Paying people to make correct moves

Playing at a low limit table tonight. To my right two guys from New York just looking to play some blackjack. To my left, two beautiful girls who never have played blackjack. They were making every mistake in the book. They didn’t want to put up money for certain situations that were beneficial to them. Plus if you have played at sands Bethlehem/ wind creek, you know that when someone does not play according to basic strategy it is not beneficial to the table.

For example they did not want to split 9s against a 2. The dudes next to me were trying to tell them what the correct play was but they were still doing whatever they wanted to do and losing mostly. So when they hesitated I offered to put up the money to let them know how important it was as well as to show them what the correct plays do when applied. Literally had to do this every time they didn’t want to play correctly. But they ended up listening to me and the table ended up winning.

Dealer already warned the one table I played at that I can't coach other players.

Quote: heatmap

Plus if you have played at sands Bethlehem/ wind creek, you know that when someone does not play according to basic strategy it is not beneficial to the table.

I don't understand. Are you saying Sands Bethlehem / Wind Creek secretly arranges the deck to benefit the players, but only if they play according to basic strategy? That must take a lot of effort.

Quote: heatmap

Plus if you have played at sands Bethlehem/ wind creek, you know that when someone does not play according to basic strategy it is not beneficial to the table.

You're going to have to explain that wrong sounding comment.
It was their money to throw away. Maybe offer friendly advice once, but if declined, then it would be impertinent to push it.
If you don't like 'the flow' getting disrupted*, leave the table.

*A silly and groundless concept

Quote: heatmap

, you know that when someone does not play according to basic strategy it is not beneficial to the table.

It is dealer against the players. The table, the chairs, the drink glasses ain't got nothin' to do with it. The shoe does not contain cards that are destined for you, the pretty girls may be alluring, their style of play may me as entertaining as their fingernail polish, they may smile at you or ignore you and your suggestions, but they are not the embodiment of Lady Variance.

Quote: FleaStiff

It is dealer against the players.

By that I mean the INDIVIDUAL players. Why don't you sit at your own table, then ALL the cards are going to be dealt according to 'destiny' and you won't have to buy other players submission to your astrology-based views on the cards?

Yes I absolutely believe everything I have said. There is no flow. The shouldA couldA wouldA is why I say that. Y’all know how I feel. This should not be a surprise. If you are playing at sands Bethlehem/wind creek, if you stray from basic strategy you get punished. One move makes or breaks the table, and I’m not the only one in history to ever believe this. If you misstep, the one card usually causes the dealer to receive a different card if they are hitting and it is normally beneficial to them. This example is very clear at the stadium blackjack. I do not believe my statements are incorrect as I am not advocating to stray away from basic strategy but to stick to it because I know what happens when you try to alter destiny as some have said to my advantage. However they do it, they are doing it. I have tried to explain what I have and still see to this day about what I’m seeing but you would have to see my play in action to know what I am talking about. People love when I tell them how to play because they win because I know the cards and how they come out. They don’t love when I call the dealers cards though

I have said this before that I will meet anyone and show you what I mean. The thing is that this is local to Pennsylvania and from what I see on the slot lady’s blackjack streams local to shuffle master. Just go watch her streams and in your mind play wrong. Play the cards through as if you are the crappiest player ever and then look at which cards come out and which cards would have benefited you or the dealer. If you defect or do not do the specified strategy the dealer benefits because you didn’t actually take a chance.

I can show anyone who wants I have no problem and I will continue to believe what I’m seeing until someone can also prove me otherwise.

And I should also mention that I was not the one telling these girls what to do and that they needed to do it, because I’m a degenerate gambler. Let destiny take its place. I didn’t not also mention that the one dude next to me comparing to me could have taken both of the girls home and they would have married him. He was the one letting them know at first that they should do certain things and that’s not my style. I was simply trying to show them value. I said I was putting up the money because I was getting value if they weren’t.

Quote: heatmap

If you are playing at sands Bethlehem/wind creek, if you stray from basic strategy you get punished. One move makes or breaks the table, and I’m not the only one in history to ever believe this. If you misstep, the one card usually causes the dealer to receive a different card if they are hitting and it is normally beneficial to them. This example is very clear at the stadium blackjack.

What is your evidence?

Quote: Wizard

What is your evidence?

I am working right now but for you I will throw together a video of one of the many videos Sarah has been making. I have sequences that I believe are graph games. If you play through a sequence, with multiple people, the dealer receives the same number for their hand in 5 out the 7 hands when replayed. This was proven within the first sequence I pulled randomly.

I will attempt to prove this to you with each sequence, by reversing the split deck and reconstructing the initial shuffle. I will then play through as if there is no cut. The cut makes randomness happen.

When I get the init shuffle hopefully I can show you that at every turn, no matter if you leave and another player is added or if you add give people, the sequence can handle and play without being able to be exploited in any way. Unless you had a computer I’ll concede to that.

Thank you for responding.

Quote: heatmap

... .. ... and in your mind

PRECISELY !! In your mind you see and recall all those UN-basic strategy decisions and they cost you money all the time. You never see or recall the times someone's UN-basic strategy play resulted in your making money.

Focus on how nice a day it is and how much you are enjoying a stroll do not obsess about the cracks in the sidewalk.

Play blackjack, do the best you can at it and stop looking at any cards but yours and the dealers.

Quote: heatmap

Yes I absolutely believe everything I have said.

I believe that you believe it I also believe that most of what you believe is wrong.

Quote:

... if you stray from basic strategy you get punished.

If they stray from basic strategy, they get punished. Makes no difference to what happens to you and your bankroll, on average. Some rounds their stategy ruins your outcome and sometimes they improve your outcome... In generally even measure.

Quote:

... If you misstep, the one card usually causes the dealer to receive a different card if they are hitting and it is normally beneficial to them.

You have an tough audience for that assertion.

Quote:

However they do it, they are doing it. I have tried to explain what I have and still see to this day about what I’m seeing but you would have to see my play in action to know what I am talking about.

Again, you are respectfully challenged to give evidence for that assertion.

If i could show you a product sheet from shuffle master that descriptively differentiates the MD3 from the deck mate, whereas in this paper it states that the deck mates "provide a completely fair shuffle" and the MD3 description states that it creates a "neutral deck as to stop card counters" would you at least believe me a little bit more?

and im at work right now so access to this document will be delayed

So do people get mad when someone doesn't follow basic strategy and it causes the dealer to lose?

Quote: TigerWu

So do people get mad when someone doesn't follow basic strategy and it causes the dealer to lose?

LOL. I never thought of that. The pre-ordained flow of the cards was disturbed and caused the dealer to lose.

Quote: TigerWu

So do people get mad when someone doesn't follow basic strategy and it causes the dealer to lose?

if you continue to do this, you know the law of large numbers will come back to haunt you. Once again I always play basic strategy when playing with other people. As a matter of fact, thats the entire reason the table i was playing at decided to start following basic strategy. They each had one hand or so where they thought that doing something different would cause a win, and it worked. But it ended when they tried it other times it made them lose. when people start losing and they see that the card they had waiting for them would have benefitted them, you better believe its very easy to convince someone to play a specific way. they immediately straiten their backs so to say because they dont want to lose again. So they start listening only after they see that their strategy loses and when i am winning because Im taking the way of the book it is a no brainer that people start to follow.

Quote: heatmap

if you continue to do this, you know the law of large numbers will come back to haunt you. Once again I always play basic strategy when playing with other people. As a matter of fact, thats the entire reason the table i was playing at decided to start following basic strategy. They each had one hand or so where they thought that doing something different would cause a win, and it worked. But it ended when they tried it other times it made them lose. when people start losing and they see that the card they had waiting for them would have benefitted them, you better believe its very easy to convince someone to play a specific way. they immediately straiten their backs so to say because they dont want to lose again. So they start listening only after they see that their strategy loses and when i am winning because Im taking the way of the book it is a no brainer that people start to follow.

How does the preset flow of the cards account for when a relief dealer comes in and burns a card ?

Do they hold him back in the break room until a precise moment when they know based on the number of steps he needs to get to the table , that he’ll arrive just in time to burn the card that’s necessary to keep the basic strategy rigged shoe going ?

Quote: michael99000

Do they hold him back in the break room until a precise moment when they know based on the number of steps he needs to get to the table , that he’ll arrive just in time to burn the card that’s necessary to keep the basic strategy rigged shoe going ?

You got it!

I truly wonder I our dear friend heatmap could enjoy the game more if he didn't have to worry about the shoe so much, just as the pit boss would have more fun if he didn't have to count a relief dealer's paces.

Quote: michael99000

How does the preset flow of the cards account for when a relief dealer comes in and burns a card ?

Do they hold him back in the break room until a precise moment when they know based on the number of steps he needs to get to the table , that he’ll arrive just in time to burn the card that’s necessary to keep the basic strategy rigged shoe going ?

Yes, since the cards are made in China and pre-stacked, the dealers have plenty of time to memorize them so they know when to get to the table.

Quote: TigerWu

pre-stacked

pre shuffled database of a large enough, but still limited set of shuffles that amounts to a single payback percentage over all time.

i believe its something like VLT. the shuffles are considered random, and are picked randomly. the shuffler has different modes, random, non-random, and pre-arranged and most likely more modes than i know about.

Quote: michael99000

How does the preset flow of the cards account for when a relief dealer comes in and burns a card ?

Do they hold him back in the break room until a precise moment when they know based on the number of steps he needs to get to the table , that he’ll arrive just in time to burn the card that’s necessary to keep the basic strategy rigged shoe going ?

this is a bit more complicated and i believe my explanation is lacking as to why this happens because I do not understand math games as much as i like to think i do

but since were here ill say what i think i am seeing.

once again this has to do with something called defection in my opinion. this is a game theory term. and a burn card causes randomness by causing a defection within the events that are supposed to happen. the sequences that are ahead, are no longer the same sequence that was going to be followed. This is a make or break situation and from what im seeing its a binary function which either takes you on or off the track of the next sequence.

Quote: sodawater

I don't understand. Are you saying Sands Bethlehem / Wind Creek secretly arranges the deck to benefit the players, but only if they play according to basic strategy? That must take a lot of effort.

i do think this is true that casinos give you opportunity to make money by you taking chances, and if you dont take the chance, you do not make money. You have to be in it to win it as they say. So yes i do believe this as well.

And with enough money you can buy someone elses "effort"

Quote: heatmap

Yes I absolutely believe everything I have said. There is no flow. The shouldA couldA wouldA is why I say that. Y’all know how I feel. This should not be a surprise. If you are playing at sands Bethlehem/wind creek, if you stray from basic strategy you get punished. One move makes or breaks the table, and I’m not the only one in history to ever believe this. If you misstep, the one card usually causes the dealer to receive a different card if they are hitting and it is normally beneficial to them. This example is very clear at the stadium blackjack. I do not believe my statements are incorrect as I am not advocating to stray away from basic strategy but to stick to it because I know what happens when you try to alter destiny as some have said to my advantage. However they do it, they are doing it. I have tried to explain what I have and still see to this day about what I’m seeing but you would have to see my play in action to know what I am talking about. People love when I tell them how to play because they win because I know the cards and how they come out. They don’t love when I call the dealers cards though

I have said this before that I will meet anyone and show you what I mean. The thing is that this is local to Pennsylvania and from what I see on the slot lady’s blackjack streams local to shuffle master. Just go watch her streams and in your mind play wrong. Play the cards through as if you are the crappiest player ever and then look at which cards come out and which cards would have benefited you or the dealer. If you defect or do not do the specified strategy the dealer benefits because you didn’t actually take a chance.

I can show anyone who wants I have no problem and I will continue to believe what I’m seeing until someone can also prove me otherwise.

And I should also mention that I was not the one telling these girls what to do and that they needed to do it, because I’m a degenerate gambler. Let destiny take its place. I didn’t not also mention that the one dude next to me comparing to me could have taken both of the girls home and they would have married him. He was the one letting them know at first that they should do certain things and that’s not my style. I was simply trying to show them value. I said I was putting up the money because I was getting value if they weren’t.

This is nonsense,myself and others who post here have played at Sands and used strategy that is not even close to basic strategy and we have won.What you need to realize is Sands has the machines programmed to beat basic strategy players,so you have to play totally wrong,then you will win.
Stand on 12s against tens,hit 15 and 16 against small up cards,you will fool the machine and win.Don't tell this trick to too many people or Sands will reprogram the machines.

Quote: Hunterhill

This is nonsense,myself and others who post here have played at Sands and used strategy that is not even close to basic strategy and we have won.What you need to realize is Sands has the machines programmed to beat basic strategy players,so you have to play totally wrong,then you will win.
Stand on 12s against tens,hit 15 and 16 against small up cards,you will fool the machine and win.Don't tell this trick to too many people or Sands will reprogram the machines.

at one point i had a dealer tell a pit manager that i knew what the cards were. i didnt. but from what im seeing i can see why they would take certain rules out of games elsewhere, because with a shuffler that is doing what its doing because stopping the game at certain points allows you to commandeer another position within the chain of events.

It was very cordial of Sands ownership to pass on the rigged deck info to the Wind Creek staff when they bought it.

Rumor has it that Wind Creek was about ready to deal a fair game before a high level meeting.

Quote: michael99000

It was very cordial of Sands ownership to pass on the rigged deck info to the Wind Creek staff when they bought it.

Rumor has it that Wind Creek was about ready to deal a fair game before a high level meeting.

I can only makes these statements because I only have experience at those particular casinos because that’s where I live. I say both their names because I want to remind people that’s what it was and is named as of this point in time. I mainly mean the shufflers not necessarily specific casinos.

Quote: Hunterhill

This is nonsense,myself and others who post here have played at Sands and used strategy that is not even close to basic strategy and we have won.What you need to realize is Sands has the machines programmed to beat basic strategy players,so you have to play totally wrong,then you will win.
Stand on 12s against tens,hit 15 and 16 against small up cards,you will fool the machine and win.Don't tell this trick to too many people or Sands will reprogram the machines.

Hi Hunterhill. I like it: You've mastered it: I salute your perfectly pitched sarcasm $:o)

Quote: Hunterhill

This is nonsense,myself and others who post here have played at Sands and used strategy that is not even close to basic strategy and we have won.What you need to realize is Sands has the machines programmed to beat basic strategy players,so you have to play totally wrong,then you will win.
Stand on 12s against tens,hit 15 and 16 against small up cards,you will fool the machine and win.Don't tell this trick to too many people or Sands will reprogram the machines.

One time I split 5’s and the shuffler caught on fire. Makes sense now.

Quote: michael99000

One time I split 5’s and the shuffler caught on fire. Makes sense now.

One time I walked into the high limit room at Bellagio and sat down at a Baccarat table next to Donnie Osmond. I looked at the Road Map and saw a streak of 19 bankers so I said to Donnie, "Watch this, kid," and I put $50,000 in chips down on player. The dealer gave me two cards, and I knew what they were before they even left the shoe because Bellagio uses Shufflemasters which everyone knows are rigged.

I said, "Eight, monkey," and flipped over the eight of diamonds and queen of hearts. The dealer, a cute Asian girl with hair like brown silk, gave me a wink and pushed $50,000 in chips over to me. I stuffed them in my bulging Adidas track pants and started to walk away but Donnie grabbed my arm and stopped me. "One thing I don't understand," he said, "how did you know player would win?"

I took a deep breath, looked at him with a smirk, adjusted the cool shades on my handsome face, and said:

"Player was due."

I didnt know Donnie played bac

I didn’t know tigerwu and mdawg were the same guy.

Yuccch. Just read this thread for the first time. Yuccch.

I guess if you believe in a God who is active in our lives, or in any form of the supernatural, then you can extend those beliefs to justify a belief in a form of LUCK that goes beyond the realm of physics and statistics. But I have never seen any evidence to persuade me that BAD LUCK is some malicious spiritual force that swoops down on people based on how they play blackjack.

I commend Wiz for asking for the proof that Heatmap says he has. But I suspect that when we see Heatmap's proof, I will once again say Yuccch.

Quote: heatmap

I can only makes these statements because I only have experience at those particular casinos because that’s where I live. I say both their names because I want to remind people that’s what it was and is named as of this point in time. I mainly mean the shufflers not necessarily specific casinos.

You also said you were playing at a low limit table. How does the rigged shuffler account for new players jumping in mid shoe, or players who started the shoe leaving. Or existing players adding a hand.?

All of these things would change the hands being dealt

Wait let me answer for you ..

“Good points everyone. My theory is obviously nonsense”

Quote: gordonm888

I commend Wiz for asking for the proof that Heatmap says he has. But I suspect that when we see Heatmap's proof, I will once again say Yuccch.

I assumed the wizard was just humoring the OP

Quote: GWAE

I didnt know Donnie played bac

All the big shot celebs play bacc.

One time I was hanging out at a duck meat stand on the Cotai strip. A stocky Middle Eastern gentleman surrounded by a small sea of meaty, handsome bodyguards approached me and said, "I saw you playing Baccarat earlier today at the Wynn." It was none other than Adnan Khashoggi. I shook his soft, limp hand, chuckled, and said, "I wasn't playing, I was WINNING."

He chortled and leaned in close to my ear. I caught a whiff of Louis XIII on his breath and he whispered, "Who was that fetching young filly I saw you playing with?" I adjusted the cuff links of the Valentino Couture shirt I had been wearing during my three day gambling binge (only now noticing the sleeves of which were stained with duck sauce), looked him straight in the eye, and said, "Morgan Fairchild."

Adnan chortled again, his eyes widened, and he said, "I had no idea she played Baccarat!" I swallowed the last bit of tender duck from my kebab, tossed a used napkin in the nearby trash can, patted Adnan's pudgy cheek, and said, "My boy, all the big shot celebs play bacc."

We spent the rest of the night losing at Pai Gow and dancing without any rhythm.

Quote: Wizard

Quote: heatmap

If you are playing at sands Bethlehem/wind creek, if you stray from basic strategy you get punished. One move makes or breaks the table, and I’m not the only one in history to ever believe this. If you misstep, the one card usually causes the dealer to receive a different card if they are hitting and it is normally beneficial to them. This example is very clear at the stadium blackjack.

What is your evidence?

If a player takes a hit, that absolutely means the dealer would have received a different card than if the player stands. This is one of those examples where logic is sufficient enough evidence.

To the original point about paying people to play a certain way: that is one of the best ways to make a lot of money at blackjack. If heatmap sits at a full blackjack table and pays everyone $5 per hand to play a certain way, 85% of the players at the table should be able to win over $100 per hour following his directions. I'll take those odds and those winnings.

Quote: heatmap

I am working right now but for you I will throw together a video of one of the many videos Sarah has been making. I have sequences that I believe are graph games. If you play through a sequence, with multiple people, the dealer receives the same number for their hand in 5 out the 7 hands when replayed. This was proven within the first sequence I pulled randomly.

I will attempt to prove this to you with each sequence, by reversing the split deck and reconstructing the initial shuffle. I will then play through as if there is no cut. The cut makes randomness happen.

When I get the init shuffle hopefully I can show you that at every turn, no matter if you leave and another player is added or if you add give people, the sequence can handle and play without being able to be exploited in any way. Unless you had a computer I’ll concede to that.

Thank you for responding.

Still waiting. Are you still working?

Quote: MaxPen

Still waiting. Are you still working?

I can see it means a lot to you guys that this isn’t true. I want to show you the correct way. I’m going to take the risk of taking a video of my play. A little banter and doubt from you guys will never deter me. I feel much stronger because the more I speak with people who actually do play at the sands/ wind creek, the more I believe myself. I wanted to make sure that what I’m about to be attempting to prove and the way I’m going to do it will possibly get me banned if they find the camera. Personally it’s worth it to me because it’s not the sands any more and I’m assuming wind creek can’t ban me from other multi national casinos world wide.

I went back tonight to be really sure. And I’m very sure. Everyone I speak with who frequents that casino thinks something is going on.

And let me explain a bit further since you guys seem to think that I go out of my way to tell people how to play, which I do not, the entire reason I started to ask to pay for the persons bet, was because the man next to me was telling them how to play, and I said to the girl that I would pay her for the bet if she had lost the bet. It was splitting 9s against a two. It was the equivalent of playing freebet blackjack at that place.

Quote: FleaStiff

By that I mean the INDIVIDUAL players. Why don't you sit at your own table, then ALL the cards are going to be dealt according to 'destiny' and you won't have to buy other players submission to your astrology-based views on the cards?

Playing with only one player, the dealer will get roughly half the blackjacks he deals. Play with three other players and he will barely get a fifth of them.
Analyze that.

Quote: heatmap

I can see it means a lot to you guys that this isn’t true. I want to show you the correct way. I’m going to take the risk of taking a video of my play. A little banter and doubt from you guys will never deter me. I feel much stronger because the more I speak with people who actually do play at the sands/ wind creek, the more I believe myself. I wanted to make sure that what I’m about to be attempting to prove and the way I’m going to do it will possibly get me banned if they find the camera. Personally it’s worth it to me because it’s not the sands any more and I’m assuming wind creek can’t ban me from other multi national casinos world wide.

I went back tonight to be really sure. And I’m very sure. Everyone I speak with who frequents that casino thinks something is going on.

And let me explain a bit further since you guys seem to think that I go out of my way to tell people how to play, which I do not, the entire reason I started to ask to pay for the persons bet, was because the man next to me was telling them how to play, and I said to the girl that I would pay her for the bet if she had lost the bet. It was splitting 9s against a two. It was the equivalent of playing freebet blackjack at that place.

To summarize:

The house edge is eating away your money, but you want to blame something else.

I played at a table once where players were telling the 3rd base player what to do. After he loses all his chips he tells the table that he should of played his own way as he would still have chips left and might even be winning.. Another player tells him it was destiny and wasn't meant to be, lol.

Quote: michael99000

To summarize:

The house edge is eating away your money, but you want to blame something else.

Oh no I am well aware that I am eating away at my own edge, because I am a degenerate gambler, who doesn't seem to care about winning, because I have been up a majority of the times, but it was never enough and wanted to keep seeing the marvelous stuff the shuffler can do.

Why are people even entertaining his crazy notions? It's like arguing with someone who believes the earth is flat.