piroukay
piroukay
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September 17th, 2018 at 12:11:46 PM permalink
Of all the best strategy guides posted on this site, I'm not disputing the strategy.

on any given hand, the best strategy, for example, if the player has soft 15 against the dealer's 5, the player is supposed to double. (UK strategy).

Just one question, does the strategy take into account the cards that have been dealt, and now sit in the discard holder (on a manual shuffle)?

Or not, in which case the best strategy advice on any given hand at any given time would be given on the assumption that, on a 6 deck shoe, there are 312 cards and the advice goes on from there?

If it doesn't take into account cards that have been dealt, then even though it's best strategy it is still flawed. And yes I know that this path leads down to card counting, though that is not my concern here.
BleedingChipsSlowly
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piroukay
September 17th, 2018 at 12:38:44 PM permalink
Basic Strategy is based on a “perfect shoe.” Cards played are not accounted for. The probability of each card being delt is calculated as coming from a full shoe.

Yes, Basic Strategy is flawed. So is every counting system. Iirc, even if you had the ability to use perfect strategy, the house would still have an edge. An edge that can be overcome by varying your bets in accordance with a descent strategy.
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billryan
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September 17th, 2018 at 12:55:46 PM permalink
I never really thought about it, but in a SD game, as an example,does BS consider the three card values already dealt so it picks best results based on the remaining 49 cards or based on a 52 card deck.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
unJon
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September 17th, 2018 at 1:32:28 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

I never really thought about it, but in a SD game, as an example,does BS consider the three card values already dealt so it picks best results based on the remaining 49 cards or based on a 52 card deck.

The former. That’s why SD basic strategy differs from 4-8 deck shoe.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
beachbumbabs
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piroukay
September 17th, 2018 at 2:05:43 PM permalink
Quote: piroukay

Of all the best strategy guides posted on this site, I'm not disputing the strategy.

on any given hand, the best strategy, for example, if the player has soft 15 against the dealer's 5, the player is supposed to double. (UK strategy).

Just one question, does the strategy take into account the cards that have been dealt, and now sit in the discard holder (on a manual shuffle)?

Or not, in which case the best strategy advice on any given hand at any given time would be given on the assumption that, on a 6 deck shoe, there are 312 cards and the advice goes on from there?

If it doesn't take into account cards that have been dealt, then even though it's best strategy it is still flawed. And yes I know that this path leads down to card counting, though that is not my concern here.



Strategy is usually based on an infinite or perfect deck. Look further into the Wizard's appendices on Effect of Card Removal to see many exceptions you might want to incorporate. There are also the Illustrious 18 and other indices when counting that, by inference, take some EOR into account.

And there are exceptions to particular plays by card makeup for true Optimal Strategy. One I have used is (going to risk not checking for sure before saying), if you have 14 in SD against a 10, you should hit, except if your 14 is 2 7's, you should stand. That also depends on whether surrender is available, and whether it's hit or stand on soft 17.

The effect of removal of those 2 7's, by already using them, is enough to change that decision, even in a perfect deck.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
unJon
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September 17th, 2018 at 2:35:48 PM permalink
I believe 77 stand against dealer T is right basic strategy for single deck but not double deck or higher. That’s because the effect of removal of the two 7s is greater in a single deck, of course.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
DogHand
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beachbumbabs
September 17th, 2018 at 6:03:39 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

<snip>One I have used is (going to risk not checking for sure before saying), if you have 14 in SD against a 10, you should hit, except if your 14 is 2 7's, you should stand. That also depends on whether surrender is available, and whether it's hit or stand on soft 17.<snip>



beachbumbabs,

Actually, S17/H17 has no effect on this play, because with a 10 upcard, the dealer cannot have a S17.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand
prozema
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September 17th, 2018 at 7:20:36 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

I believe 77 stand against dealer T is right basic strategy for single deck but not double deck or higher. That’s because the effect of removal of the two 7s is greater in a single deck, of course.


Edit... Oops.

I just learned something about single deck splitting. Thanks!
charliepatrick
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September 18th, 2018 at 4:38:11 AM permalink
Infinite deck strategy assumes the chances of any card remains 1/13. For me this is the way I initially look at Blackjack like games - so the first cut is a close approximation. For most purposes this is close enough.

There are several plays which are different if you look at a shoe or single deck and consider the cards you and the dealer already have. Some of these have already been highlighted.

What this means (apart from some SD plays such as 77 vs T) is they are normally a close decision and knowing some cards have or haven't gone would change the right play. Thus consider 10 2 vs 4 which is correct to stand, but you hit with fewer decks - the conclusion to make is you should also hit if you think there have been more 10's than normal and stand if not or you don't know.
beachbumbabs
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September 18th, 2018 at 8:47:05 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

I believe 77 stand against dealer T is right basic strategy for single deck but not double deck or higher. That’s because the effect of removal of the two 7s is greater in a single deck, of course.



Yes, I agree. I said SD, but didn't differentiate that it would change, so that's probably worth emphasizing.

Can't recall now where you surrender 14 if available, otherwise stand (what set of rules and/or decks) but the difference (surrender or not when avail) was between S17/H17 charts. Always best to pull up the Wizard's chart for the game you're playing anyway.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

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