mcallister3200
mcallister3200
Joined: Dec 29, 2013
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April 28th, 2020 at 8:50:32 PM permalink
Quote: BedWetterBetter

Sands PA is one of the strictest casinos I've ever been to when it comes to prohibitive actions against "verbal threats" or accusatory statements. Had a guy get ejected from a table because he called another a 'Jackass' for doubling A-9 against dealer 6, when the table kindly asked him not to. The one who doubled and ended up pushing while the rest lost was telling them he felt "unsafe" after being threatened.
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Was the true count +6 or higher?
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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April 28th, 2020 at 9:15:28 PM permalink
Quote: BedWetterBetter

Sands PA is one of the strictest casinos I've ever been to when it comes to prohibitive actions against "verbal threats" or accusatory statements. Had a guy get ejected from a table because he called another a 'Jackass' for doubling A-9 against dealer 6, when the table kindly asked him not to. The one who doubled and ended up pushing while the rest lost was telling them he felt "unsafe" after being threatened.



Prisoners dilemma. Defection was equal to ďtalkingĒ aka hitting in this case when he shouldnít have. This is what I speak about in my other comment. This is all my opinion. If you describe the entire layout of the next card dealt to the first person in the next round I may be able to elaborate more of what I mean... can you recall the entire sequence of the cards possibly?
TDVegas
TDVegas 
Joined: Oct 30, 2018
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April 28th, 2020 at 10:55:39 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

But once again Iím on your side I truly believe these things are ďriggedĒ as they say... the problem is that there is nothing legally that says they canít rig the decks, but the procedures to keep people from rigging them are rigorous...


Of course this is covered in any state gaming law.

This is akin to people claiming there is nothing that says biased dice canít be used....therefore it can.

Gaming laws address random, random outcomes, as it relates to any game where dice or cards are to adhere to this.

These are felonies with prison time.
racquet
racquet
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
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April 29th, 2020 at 6:29:49 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

There is no such thing as a de-clumping feature.



That's the only thing that matters in this whole wide-ranging discussion. The OP says that the company markets such a feature, you say that there isn't one.

I have never seen even a single piece of Shufflemaster marketing material. I've never seen the inside of one of the machines, or any manual that describes any settings, switches, options or controls that prove that there is, or is not, even a single option.

Whatever other options exist, a "New deck order" or an option that just makes sure that there are the proper NUMBER of cards in the deck without regard to denomination, are irrelevant.

Comments about what we've seen, number of players or hands, whether someone hits or stands? Also irrelevant.

Where are the mathaholics on this forum? Rather than a machine doing it, assume that you had the ability to arrange a deck of 52 cards in a pre-detemined sequence such that a) the deck is rigged so that the true count over the course of play is to the GREATEST advantage to the player b) to the WORST benefit of the player c) to the MOST NEUTRAL benefit to neither player or house.

Assuming that there are such arrangements, and there must be if the theory of card counting is a good one, then the only issue is whether or not a machine used to shuffle cards can be programmed to insure one of them.

So who knows enough about the machine to say? So far we have two opinions about it. One poster says "yes there is" and one other poster says "no there is not."
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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Thanks for this post from:
EdCollins
April 29th, 2020 at 6:58:06 AM permalink
Quote: racquet


So who knows enough about the machine to say? So far we have two opinions about it. One poster says "yes there is" and one other poster says "no there is not."



Except there's one major difference between the original poster and myself. He posted anonymously. with no facts, hearsay and has never returned.

I am a former Director of Table Games, I've been here 11 years and many people know exactly who I am and some have met me in person.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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April 29th, 2020 at 11:31:17 AM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Of course this is covered in any state gaming law.

This is akin to people claiming there is nothing that says biased dice canít be used....therefore it can.



I do not doubt your statement. But the only random laws pertaining to outcomes at least that I have seen only pertain to slot machines. I live in Pennsylvania and their laws are apparently very detailed as opposed to normal gaming laws that I have tried to read in other states. I will say again I have gone to the extremes to get the information I want and did not go into the gaming control board unprepared. Our gaming laws are very clear, and the gaming control board lady was very ďflusteredĒ because I knew the exact laws and what they say and she knew I knew what I was talking about. She was so flustered I knew she wasnít lying to me because she wanted me the eff out of there so I could stop bothering these people about rigged gaming equipment. I believed her truly when she said that the shufflers are not held to any percentage performance. She was also the one who ordered the shuffling machines. She also claimed she could open any of the machines at any time and gather the stats out of it and check whatever the outputs and stats if she wanted to but she wasnít going to because what I claimed was not happening.

Just show me a law pertaining to the legality and laws that claim anything about shuffler and what itís supposed to do and what itís not supposed to do.

And if something is illegal they make sure itís illegal and codify it somehow. When a businessman wants to do something they consult their lawyer and say ď is this illegal to doĒ and if itís not people will do that thing I donít care how dumb or not real this example is but most of the time people do things if their illegal or not. If itís not illegal they do it. I donít know if you realize but at the top of GLIs website it states that the standards donít apply unless the jurisdiction where the gaming is happening adopts the standards and if those standards are not legally codified you can almost surely compare the lists and see what states you can actually do the things they say not to do.
racquet
racquet
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
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April 29th, 2020 at 7:29:36 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Except there's one major difference between the original poster and myself. He posted anonymously. with no facts, hearsay and has never returned.
I am a former Director of Table Games, I've been here 11 years and many people know exactly who I am and some have met me in person.
ZCore13



We've never met, but I've read a lot of your posts and think that you provide a lot of insight into the business and tell it like it is, looking from the inside. I'd accept your version of "the way it is" before a one-time poster who hits and runs.

So, tell us...

Is "declumping technology" built into the machines, is it just a marketing gimmick on the part of the manufacturer that makes them, or is the whole idea just myth and legend like so many of the lunatic pronouncements of players?

Are there versions or levels of machine, some with features, others with fewer?

I have no idea about these machines. Is there only one company that makes them? Is there a ShuffleMaster 3.1, a Shufflemaster 95, and a Shufflemaster 365?

Are there dip-switches or toggles inside the machine for various setups? Is "declumping" one of the toggles?

Can the same machine handle six-deck and eight-deck games? Can the same machine deal with a Spanish 21 deck?

I've never been one to think that there are conspiracies out there on the part of the casinos to take our money. They run a bunch of games that are statistically guaranteed to win. They don't need to cheat. If they get to greedy, they install CSMs and offer 6:5 blackjack. Perfectly "honest" enhancements to the game.

So my impression is that "declumping technology" doesn't exist. But then again...
michael99000
michael99000
Joined: Jul 10, 2010
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April 29th, 2020 at 7:51:06 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Except there's one major difference between the original poster and myself. He posted anonymously. with no facts, hearsay and has never returned.

I am a former Director of Table Games, I've been here 11 years and many people know exactly who I am and some have met me in person.


ZCore13



Iím not saying you arenít honest.

But how much weight should your posts about these kinda things carry? Letís pretend for a second that there was some type of cheating or rigging in these shufflers , and that you knew about it.

Are you really gonna disclose that knowledge on a message board ?

So the point Iím making is , no matter whatís really happening, youíre going to say exactly what youíve been saying.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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  • Posts: 3548
April 29th, 2020 at 8:23:52 PM permalink
Quote: racquet

We've never met, but I've read a lot of your posts and think that you provide a lot of insight into the business and tell it like it is, looking from the inside. I'd accept your version of "the way it is" before a one-time poster who hits and runs.

So, tell us...

Is "declumping technology" built into the machines, is it just a marketing gimmick on the part of the manufacturer that makes them, or is the whole idea just myth and legend like so many of the lunatic pronouncements of players?

Are there versions or levels of machine, some with features, others with fewer?

I have no idea about these machines. Is there only one company that makes them? Is there a ShuffleMaster 3.1, a Shufflemaster 95, and a Shufflemaster 365?

Are there dip-switches or toggles inside the machine for various setups? Is "declumping" one of the toggles?

Can the same machine handle six-deck and eight-deck games? Can the same machine deal with a Spanish 21 deck?

I've never been one to think that there are conspiracies out there on the part of the casinos to take our money. They run a bunch of games that are statistically guaranteed to win. They don't need to cheat. If they get to greedy, they install CSMs and offer 6:5 blackjack. Perfectly "honest" enhancements to the game.

So my impression is that "declumping technology" doesn't exist. But then again...



The term de-clumping is meant to imply that shuffle tracking can't be done. That is clumps of cards that just gone done being played, show up in the same order in the next shoe. The de-clumping it does is randomly shuffle the cards enough times that no group of cards will remain the exact same as they were. There is no level of settings or machine model that can put the cards in any winning/losing combination or order.

Shuffle Master dominates the market. 99.9% of table games machines are Shuffle Master. Maybe 95% of poker shufflers are Shuffle Master. Shufflemaster comes out with newer and faster technology every so often. 5-10 years maybe? For multiple deck shufflers, there's the oldest MD!, newer MD-2 and most recent MD-3. For single deck games there's the iDeal. It gets software and hardware updates as well. The most recent I recall is putting a screen facing the players to show the random number generating when dealing Pai Gow Poker.

It's very easy for casinos to better there odds without cheating. At any time I could have gone to ASM's for more hands per hour, changed some games to 6-5, adjusted side bet and progressive pay tables to hold a higher percentage, increased the minimum bet or side bet amount, adjusted rules to increase house edge, etc. Most casinos dont want to kill their players though. Las Vegas is the exception, not the rule, to take money as fast as you can.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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  • Posts: 3548
April 29th, 2020 at 8:24:05 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

Iím not saying you arenít honest.

But how much weight should your posts about these kinda things carry? Letís pretend for a second that there was some type of cheating or rigging in these shufflers , and that you knew about it.

Are you really gonna disclose that knowledge on a message board ?

So the point Iím making is , no matter whatís really happening, youíre going to say exactly what youíve been saying.



Why dont you cheat at your job? Why should I trust you?

I would report any illegal activity or cheating immediately at my work. I would also report it if I knew another casino was doing it. I'm an employee of a business that happens to offer games of chance. That doesn't mean I've become some sort of corrupt mobster because I receive a paycheck every 2 weeks.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.

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