A question for mkl654321

I think, mkl has mentioned a few times, that he is capable of dealing seconds. I am curious about the technique. How exactly do you do it? I mean, watching the dealers where I play, it seems fairly impossible - they take a card from the shoe with their left hand, place it on the table, then turn it over. At which point can you peak for the value of the card so that it's not too late to reach for another? Or do the card's backs need to be marked somehow so that you can feel it with your fingers?

Of course, anyone else who has the knowledge is welcome to chime in as well.

There is no agenda to this question other than curiosity - that is, I am not planning to try and catch some dealer cheating or to become a dealer and cheat myself based on this. I am just curious about how things work.

Wease - im not MKL but a casino dealer.
1. Dealing seconds from a hand-held deck requires a deft skill of peeking at the top card with a reflective wedding ring, and dealing the one below it if needed. It's used to enrich a player working with the dealer, or to wipe out a real prick at the table.
2. Gaffed dealing shoes exist. The dealer presses a tiny spot on the dealing shoe, and it pushes forward the second card, not the top one, once the top card was peeked with a tiny mirror that reflects only to the dealer's eye angle. This can be thwarted by using two colored card deck shoes, and if the top card has a red backing but a blue back card comes out, bang - it was done.

Hard to impliment, and described by John Scarne in his Complete Guide to Gambling.

Edward Thorpe came across double dealing or dealing seconds, after he had implimented and used card counting. He had an experience with a dealer (a midget he recalls) dealing seconds - to throw the game against the slight edge he got from his card counting. In his 1964(?) book "Beat The Dealer."

Quote: weaselman

I think, mkl has mentioned a few times, that he is capable of dealing seconds. I am curious about the technique. How exactly do you do it? I mean, watching the dealers where I play, it seems fairly impossible - they take a card from the shoe with their left hand, place it on the table, then turn it over. At which point can you peak for the value of the card so that it's not too late to reach for another? Or do the card's backs need to be marked somehow so that you can feel it with your fingers?

Of course, anyone else who has the knowledge is welcome to chime in as well.

There is no agenda to this question other than curiosity - that is, I am not planning to try and catch some dealer cheating or to become a dealer and cheat myself based on this. I am just curious about how things work.

I only dealt handheld games back in the day, and dealing handheld seconds is a much different technique than from a shoe.

You can deal seconds out of a shoe, but you need an attendant reflective surface at the mouth of the shoe, to show you whether you WANT to deal a second or not. It's very easy to construct a shoe with such a surface that you, the dealer, can see easily but the players cannot. Ideally, you perfect a move that leaves the top undealt card pulled out just a little bit (in fact, if you're trying to learn to deal quickly from a shoe, it's a bit of a struggle to NOT pull out that next card along with the one you're dealing). If you want to deal the second card instead, you just use one finger to slide the top card back, beyond its original position, and then pull out the second. I never got any good at doing this, but I had it demonstrated to me by several different people.

When I worked in Reno, I had a friend who dealt blackjack at Circus Circus. He only dealt the 50 cent minimum shoe game, and his job--with the full approval of the floorman--was to cheat FOR the players. He could deal a second, and you could KNOW he was doing it, and your only clue would be the sound. The LOLs betting 50 cents loved the fact that they made 20 or 21 on about 3/4 of their double downs, and that the dealer busted so often. The house lost tiny amounts of money, my friend made great tokes, and I'm sure that Circus Circus made some blackjack converts for life. (His shoe actually had those reflective surfaces referred to below.)

So you would need an actual cheating shoe, or you would need to arrange the plastic surfaces of a regular shoe, and the lighting, so that the surfaces reflect. It's probably more trouble than it's worth, and risky in a regulated environment like Nevada. I did see a rather obvious cheating shoe in a small casino in Montana once, and what was kind of hilarious was that the dealer didn't even bother to use whatever peripheral vision he had--he actually turned his head slightly to look at the shoe before he decided whether to deal the second or not.

Thanks, guys, this was very educational.
Funny, the thing with the mirror - so obvious - did not occur to me at all when I was trying to think about this myself.
Paigowdan, the detail about a wedding ring is a really nice touch! I appreciate it!

One thing I was taught as a yound lad was: Don't every play against a left handed dealer.

If you deal left handed, it's a very simple move to see what the top card is and then deal a second.

Quote: scotty81

If you deal left handed, it's a very simple move to see what the top card is and then deal a second.

Interesting. Please explain -- why isn't it a matter of symmetry?

There goes the know it all again, mkl (Joking)...

It's interesting that casinos had this in effect and that we have real feedback from real dealers on this scam. Wow.

Quote: Doc

Interesting. Please explain -- why isn't it a matter of symmetry?

Because the wedding ring is on the left hand?

Quote: Doc

Interesting. Please explain -- why isn't it a matter of symmetry?

It because the card value - printed in the corner of the card - is not in all four corners.

Hold the deck in your left hand (where a right handed dealer holds the deck). Now, turn your hand so your thumb is on the bottom (top of the deck facing down). Now, slide the top corner of the top card back about 1/4" with your thumb. What do you see? A bunch of white space. Nothing. If you want to peak at the top card when you are holding it in your left hand, you have to contort the back corner of the card.

Now, hold the deck in your right hand (where a left handed dealer holds the deck). Turn your hand so your thumb is on the bottom. Slide the top card back so you can peak at the corner. What do you see? Why, you see the value of the card.

With one simple move, a left handed dealer can tilt the deck, slide the top corner back, and peak at the top card. I have seen dealers who are so adept at this that it cannot be dectected even if you know what to look for. It is a devastatingly effective move.

Don't play against a left handed dealer in any hand held card game.

Quote: scotty81

Don't play against a left handed dealer in any hand held card game.

Dealing seconds right-handed, I actually had to flick the inner corner (the one closest to me, and closest to my dealing hand) upwards for a microsecond to see the value of the top card. It made a very faint but perceptible sound. If I decided to deal a second, it came off the deck with a *scrape* sound rather than the normal *swish*. It seemed so obvious to me--like a honking car horn--that I rarely tried it--but when I did try it, no one noticed at all. Later, being familiar with the distinctive sound(s) of seconds dealing helped me detect it being done several times. I couldn't help but wonder how prevalent it was, since in every case I was the only one to react to it. And in a couple of those cases I observed, it was being done much more clumsily and obviously than when I had done it, and I hadn't been very good.

Guess maybe I didn't follow that completely, and I don't know what kind of "moves" would be most obvious from a cheater. I assume that you do not mean looking at the face of the card directly but instead via a reflective surface. As I was trying to follow your description, I picked up a deck and tried sliding the top card slightly to expose a corner to the table. By far, the easiest to do this way is the corner away from my body and away from the hand that is holding the deck. At least on my deck (aren't they all the same?), that makes it easiest to show the card value with my left hand, before taking the card with my right. Is that not the way you would expect a dishonest dealer to do it?

Does my complete lack of knowledge in this area suggest that I am an honest dealer or just that I would be a sucker at card games?

Doc: Now try the same move holding the deck in your right hand, not your left hand (this is how a left handed dealer holds the deck). When the deck is in your right hand, you can slide the top card back TOWARD you to see the value.

It's not that it is impossible to do right handed - there are many capable right handed dealers who can deal seconds. But, it is just so much easier for a lefty. A rank amatuer lefty can (IMO) out deal a moderately experienced righty when it comes to seconds.

Quote: scotty81

Doc: Now try the same move holding the deck in your right hand, not your left hand (this is how a left handed dealer holds the deck). When the deck is in your right hand, you can slide the top card back TOWARD you to see the value.

It's not that it is impossible to do right handed - there are many capable right handed dealers who can deal seconds. But, it is just so much easier for a lefty. A rank amatuer lefty can (IMO) out deal a moderately experienced righty when it comes to seconds.

Maybe it's a matter of what is easier for someone with no experience vs. lots of practice. I find it much easier to hold the deck in my left hand and slide the top card slightly to the right to expose the value to the table. Holding the deck in my right hand and sliding the card back toward me is much more awkward, at least for me, a righty.