BlackjackLover
BlackjackLover
Joined: Oct 2, 2018
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November 12th, 2018 at 5:43:41 PM permalink
I found an online casino that provides standard Blackjack games and versions without house edges. I'm confused. Why are they doing this? Also, if they provide versions without house edges, what is the point of playing the standard versions with house edges? Am I missing something?

https://betvoyager.com/blackjack/
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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BlackjackLover
November 12th, 2018 at 6:09:19 PM permalink
Quote: BlackjackLover

I found an online casino that provides standard Blackjack games and versions without house edges. I'm confused. Why are they doing this? Also, if they provide versions without house edges, what is the point of playing the standard versions with house edges? Am I missing something?

https://betvoyager.com/blackjack/



https://medium.com/edgeless/casino-with-0-house-edge-perfect-marketing-strategy-7c1f2d49beb0

This casino said they make money off of your mistakes.

They say,

Just from the games Edgeless will make 0,83%, as the games we will be offering will be LUCK + SKILL games. If we would offer a roulette with a 0% house edge  in the long run casino would have ZERO profits.But we will offer Blackjack which is a game of LUCK + SKILL, so that our casino will earn profits. Players do not play a perfect game, so they make mistakes and their mistakes increase casino edge which is equivalent of 0.83% edge.
BlackjackLover
BlackjackLover
Joined: Oct 2, 2018
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November 12th, 2018 at 7:49:06 PM permalink
Quote:

Fees for withdrawals from the casino on equal odds games.

There is no house fee on winnings from traditional casino games with a house edge.

If a player plays on equal odds casino games, a 10% house fee will be taken from the player's net winnings at the end of the game session or upon a withdrawal of net winnings from the table through the cashier.


https://betvoyager.com/payrules/

Which is better between playing a game with less than 1% house edge and playing a game with no house edge but having to pay a 10% fee for the profit? By the way, it would be nice if there was a list of online casinos that provide games without house edges.
Last edited by: BlackjackLover on Nov 12, 2018
standbymyman
standbymyman
Joined: Feb 13, 2015
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November 13th, 2018 at 9:24:23 AM permalink
Quote: BlackjackLover

I found an online casino that provides standard Blackjack games and versions without house edges. I'm confused. Why are they doing this? Also, if they provide versions without house edges, what is the point of playing the standard versions with house edges? Am I missing something?

https://betvoyager.com/blackjack/




YES - they can cheat you any time they choose.
BlackjackLover
BlackjackLover
Joined: Oct 2, 2018
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November 13th, 2018 at 10:42:11 AM permalink
Quote: standbymyman

YES - they can cheat you any time they choose.


How?
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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November 13th, 2018 at 10:57:24 AM permalink
Quote: BlackjackLover

How?



the most obvious cheat ive seen, and i dont quite understand it yet, but there is something called a "nonce".

this "nonce", is a password or a key, that is used once during the generation of the random numbers.

if the websites dont publicly publish the nonce, they can change the result of the outcomes, after they have already recieved your bet and generated a result.

if im incorrect about the procedure someone please chime in.
gordonm888
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
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November 13th, 2018 at 11:02:23 AM permalink
Quote: BlackjackLover

https://betvoyager.com/payrules/

Which is better between playing a game with less than 1% house edge and playing a game with no house edge but having to pay a 10% fee for the profit? By the way, it would be nice if there was a list of online casinos that provide games without house edges.



This is an excellent question. Or, a better way to ask it is: how small does house edge need to be to prefer the game with a small house edge over a game with no house edge but a 10% fee on net winnings from a session.

-session length may be important. Sessions cannot be longer than 24 hours -maybe a 4 hour session length is appropriate to assume.
- player can play up to 4 boxes/hands at a time (which introduces covariance).

I expect someone on the forum can answer this.
So many better men, a few of them friends, were dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things lived on, and so did I.
BlackjackLover
BlackjackLover
Joined: Oct 2, 2018
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November 13th, 2018 at 4:13:32 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

the most obvious cheat ive seen, and i dont quite understand it yet, but there is something called a "nonce".

this "nonce", is a password or a key, that is used once during the generation of the random numbers.

if the websites dont publicly publish the nonce, they can change the result of the outcomes, after they have already recieved your bet and generated a result.

if im incorrect about the procedure someone please chime in.


They have a Randomness Control system: https://betvoyager.com/fair-play/.
OnceDear
Administrator
OnceDear
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November 13th, 2018 at 4:29:39 PM permalink
Quote: BlackjackLover

They have a Randomness Control system: https://betvoyager.com/fair-play/.

I've seen this before. The fairness control is awesome. They give you a set of roulette game outcomes IN ADVANCE OF THE GAME in an encrypted zip file and give you the zip password afterwards to show you weren't cheated.
It's almost worth buying or renting a bank of Cray supercomputers to crack the zip password.
Take care out there. Spare a thought for the newly poor who were happy in their world just a few days ago, but whose whole way of life just collapsed..
blackjacklad
blackjacklad
Joined: Dec 14, 2017
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November 13th, 2018 at 7:22:12 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

https://medium.com/edgeless/casino-with-0-house-edge-perfect-marketing-strategy-7c1f2d49beb0

This casino said they make money off of your mistakes.

They say,

Just from the games Edgeless will make 0,83%, as the games we will be offering will be LUCK + SKILL games. If we would offer a roulette with a 0% house edge  in the long run casino would have ZERO profits.But we will offer Blackjack which is a game of LUCK + SKILL, so that our casino will earn profits. Players do not play a perfect game, so they make mistakes and their mistakes increase casino edge which is equivalent of 0.83% edge.



I had a look at Edgeless back in February. Unless they have changed any rules since then their 'edgeless' Blackjack game has a house edge of 0.02%. This is definitely lower than any other game I've found online, however there is the issue of fees. As I understand it when somebody starts a Blackjack session on Edgeless they will have to pay some of their tokens for the cost of running the session. Whether their session consists of just 1 hand, or whether they sit playing for 20 hours, this cost stays the same.

I'm not sure if it's possible to tinker with the rules to get a genuinely 0% Blackjack game. Unlike dice or a roulette wheel with no zero, getting the edge to precisely 0% might be impossible. That being said there is at least 1 rule Edgeless could introduce to bring them closer to a genuinely 0% house edge Blackjack game: 7 card Charlie.

The concept of offering 0% games and having the bankroll and maximum stake limits to get an edge over players because of risk of ruin is sound, especially with the benefit of imperfect play on games with player choices. Even so I decided not to buy any Edgeless tokens. Given that their whole offering is based on their edgeless games, and they state one of their games is 0% when they must know it isn't, I didn't feel like I could trust them.

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