Black Jackpot
If anyone can provide more information, please do.
Based on the layout.... Looks like it’s a completely separate game and not BJ. If it’s player vs player, likely a flat bet amount where everyone bets the same amount. That kinda sucks because the upside for APing is limited to whatever they set the game to. Of course, that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be worthwhile especially if you’re getting a gigantic edge....just that you might not be able to put down hundreds or thousands on it like you potentially would with other games.
Quote: cwazyI’ll take a look at this later today and try to report back. Based on the description, I’d imagine it’s beatable at least some of the time.
Please do. Seems there is some kind of rolling pot until some event happens, like in Tripoli. If it is big enough, it should be vulturable.
Quote: WizardPlease do. Seems there is some kind of rolling pot until some event happens, like in Tripoli. If it is big enough, it should be vulturable.
So I checked this out. Unfortunately, I could not play, because it requires that 2 players be at the table. This puts it in the category of the Gamblit games that are being pulled out of casinos as fast as possible because they receive no play. The dealer told me to "come back and bring a friend" when I tried to buy in just to get a sense of the game play. IMO, this game has zero chance of ever being successful because of this requirement.
The game has a fixed bet of $10 required - that is both the max and min. As I said above, at least 2 players must be present to play. Losing bets go into a pot to be split up between any winners in the hand. The house doesn't take a percentage of each pot, but if the house receives a blackjack, they win the pot. So they're taking ~5% or so overall. Here are the rules:
Quote: SOOPOOHuh? Doesn't sound simple enough to make it. And higher house edge than 6:5.
That's pretty much what I said lol.
I still say a player with sharp tournament skills could probably overcome the dealer blackjack advantage, but much like Gamblit Poker, it isn't a viable advantage play if there are no fish at the table.
Quote: SM777Wasn't this at Raving 2 years ago? Logo and name look very familiar. Can't remember the concept.
I thought that too but wasn't sure enough to remark about it. I think Heather and I tried to do an interview of the maker but there was nobody around to play and the guy at the stand did not come off well on camera. We made the rare decision to nix it half way through and go onto the next table. It may have been a different game but I know it was a community blackjack game like this.
Quote: WizardThank you. One of the rules says a pay table determines what share of the pot players win. Did you catch that? The rule card doesn't say. I personally hate it when rule cards do that. I know you didn't have a chance to play, but I'd be interested to know the mechanism for who has to act first. I imagine it is like poker, but an important rule to omit.
I still say a player with sharp tournament skills could probably overcome the dealer blackjack advantage, but much like Gamblit Poker, it isn't a viable advantage play if there are no fish at the table.
I will swing by there tomorrow and try to grab a photo of the paytable. It's printed on the felt. I was going to while I was there, but a floorman walked over as I was asking the dealer questions, seemingly wondering what an actual player was doing considering sitting down at this table lol. They've always been a bit militant about cameras at Atlantis, so I didn't want to do it right in front of him.
Quote: cwazyI will swing by there tomorrow and try to grab a photo of the paytable.
Thanks, but please don't make a special trip. I do appreciate the help.
When they had a simplified version of craps at the El Dorado, I think it was, the dealer seemed shocked to have someone come over and take an interest. He didn't seem surprised that I asked questions for ten minutes and then didn't play.
Quote: WizardThanks, but please don't make a special trip. I do appreciate the help.
When they had a simplified version of craps at the El Dorado, I think it was, the dealer seemed shocked to have someone come over and take an interest. He didn't seem surprised that I asked questions for ten minutes and then didn't play.
It's no trouble, I have some freeplay to pickup at the Peppermill which is right across the street anyway that I didn't have a chance to do this afternoon.
I know it’s just my opinion, but I have read numerous games the Wiz has asked about that seems much more viable and interesting that never made it anywhere.
One of my all time favorites was the 3 dice football at Osheas years ago. It was a good party game and seemed to disappear quickly.
Quote: BozI say this without trying to insult the game designer, but I wonder how this gets a placement. Just the fact that you need 2 players seems to be a huge negative to getting play and keeping it open with a dealer.
I know it’s just my opinion, but I have read numerous games the Wiz has asked about that seems much more viable and interesting that never made it anywhere.
One of my all time favorites was the 3 dice football at Osheas years ago. It was a good party game and seemed to disappear quickly.
Yeah, I've seen some truly awful games get placements while good games struggle for years and never get a field trial. So much of it is being friendly with a table game director. I have to disagree on the Three Dice Football. I thought that was an awful game. For some reasons the games that get field trials in Reno are especially bad, but it may be a small sample size thing.
Without further ado...
5 cards, no bust - 5 pot shares
Blackjack - 4 pot shares
21 - 3 pot shares
Win - 2 pot shares
Push - 1 pot share
I’d imagine that “shares” are based on the number of shares that are due to winners. So if everyone loses except for 2 people, one of whom wins, and one who has a blackjack, there are 6 pot “shares” - 4 for the blackjack and 2 for the person that just won their hand.
I cannot imagine that this game will really ever have any action. It’s like the Gamblit games, but with a tip-hustling dealer and what a random drunk player will view as insanely complex rules.
Quote: cwazySo here’s the paytable. I didn’t have time to go by there today, but a friend of mine (who is not an AP) was going over there for dinner and I asked him to take a picture of the paytable if nobody was playing. According to my friend, the dealer practically went into seizures trying to not just stop the photo but to grab the phone from his hand, and began yelling for the floor person to come. Apparently my friend practically ran out of the place thinking security would be hot on his trail. I only mention this because I find it truly amazing that casinos manage to stay in business with this kind of reaction to a ploppy customer who wants to learn about their games.
Please tell your friend that I say thank you very much for putting up with that much drama. I also thank you for asking him to. This paranoia about photography reminds me when I took a picture of the exterior of the Rolling Hills casino and security raced out to block my car from backing out of its parking space to leave. More on that story: EXCESSIVE SECURITY AT THE ROLLING HILLS CASINO. Just ridiculous. For what little it is worth, I've taken quite a few pictures of table game felts, but only if the table isn't manned. I know everybody from dealer to shift manager will freak out if they catch someone taking a picture of a piece of felt, so I try to be as discrete as possible.
I'd say this is the worst new table game since Chinese War, but this one is probably worse.
Quote: WizardPlease tell your friend that I say thank you very much for putting up with that much drama. I also thank you for asking him to. This paranoia about photography reminds me when I took a picture of the exterior of the Rolling Hills casino and security raced out to block my car from backing out of its parking space to leave. More on that story: EXCESSIVE SECURITY AT THE ROLLING HILLS CASINO. Just ridiculous. For what little it is worth, I've taken quite a few pictures of table game felts, but only if the table isn't manned. I know everybody from dealer to shift manager will freak out if they catch someone taking a picture of a piece of felt, so I try to be as discrete as possible.
I'd say this is the worst new table game since Chinese War, but this one is probably worse.
No problem. It really does make you wonder how such a game makes it to the casino floor. Atlantis isn’t exactly a small, unsophisticated place. Even if the inventor is friends with somebody in management there, I’d think they would apply some kind of business evaluation to it. Anyone experienced in gaming would have dismissed this in a few minutes. I think there may be room in blackjack for something like a progressive with a very high hit frequency (for suited blackjacks or something), but I don’t think parimutuel blackjack has a future.
Quote: cwazyAnyone experienced in gaming would have dismissed this in a few minutes. I think there may be room in blackjack for something like a progressive with a very high hit frequency (for suited blackjacks or something), but I don’t think parimutuel blackjack has a future.
I personally think progressives should be big and difficult to hit. I've seen several people with ideas for a side pool in blackjack for whoever comes closest to 21, but none have ever gone far. Players simply don't want to win money from other players but from the dealer. That is why they seldom invoke their right to bank in pai gow and pai gow poker.
Quote: VenthusI don't get it. Where does the house make money on this? Somebody mentioned dealer BJ, but the rules seem to state that a dBJ just makes the pot roll over to the next hand. When everybody loses? That makes it sound like a great way to just bleed to death.
When the dealer gets a blackjack, they take the entire pot and there is nothing more to roll over. So they are taking ~5% of all pots. I wouldn't worry about it though. I can't imagine that game will be on this or any other floor much longer.
Quote: VenthusI can't picture what's going through the heads of developers like this and Gamblit who say 'Play with your friends!' for social gambling.
Gamblit is at least very well made. They graphics and sounds couldn't be any better. However, the 25% rake is a killer. If it were less, then advantage players would sit at the table all day long beating anybody who came along.
In the end, I will say, as I've said for years, that so-called skill-based gaming is doomed to extinction.
Quote: WizardGamblit is at least very well made. They graphics and sounds couldn't be any better. However, the 25% rake is a killer. If it were less, then advantage players would sit at the table all day long beating anybody who came along.
In the end, I will say, as I've said for years, that so-called skill-based gaming is doomed to extinction.
How do you feel about the potential for single player skill games? Take a game like Pac Man. Make it pay even money if you get to a certain score in 30 seconds, for example. Have it randomly adjust both difficulty and the score required to win, with the goal being that the best players might win 51% of the time, while the worst players might win 47% of the time, with average players around 49%. When the machine is behind the desired overall hold of the operator, it could choose to increase the percentage of time that it is extremely difficult to win the game, and if it is ahead of where it is supposed to be, it can decrease that percentage.
Single player, in my opinion is the only way for skill games in casinos to work.
(Note: Off of memory, so I may be off in various areas.) Take that installation over at the Venetian by Gamblit... one of them is basically a game of Boggle with 3-5 payouts, depending on how many words you make. Despite maybe 10 games, hitting 5 payouts each time, often with 15+sec left on the timer, I never had a round pet a net positive.
Quote: cwazyHow do you feel about the potential for single player skill games? Take a game like Pac Man. Make it pay even money if you get to a certain score in 30 seconds, for example. Have it randomly adjust both difficulty and the score required to win, with the goal being that the best players might win 51% of the time, while the worst players might win 47% of the time, with average players around 49%. When the machine is behind the desired overall hold of the operator, it could choose to increase the percentage of time that it is extremely difficult to win the game, and if it is ahead of where it is supposed to be, it can decrease that percentage.
Single player, in my opinion is the only way for skill games in casinos to work.
There is Space Invaders Skill Slot machine. Once you make it for the bonus, you can choose to either play it yourself, or the CPU will play it for you.
It gives you a certain amount of shots, and you get $ based on what you hit
I played it at Ellis Island. Its fun
Quote: VenthusMy problem with single-player skill games in the casino like that is everything I've seen really removes any sense of agency.
(Note: Off of memory, so I may be off in various areas.) Take that installation over at the Venetian by Gamblit... one of them is basically a game of Boggle with 3-5 payouts, depending on how many words you make. Despite maybe 10 games, hitting 5 payouts each time, often with 15+sec left on the timer, I never had a round pet a net positive.
I played the Boggle game for a couple hours one night. I liked it. I'm already good at it. I ended making $2 or so overall, betting $1. The random aspect is what the lines actually pay, for those who haven't seen it. Often you would max out your earnings with 5 lines pay, but their total value would be less than your bet. Other times, if you got a decent amount in the first line or two, the game would pay subsequent lines for that amount or greater. So I had a few wins of $5-8. Most were just below $1.
Quote: cwazyHow do you feel about the potential for single player skill games? Take a game like Pac Man. Make it pay even money if you get to a certain score in 30 seconds, for example. Have it randomly adjust both difficulty and the score required to win, with the goal being that the best players might win 51% of the time, while the worst players might win 47% of the time, with average players around 49%. When the machine is behind the desired overall hold of the operator, it could choose to increase the percentage of time that it is extremely difficult to win the game, and if it is ahead of where it is supposed to be, it can decrease that percentage.
I would say that is hardly skill based. The best player is doing only a little better financially than the worst. It becomes just paying to play Pac Man, which you can already do for 25 cents.
However, if you make skill more of a factor, it will become a magnet for Pac Man advantage players and recreational players will get killed.
Quote: beachbumbabsI played the Boggle game for a couple hours one night. I liked it. {snip}
What is this Boggle game? Can you post a link?
Quote: gordonm888What is this Boggle game? Can you post a link?
There doesn't seem to be a link. However, this is a picture of the cabinet they're marketing, with the game displayed.
This is the logo of the game and basic instructions.
So, looking at the screen, the center area shows a letter cube grid. You use your finger to draw a line thru letters either horizontally, vertically, or diagonally to spell at least a 3 letter word. When you lift your finger, the game accepts or rejects it as a unique word in that round.
On the right are 5 gold bars. They have segments. The top bar has 3 segments, the last has maybe 12-16?, graduated. Each letter scored in an acceptable word fills one segment. Plurals of the same word are unique.
The number of pays you get depend on how many segments you fill before time runs out.
You can't stand on a letter. Not sure if you can re-use a letter (go back to it) in the same word; I didn't try.
There is a random spinner that appears by each bar in turn, top to bottom, after the word search is done (either you've filled all the segments or time has run out). The top lands on a value; the next bar will be worth that or more, again by random spinner, whose bottom value adjusts to the worth of the bar above it. Your values are added to determine your win amount, so the more bars you fill, the better your return. I don't think it ever offered multipliers or bonus rounds.
There is a distractor on the left/upper left. If you get three 7 letter words while you're playing (it holds across games), you get a mystery hat. There is NO VALUE to this feature, though the game strongly implies there is. You just waste time and money searching for 7 letter words. I triggered it a couple times before I realized what was happening - so I'll leave it to the player to find out. But it's not worth your time.
Reports say that CET has booked these games into multiple properties, so I'd suggest starting there. Minimum bet is $1/round. I don't know what the maximum is.
Not sure what the comp ratio is on them, but they might be a great place to build TCs. If you're good at word games, that is. But since a lot of fast 3 letter words are equal in value to longer, harder words (I didn't understand that at first, wasted time scanning for long words), most people should be able to get max rewards most of the time.
Couldn't tell if the game was adjusting payouts to my results. Probably, but not necessarily. Could be purely random values.
Quote: beachbumbabs
Reports say that CET has booked these games into multiple properties, so I'd suggest starting there. Minimum bet is $1/round. I don't know what the maximum is.
Do you think my son (David) would be 86'd if he played this game for a few days? Keep me updated if it ever is a real money game......
Quote: SOOPOODo you think my son (David) would be 86'd if he played this game for a few days? Keep me updated if it ever is a real money game......
I think he'd be fine. The randomizer keeps it from paying too much. As I said before, without keeping exact stats, the average return was slightly under the bet amount, even with mostly maximum bars completed.
But, yeah, David would rock the game.
There were jackpot amounts shown on the spinners, such as $90 for $1 even on the top line (which would mean a minimum pay of $450) but they never landed for me. He could overcome the variance with a maximum chance of hitting them, but still can't tell how often if ever they land.
Quote: WizardI would say that is hardly skill based. The best player is doing only a little better financially than the worst. It becomes just paying to play Pac Man, which you can already do for 25 cents.
However, if you make skill more of a factor, it will become a magnet for Pac Man advantage players and recreational players will get killed.
Well, the idea is to create a game that is beatable by some players overall, while the house has no risk of losing money over the long term. So there's perpetual incentive for all players to play, because they know if they get good enough, they can beat it overall, and even poor players would not constantly get killed. Anything else, and you have most players quickly quitting and never playing again.
