How is a shuffling machine worth $80 a day? You could have a BMW for the money. It's pretty damned expensive for a simple task imo. I'd think if the manufactures were to be in some conspiracy, they would not answer direct questions, and if they are not they would. Any kind of direct misrepresentation would be a cause for possible punitive damages. I'd just advise asking them and seeing what they're willing to have in writing.
I am a robot.
racquet
racquet
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
  • Threads: 50
  • Posts: 411
April 30th, 2020 at 4:53:01 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

At the end of the day we know pretty much all we need to know:

1) The machines are absolutely capable of identifying each individual card as they shuffle... proof of which is the machine "shuffling" the cards back in to perfect order.
2) Speaking as a programmer, given #1, ANYTHING is then possible with these cards. Whatever you want to call it... "anti-clumping" or "always keep the TC at 0" or whatever you want to call it. That is all absolutely possible...
3) If it's possible... somebody's doing it. The end.



Ah Romes. Another person who frequents this forum for which I have a great deal of respect, but I think in this case you're wearing a tinfoil hat.

I never got detailed answers to my questions about the physical specification of the machine, but I assume that there is some internal physical switch, somewhere, that tells the machine to do a perfect order shuffle v. a random one.

Aside: does the machine have an IP address, making it network-accessible, or is it standalone, requiring someone to physically do something to control its action?

I personally have seen thousands of ASM-dealt shoes. I have seen them run the gamut up to +6 or better. Extremely negative shoes as well, although usually I'm off to the lavatory when they go really bad. A machine that holds the line at +1 or even +2 would be obvious. A casino full of these machines would be more obvious. A company that manufactured such a machine would not get away with it. A single disgruntled employee or one looking for his fifteen minutes of fame would let the cat out of the bag. There would be Youtube videos out there showing exactly how it's done.

Regardless of all of that, and accepting for a moment, as you say, that it's "absolutely possible", so tell me, how's it done? How is the machine jiggered such that it will influence the TC of a deck? I mean - tell me how the hardware - the physical device - is triggered to do that?
TDVegas
TDVegas
Joined: Oct 30, 2018
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 939
April 30th, 2020 at 5:05:46 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

i apologize for continuing but what does randomly intermixed mean? if the law isnt defined mathematically why even bother? this could mean literally anything. to randomize could mean anything. im talking about limits, max and minimums. the slot machine laws for pa are very specific. My question is why are these laws so "lax". Why do they not define what random is mathematically for one machine but decide that this machine is not worth defining laws for? It could be copy and paste IMO?


Cmon, man...random means random. You said the only place you saw random in PA gaming bylaws was in relation to electronic games. I gave you the wording for a table game shuffle from PA gaming laws. It's defined. If you are going to play this game of every word has a hidden agenda or potential for hidden agenda...my only advice would be quit. Play games you feel are on the level.

No amount of wording would satisfy you.
Last edited by: TDVegas on Apr 30, 2020
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
  • Threads: 184
  • Posts: 1590
April 30th, 2020 at 11:46:10 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Cmon, man...random means random. You said the only place you saw random in PA gaming bylaws was in relation to electronic games. I gave you the wording for a table game shuffle from PA gaming laws. It's defined. If you are going to play this game of every word has a hidden agenda or potential for hidden agenda...my only advice would be quit. Play games you feel are on the level.

No amount of wording would satisfy you.



The problem is when you actually start reading the shuffle master court documents you start to see that they care about every word. Every single word is cared about when it comes to the power that is received when a patent is enforced. I canít give these companies leeway if they donít give us leeway. They care about it so much they wonít give up until the other person gives up. They think time will erode what I consistently see. I personally am sure that in the state of Pennsylvania there is something going on and I canít say that it is happening in other states but it seems as if the only thing stopping people from saying what I say is lack of knowledge to describe themselves. You have to be a specialist in game theory and computer science to even start understanding that creating games that are better than a human is very possible. But I know you all know that. You guys claim itís not possible to be in a casino. But I say that it is possible.
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
  • Threads: 56
  • Posts: 2478
May 1st, 2020 at 4:56:10 AM permalink
I saw one card counter on YouTube who jumped table to table and bet big on clumping patterns.
michael99000
michael99000
Joined: Jul 10, 2010
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 2112
Thanks for this post from:
Forager
May 1st, 2020 at 8:58:43 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

The problem is when you actually start reading the shuffle master court documents you start to see that they care about every word. Every single word is cared about when it comes to the power that is received when a patent is enforced. I canít give these companies leeway if they donít give us leeway. They care about it so much they wonít give up until the other person gives up. They think time will erode what I consistently see. I personally am sure that in the state of Pennsylvania there is something going on and I canít say that it is happening in other states but it seems as if the only thing stopping people from saying what I say is lack of knowledge to describe themselves. You have to be a specialist in game theory and computer science to even start understanding that creating games that are better than a human is very possible. But I know you all know that. You guys claim itís not possible to be in a casino. But I say that it is possible.


I still want to know how the machine knows where the player will cut the cards before dealing starts.

  • Jump to: