My opinion on a casinos fairness after 7 years of dealing
Quote: heatmaphave you ever seen some of the videos of Persi Diaconis shuffling and when he writes the word RANDOM on the side of the deck and as hes shuffling it gets blurrier and then the word repeats but is smaller as the shuffle gets more random? im pretty sure its on the edge of the decks because if someone were to catch on to hidden ink on the faces of the cards it would be much easier to discern rather than the side which is like a barcode most likely if it has hidden ink...
Haven't seen the video you're talking about.
There's not much to catch on to in reference to the ink. It's relatively well known that's how the scanner reads the cards. The particulars of what exactly the scanner reads are part of what I don't know. If I were doing it, I'd have a series of small dots similar to braille that probably use up less than 1/8 sq in.
the particular machine they use to deal this is a single-deck. I'm not sure if the same machine is multi-deck capable. I do know this same machine hosts nearly all the carnival (poker-based) game configurations.Quote:
is this tied to ASMs? or is this the Inteli-shoes or whatever they are called after the hand is dealt? Or can this be done before as well?
They also have a One2Six that is multi-deck capable, and various CSMs that can offload a stack for a shoe (I think up to 8 decks), and take partial-shoe discards mixed back in. They also have a dumb-shuffler that elevates thru the table for live poker tables. But we're at the limits of my knowledge now. I'm not sure which shufflers can be programmed to which games.
outside my knowledge limit on their protections and processes.Quote:
pseudo random number generators?
What mcallister3200 said seemed so rude because it was so true.Quote: beachbumbabsY'all are closing in on the rude line from all directions. It's a discussion worth having, so let's not spoil it with dung - flinging, please. Thanks.
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I think it's ridiculous for people to think casinos don't cheat and everything's on the level all the time. I think it's also ridiculous for people to think that all the casinos are cheating all the time and everything is rigged.
I think there is significantly more cheating and deceptive practices going on than Zcore thinks and it's way less than guys like WMW and ZK thinks.
Here's something to pay attention to in the future. It's generally people with super high egos who overestimate their skill that think everything is rigged.
Then of course, we have the run of the mill conspiracy theorists.
Quote: AxelWolfWhat mcallister3200 said seemed so rude because it was so true.
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I think it's ridiculous for people to think casinos don't cheat and everything's on the level all the time. I think it's also ridiculous for people to think that all the casinos are cheating all the time and everything is rigged.
I think there is significantly more cheating and deceptive practices going on than Zcore thinks and it's way less than guys like WMW and ZK thinks.
Here's something to pay attention to in the future. It's generally people with super high egos who overestimate their skill that think everything is rigged.
Then of course, we have the run of the mill conspiracy theorists.
Can you site one case of a U.S. casino being caught using rigged shuffle? One casino employee or former that blew the whistle? One Shuffle Master employee or former that confirmed there re setting to rig the deal? Just one in the last 25 years of automatic shuffles?
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Can you site one case of a U.S. casino being caught using rigged shuffle? One casino employee or former that blew the whistle? One Shuffle Master employee or former that confirmed there re setting to rig the deal? Just one in the last 25 years of automatic shuffles?
ZCore13
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/34621-my-opinion-on-a-casinos-fairness-after-7-years-of-dealing/
Quote: heatmaphttps://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/34621-my-opinion-on-a-casinos-fairness-after-7-years-of-dealing/
That story is about as far from confirmed as you can get.
Quote: heatmaphttps://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/34621-my-opinion-on-a-casinos-fairness-after-7-years-of-dealing/
Lol. Really?
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Lol.
Gotem :-)
Sure I will, as soon as you can cite where I claimed the shuffle is rigged.Quote: Zcore13Can you site one case of a U.S. casino being caught using rigged shuffle? One casino employee or former that blew the whistle? One Shuffle Master employee or former that confirmed there re setting to rig the deal? Just one in the last 25 years of automatic shuffles?
ZCore13
I'm talking in general that casinos cheat and use deceptive predatory practices. There has been enough evidence to establish that's a fact. I know it's happened to me.
Quote: AxelWolfSure I will, as soon as you can cite where I claimed the shuffle is rigged.
I'm talking in general that casinos cheat and use deceptive predatory practices. There has been enough evidence to establish that's a fact. I know it's happened to me.
I completely agree that casinos have, and do, cheat. That they are capable of deceptive language, prize replacement or non-award, skewing results, re-setting progressives without awards, lots of other things.
What I am disputing is the particular method claimed of programming shufflers for systematic cheating. It simply doesn't happen, because it simply doesn't pay the casino or the manufacturer to do it.
Has it EVER happened? Probably, before they came up with the various safeguards in the first years of mechanical shufflers.
Is it perfect now? Maybe not, but there are a lot of protection and detection procedures in place to ensure a fair amount of integrity in using them. The AP guys are usually one step ahead of the security on stuff like this, so maybe there's some stuff going on, but I don't think it's coming from the casino side, and I sure don't think the major manufacturers are putting in backdoors or cheats.
Quote: beachbumbabs
What I am disputing is the particular method claimed of programming shufflers for systematic cheating. It simply doesn't happen, because it simply doesn't pay the casino or the manufacturer to do it.
This.
There are serious checks and balances in every step in every single regulated jurisdiction - which covers the entire USA. Vendor, GLI (or BMM), gaming commission/regulator, and the end casino. It's truly preposterous to suggest the shuffler software is programmed to cheat in a regulated jurisdiction. It simply isn't possible.
Quote: AxelWolfSure I will, as soon as you can cite where I claimed the shuffle is rigged.
I'm talking in general that casinos cheat and use deceptive predatory practices. There has been enough evidence to establish that's a fact. I know it's happened to me.
Please show me one instance of an employee or former exposing casino policies or procedures that cheat customers. Just one recorded meeting where a GM or Director says that the employees should cheat or do things that cause players to lose at a higher rate than normal. Just one time in the last 25 years.
There are bad individuals in every profession. Bad Dr's, bad lawyers, bad mechanics, bad athletes etc. If a UFC fighter tests positive for HGH, that's cheating. It doesn't make the UFC a cheating organization.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13There are bad individuals in every profession. Bad Dr's, bad lawyers, bad mechanics, bad athletes etc. If a UFC fighter tests positive for HGH, that's cheating. It doesn't make the UFC a cheating organization.
Something that could make UFC a cheating organization is if they ever gave therapeutic use exemptions for anabolics to some fighters who didn't need it to treat true medical conditions.
If a bad individual makes a bad decision that is upheld by their organization, the organization would be cheating. You really think no one can find any examples meeting that standard in the casino industry?
I learned that when the same individuals were winning cars....or the people walking up to claim their "win" were always waiving a Purple or Black card.
The same applied to their $10,000 cash giveaway when playing slots. "Any machine, any time". Give me a break. You know you are funneling those big cash prizes to your top tier players. Grandma .30 cents isn't winning your $20,000 cash prize.
Quote: TDVegasI do not believe casinos cheat...I do believe they have been and may continue to be deceptive. "Random selection" on give aways, prizes or other contests are NOT random. Random implies that everyone has an equal chance to win. That's simply not the case. I believe Station Casino made an "adjustment" to some of their giveaways, contests, etc. and removed the word "random"...because they know it's not random. Maybe a lawyer cue'd them in to the wording and they took the advice.
I learned that when the same individuals were winning cars....or the people walking up to claim their "win" were always waiving a Purple or Black card.
The same applied to their $10,000 cash giveaway when playing slots. "Any machine, any time". Give me a break. You know you are funneling those big cash prizes to your top tier players. Grandma .30 cents isn't winning your $20,000 cash prize.
Random does not mean equal. 100% drawings are weighted based on play. Every casino does that and all I have seen or been apart of disclose how the entries are earned. Most of the time by theoretical loss. The random is who gets picked once the amount of entries are determined. And much of the time that's the big players because they have far and away more entries.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Random does not mean equal. 100% drawings are weighted based on play. Every casino does that and all I have seen or been apart of disclose how the entries are earned. Most of the time by theoretical loss. The random is who gets picked once the amount of entries are determined. And much of the time that's the big players because they have far and away more entries.
ZCore13
Nonsense. That’s like saying roulette is a random game (it is)....but then adding “whose number gets picked is based on how many chips are on the number.
Random: made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
Random: : being or relating to a set or to an element of a set each of whose elements has equal probability of occurrence.
Their slot give away has nothing to do with drawings either. It simply states anyone playing on any machine at any time can win. Those $20k payoffs are not going to “anyone”.
Not all contests are based on “entries”...they still aren’t equally weighted. It’s deceptive. They know it.
Quote: TDVegasNonsense. That’s like saying roulette is a random game (it is)....but then adding “whose number gets picked is based on how many chips are on the number.
Random: made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
Random: : being or relating to a set or to an element of a set each of whose elements has equal probability of occurrence
Random doesn’t imply equal weighting. But it’s deceptive of the casinos if they don’t disclose how the weighting works (or if there is a weighting).
Quote: unJonRandom doesn’t imply equal weighting. But it’s deceptive of the casinos if they don’t disclose how the weighting works (or if there is a weighting).
According to Webster’s...it does.
A random sample or method is one in which all the people or things involved have an equal chance of being chosen.
Again, I have hundreds of previous give away contests, prizes and offerings from Station Casinos and the super majority make ZERO mention of drawing entries, being weighted or anything like that.
“Any machine, any time”.
That’s it.
I guarantee you it’s not equal.
Yes, they do NOT disclose how the weighting works on the majority of their give aways yet they will word it as if everyone has an equal chance...it’s deceptive as hell. And it’s done with purpose.
Quote: TDVegasAccording to Webster’s...it does.
A random sample or method is one in which all the people or things involved have an equal chance of being chosen.
Again, I have hundreds of previous give away contests, prizes and offerings from Station Casinos and the super majority make ZERO mention of drawings, being weighted or anything like that.
“Any machine, any time”.
That’s it.
I guarantee you it’s not equal.
Yes, they do NOT disclose how the weighting works on the majority of their give aways yet they will word it as if everyone has an equal chance...
Have you ever asked for the drawing rules. I would think that Nevada would be the same as other States that I know, require rules to be available upon request. Just because nobody has ever shoved rules under your nose, doesn't mean there are none. Sounds like you think your a victim of something that is only in your mind.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Have you ever asked for the drawing rules. I would think that Nevada would be the same as other States that I know, require rules to be available upon request. Just because nobody has ever shoved rules under your nose, doesn't mean there are none. Sounds like you think your a victim of something that is only in your mind.
ZCore13
They aren’t giving $20,000 to some ploppie playing .20 cents per spin on any “anytime, any machine” giveaway each week. You and I know that. Let’s not be ridiculous.
The likelihood is that there is no such thing as a TRUE random casino contest giveaway that gives each person equal weighting to win.
The technique Station Casino uses is “no entries, random”....but your player card must be in the machine. We both know why that is.
If you think those $20k wins are going to “no entries, random”....I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
My guess is this contest is “run by omission”....meaning it’s weighted but we’ve just chosen not to say how. We told you how it’s not weighted...entries. Probably not illegal. Just deceptive and underhanded as hell.
https://www.stationcasinosblog.com/2018/10/station-casinos-introduces-monopoly-big-time-bonus-a-new-way-to-win-up-to-20000/
Quote: TDVegasThey aren’t giving $20,000 to some ploppie playing .20 cents per spin on any “anytime, any machine” giveaway each week. You and I know that. Let’s not be ridiculous.
The likelihood is that there is no such thing as a TRUE random casino contest giveaway that gives each person equal weighting to win.
The technique Station Casino uses is “no entries, random”....but your player card must be in the machine. We both know why that is.
If you think those $20k wins are going to “no entries, random”....I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
My guess is this contest is “run by omission”....meaning it’s weighted but we’ve just chosen not to say how. We told you how it’s not weighted...entries. Probably not illegal. Just deceptive and underhanded as hell.
https://www.stationcasinosblog.com/2018/10/station-casinos-introduces-monopoly-big-time-bonus-a-new-way-to-win-up-to-20000/
I bet you anyone can win equally then. They want to have your mailing and play patterns. That's why they require a card in the machine. I run random drawings all the time with every active player in the casino receiving 1 ticket and table games players getting additional tickets for theo losses. Some table games players have thousands of tickets, but I've had 1 ticket slot players be selected and win the top amount given away.
Do you think it's unfair that someone who plays for 6 hours has a better chance to win than someone that plays 10 minutes? They do, whether you like it or not. You have zero proof or even a shred of evidence that shows the drawing is rigged. Just like the dice controllers, system sellers, beast mode proclaimed, your accusations are baseless.
ZCore13
Quote: TDVegasAccording to Webster’s...it does.
A random sample or method is one in which all the people or things involved have an equal chance of being chosen.
Again, I have hundreds of previous give away contests, prizes and offerings from Station Casinos and the super majority make ZERO mention of drawing entries, being weighted or anything like that.
“Any machine, any time”.
That’s it.
I guarantee you it’s not equal.
Yes, they do NOT disclose how the weighting works on the majority of their give aways yet they will word it as if everyone has an equal chance...it’s deceptive as hell. And it’s done with purpose.
#fakenews
You quoted the fourth definition from Webster. Random does not imply equal weighting. A reel slot machine is random but the weighting isn’t equal. Quantum mechanics is based on randomness but there’s not equal weighting. Random does not imply equal weighting.
ETA: again I am not taking issue with the rest of your post. I agree the casino advertising is deceptive.
Quote: unJon#fakenews
You quoted the fourth definition from Webster. Random does not imply equal weighting. A reel slot machine is random but the weighting isn’t equal. Quantum mechanics is based on randomness but there’s not equal weighting. Random does not imply equal weighting.
ETA: again I am not taking issue with the rest of your post. I agree the casino advertising is deceptive.
Ok...we disagree. I think random means or implies equal chance or probability for something to happen....especially as it relates to the casino.
As far as slots go...we all know the more you wager, equal chance goes out the door as it relates to progressives. It might go out the door for other payoffs as well.
That’s different than what I’m saying.
See roulette. Each number has equal probability. It’s a true random game.
Quote: unJonRandom doesn’t imply equal weighting. But it’s deceptive of the casinos if they don’t disclose how the weighting works (or if there is a weighting).
I can't remember the exact details, but I qualified for 3 entries to some online giveaway, for no charge. I actually read the rules, and the terms had it such that the best customers could easily qualify for millions of entries. i remember trying to figure out what my entries were actually worth (EV), and it was some very small fraction of a penny.
I think the casino problem is that it is deceptive. Entrants should have a general idea what their chances of winning are, but probably have no way to figure it out.
Quote: TDVegasNonsense. That’s like saying roulette is a random game (it is)....but then adding “whose number gets picked is based on how many chips are on the number.
Random: made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
Random: : being or relating to a set or to an element of a set each of whose elements has equal probability of occurrence.
Their slot give away has nothing to do with drawings either. It simply states anyone playing on any machine at any time can win. Those $20k payoffs are not going to “anyone”.
Not all contests are based on “entries”...they still aren’t equally weighted. It’s deceptive. They know it.
If I buy 10 tickets in a raffle , and you buy 1 ticket, I have a much better chance of winning the prize. But the actual drawing of the winning ticket is random, the winning ticket is selected from amongst all entries, each individual entry with the same chance.
Random doesn’t have to mean Each Person has the same chance.
The casino contests are the same. Just that the bigger players have “purchased” more tickets. Playing big in the casino is akin to having purchased more raffle tickets.
Quote: SOOPOOI can't remember the exact details, but I qualified for 3 entries to some online giveaway, for no charge. I actually read the rules, and the terms had it such that the best customers could easily qualify for millions of entries. i remember trying to figure out what my entries were actually worth (EV), and it was some very small fraction of a penny.
I think the casino problem is that it is deceptive. Entrants should have a general idea what their chances of winning are, but probably have no way to figure it out.
Correct. There used to be around 100 people who would come for the drawings. They are lucky to see 15-20 waiting there now. Basically word spread that your chances were probably zero unless you were a top tier players. The reality is you have no idea whatsoever how many "entries" or tickets they are awarding to those they would like to see win their big prizes.
Blogs and articles like this didn't help.
https://www.nolandalla.com/stations-casinos-monthly-drawing-rigged/
Quote: michael99000If I buy 10 tickets in a raffle , and you buy 1 ticket, I have a much better chance of winning the prize. But the actual drawing of the winning ticket is random, the winning ticket is selected from amongst all entries, each individual entry with the same chance.
Random doesn’t have to mean Each Person has the same chance.
The casino contests are the same. Just that the bigger players have “purchased” more tickets. Playing big in the casino is akin to having purchased more raffle tickets.
Typically in cases like this...the entries are capped so they aren't raffeling off a $25,000 car and selling $300,000 in entries....or $3 million.
In the casino....the reality is the players have no clue whatsoever how many entries are being awarded and to what "skew" do they basically ensure their top players win. That's fine....but these contests are deceptive, IMO....as their intent is to get as many people in the "store" without anyone knowing what kind of chance they have or my contention...that their chance is about nil.
My contention is Station Casinos is awarding ZERO cars to their 60% red card holders, their 18% gold card holders or their 12% platinum card holders. Every car, every month is going to either their 6% President card holders and 4% Chairman card holders. Some chairman are winning multiple cars. I’m willing to accept a counter argument. Show me I’m wrong, Stations. They always post a picture of the winner. Post the picture with them holding their player card and the car keys. Then I shut up.
They are so heavily skewed...you are effectively wasting your time unless you are in the 10%....4%.
It's business...I get it. Reward the players you know you'll get it back and then some. I still think it's a deceptive practice of how these contests, giveaways, prizes are advertised.
Every time we have this discussion you bring up something similar to this. I'm not talking aboutQuote: Zcore13Random does not mean equal. 100% drawings are weighted based on play. Every casino does that and all I have seen or been apart of disclose how the entries are earned. Most of the time by theoretical loss. The random is who gets picked once the amount of entries are determined. And much of the time that's the big players because they have far and away more entries.
ZCore13
Drawings that have disproportionate tickets because someone plays heavier than another.
There have been casinos known to purposely avoid Advantage Players drawing tickets, and purposely toss tickets back in the drum because someone was drawn who they didn't want to win. There's been cases of ticket palming and other various sketchy things. I've been a victim of these types of things more than once.
https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/question/venetian-rigging-a-drawing/
Quote: AxelWolfEvery time we have this discussion you bring up something similar to this. I'm not talking about
Drawings that have disproportionate tickets because someone plays heavier than another.
There have been casinos known to purposely avoid Advantage Players drawing tickets, and purposely toss tickets back in the drum because someone was drawn who they didn't want to win. There's been cases of ticket palming and other various sketchy things. I've been a victim of these types of things more than once.
https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/question/venetian-rigging-a-drawing/
I am 99.9% sure I was screwed on a big Ventetian drawing about 10 years ago. They were giving away $300,000 by drawing 50 names for tickets earned over a weekend. I would guess I earned as many or more tickets than anyone else in the drawing and didn't get selected at all with 50 tickets drawn. These were virtual tickets. I think it was the next year that Venetian got busted for fixing their drawings.
Quote: DRichI am 99.9% sure I was screwed on a big Ventetian drawing about 10 years ago. They were giving away $300,000 by drawing 50 names for tickets earned over a weekend. I would guess I earned as many or more tickets than anyone else in the drawing and didn't get selected at all with 50 tickets drawn. These were virtual tickets. I think it was the next year that Venetian got busted for fixing their drawings.
I don't think the casinos cheat on any casino game....but I do think their larger giveaways are so heavily weighted to certain players that it all but ensures they will win everytime. I had heard about the Venetian scandal and I would not be surprised to know it's done elsewhere.
My suggestion was for Station Casinos...on any of their giveaways (cars, cash awards, trips, etc) to be transparent on a small level. You aren't giving out names, or pictures...simply only list the prize and card tier level. Simple.
January 5....Escalade. Chairman
January 9....$10,000. Chairman
January 11...Tahiti trip. Chairman
January 12...$5,000. President
January 14...Mustang. Chairman
January 17...$10,000. Chairman
January 22...Jet ski. President
January 27..."any time, any slot" $15,000. Chairman
This way....people will get an idea of their chances. If this continues into the next month and the next and the next...then ploppie knows what his chances are. About zero.
It's an easy solution to questions on how these contests are run. They'll never do it because they know the winner list is going to look exactly as I posted it. Month after month.
Romes is very learned at this game of Blackjack but to get to his 'changes in the count' as game progresses would require the cards to be put BACK into the shuffler to change the order again. Obviously this doesn't occur with an ASM. As to a CSM, there are pictures online that show the inner workings and "shelves" of cards that are dealt. The machine cannot MOVE these shelves in non random order to sub out the three or five cards in each batch IF somehow it "learned" that the count or order "favored" the players. They are metal and stiff plastic and on a 'wheel" apparatus. The spokes of that wheel don't move about themselves.
Does cheating occur? I'm sure it does, having seen it from players AND collusion with dealers and their friends. But I don't see this as a system wide or casino wide enterprise. They already have the laws of large numbers in their favor. If you were running a house or garage blackjack game, which side would you choose? To bank or to play............LOL
