Joined: Aug 8, 2011
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April 29th, 2020 at 9:12:33 PM permalink
Quote: racquet

Imagine if a six deck shoe were only allowed to be given to the dealer if the TC in that ENTIRE shoe never went above +1. Regardless of where the cut card went when it was placed in the deck by a player, regardless of how many cards each player took or not, for the ENTIRE deck, the count never exceeded +1,

The cut card would not matter, Player decisions would not matter. Penetration would not matter. The count is NEVER going to go over +1. Deal the deck down to the very last card, and the count is never going to go above +1.

What casino would not want to deal that game? If the dealer took the deck and started looking at the cards, face up, to pre-load a shoe that way, would it be ok? But if the machine next to that dealer does the same exact thing, and if the company renting the machine called it "de-clumping technology"...

if i knew the count would NEVER go over +/- 1, i may not want to hit that 3 card 12 against a dealer 6.

the point is, any information, however disadvantageous/advantageous to whoever it may seems, can be used against the casino. only truly random is good for the casino.
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
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April 29th, 2020 at 10:39:13 PM permalink
Quote: andysif

if i knew the count would NEVER go over +/- 1, i may not want to hit that 3 card 12 against a dealer 6.

the point is, any information, however disadvantageous/advantageous to whoever it may seems, can be used against the casino. only truly random is good for the casino.

If I knew the count would NEVER go over +/- 1 I might site at first base and occasionally put a table max bet out.
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
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April 30th, 2020 at 7:27:07 AM permalink
I win the most with negative counts and lose the most on positive counts. I'm not wonging out.
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
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April 30th, 2020 at 7:38:44 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

The term de-clumping is meant to imply that shuffle tracking can't be done. That is clumps of cards that just gone done being played, show up in the same order in the next shoe. The de-clumping it does is randomly shuffle the cards enough times that no group of cards will remain the exact same as they were. There is no level of settings or machine model that can put the cards in any winning/losing combination or order.ZCore13

That does it for me.

"Declumping" means "make sure that the sequence of cards gets mixed up enough such that there's no 'clump' of cards bunched together like they were the last time", and NOT "make sure there are not a 'clump' of tens bunched together, regardless of where they were the last time."

Considering, the first kind of declumping is a purely analog activity. Just mix the cards up without any consideration as to what they are (ten, deuce, ace). A CSM shuffle is just as likely to "declump" a relatively harmless shoe into one that's not. It has no idea where the tens are.

Creating a low-variance shoe, is "digital" declumping. You'd have to keep track of the value of the cards, and sort them into some NON-RANDOM sequence where there are no bunches of cards in sequence that create an extreme TC value.

Quote: Zcore13

It's very easy for casinos to better there odds without cheating. At any time I could have gone to ASM's for more hands per hour, changed some games to 6-5, adjusted side bet and progressive pay tables to hold a higher percentage, increased the minimum bet or side bet amount, adjusted rules to increase house edge, etc. Most casinos dont want to kill their players though. Las Vegas is the exception, not the rule, to take money as fast as you can.ZCore13

The best example of that is, exactly, side bets. I've never seen one where the odds on a side bet are better than the regular game. Anyone who thinks that the side bet is a better deal would be your best customer.

I also am amazed at anyone (like a couple of posters in this very thread) who think where they sit or what they bet would be profitable at a game where the TC will never vary from -1 to +1. You should give those folks a limo ride to your door, every day.

Thanks for the reply, Zcore. Much appreciated.
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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April 30th, 2020 at 10:30:12 AM permalink
Quote: andysif

the point is, any information, however disadvantageous/advantageous to whoever it may seems, can be used against the casino. only truly random is good for the casino.

Not true. If the casino just eliminated all King of Spades', that will be advantageous to the casino. How would you take advantage of that knowledge?
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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April 30th, 2020 at 10:34:54 AM permalink
Quote: racquet

The best example of that is, exactly, side bets. I've never seen one where the odds on a side bet are better than the regular game. =

And yet....
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Joined: Jul 13, 2012
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April 30th, 2020 at 12:07:41 PM permalink
If such a card order existed. It would be groundbreaking Answering this question would help the casinos increase the house edge without changing the rules. Not good for brainstorming
Born in Texas and lived in Texas my whole life.
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Thanks for this post from:
April 30th, 2020 at 2:15:25 PM permalink
At the end of the day we know pretty much all we need to know:

1) The machines are absolutely capable of identifying each individual card as they shuffle... proof of which is the machine "shuffling" the cards back in to perfect order.
2) Speaking as a programmer, given #1, ANYTHING is then possible with these cards. Whatever you want to call it... "anti-clumping" or "always keep the TC at 0" or whatever you want to call it. That is all absolutely possible...

3) If it's possible... somebody's doing it. The end.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Joined: Jul 10, 2010
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April 30th, 2020 at 2:17:24 PM permalink
If I know a machine is keeping the count at 0 after each hand,
Then maybe I can get an advantage sitting at 3rd base of a full table.
Joined: Oct 30, 2018
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April 30th, 2020 at 2:32:35 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I do not doubt your statement. But the only random laws pertaining to outcomes at least that I have seen only pertain to slot machines. I live in Pennsylvania and their laws are apparently very detailed as opposed to normal gaming laws that I have tried to read in other states. I will say again I have gone to the extremes to get the information I want and did not go into the gaming control board unprepared. Our gaming laws are very clear, and the gaming control board lady was very ďflusteredĒ because I knew the exact laws and what they say and she knew I knew what I was talking about. She was so flustered I knew she wasnít lying to me because she wanted me the eff out of there so I could stop bothering these people about rigged gaming equipment. I believed her truly when she said that the shufflers are not held to any percentage performance. She was also the one who ordered the shuffling machines. She also claimed she could open any of the machines at any time and gather the stats out of it and check whatever the outputs and stats if she wanted to but she wasnít going to because what I claimed was not happening.

Just show me a law pertaining to the legality and laws that claim anything about shuffler and what itís supposed to do and what itís not supposed to do.

And if something is illegal they make sure itís illegal and codify it somehow. When a businessman wants to do something they consult their lawyer and say ď is this illegal to doĒ and if itís not people will do that thing I donít care how dumb or not real this example is but most of the time people do things if their illegal or not. If itís not illegal they do it. I donít know if you realize but at the top of GLIs website it states that the standards donít apply unless the jurisdiction where the gaming is happening adopts the standards and if those standards are not legally codified you can almost surely compare the lists and see what states you can actually do the things they say not to do.

Doesnít get any more clear than paragraph 1.

PA Blackjack

Regulations for Blackjack begin on Pg. 608

§ 633a.5. Shuffle and cut of the cards.
Immediately prior to commencement of play, unless the cards were preshuffled in accordance with § 603a.16(u) or (v) (relating to cards; receipt, storage, inspection and removal from use), after each shoe of cards is dealt or when directed by a floorperson or above, the dealer shall shuffle the cards, either manually or by use of an automated card shuffling device, so that the cards are randomly intermixed.

(e) After the cards have been cut and before the cards have been placed in the dealing shoe, a floorperson or above may require the cards to be recut if the floorperson determines that the cut was performed improperly or in any way that might affect the integrity or fairness of the game.

(g) If there is no gaming activity at a Blackjack table which is open for gaming, the cards shall be removed from the dealing shoe and the discard rack and spread out on the table face down unless a player requests that the cards be spread face up on the table. After the first player arriving at the table is afforded an opportunity to visually inspect the cards shall be:

Mixed thoroughly by a washing of the cards, stacked, then shuffled and cut in accordance with this section, if there is no automated shuffling device in use.

(2) Stacked and placed into the automated shuffling device to be shuffled, if an automated shuffling device is in use. The batch of cards already in the shuffler shall then be removed. Unless a player requests otherwise, the batch of cards removed from the shuffler does not need to be spread for inspection and reshuffled prior to being dealt, if the automated card shuffling device stores a single batch of shuffled cards inside the shuffler in a secure manner.

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