Hypothetic legal advice
I have a method, I can prove it. (even if i dont who cares this is hypothetical right?)
Now i have many different paths to take.
But lets just assume I tell everyone and their mom how to do it, because even a 3rd grader can learn this method.
What kind of legal troubles or issues might i face from shuffle master if this method is a sure fire thing, and they have to do something to fix this problem? What if there isnt a fix to this problem? Can i be sued if this problem causes them to fail as a company and people sell stocks etc?
No one can reasonably answer your question without knowing the method.
Quote: gamerfreakIt’s illegal to use any information that another player could not obtain.
No one can reasonably answer your question without knowing the method.
It is visible to all players. Most players actually do what im speaking about. And the issue is that ive modeled my attack based on legal moves that no one can control.
Quote: heatmapWhat kind of legal troubles or issues might i face from shuffle master if this method is a sure fire thing, and they have to do something to fix this problem? What if there isnt a fix to this problem? Can i be sued if this problem causes them to fail as a company and people sell stocks etc?
Why would there be legal troubles? Was Ralph Nader sued for publishing Unsafe at Any Speed?
The fact that you brought up ShuffleMaster might make some people believe (a) that this is not as hypothetical as you make it sound, and (b) another path might be to sell the information rather than give it away, like you do hypothetically. If you do decide to sell it, your issues probably won't be with SM so much as with the people who start losing when SM finds out about the flaw and then demand refunds.
Quote: ThatDonGuyWhy would there be legal troubles? Was Ralph Nader sued for publishing Unsafe at Any Speed?
The fact that you brought up ShuffleMaster might make some people believe (a) that this is not as hypothetical as you make it sound, and (b) another path might be to sell the information rather than give it away, like you do hypothetically. If you do decide to sell it, your issues probably won't be with SM so much as with the people who start losing when SM finds out about the flaw and then demand refunds.
not looking to sell it. i hate people who are trying to sell me anything and i dont want to hate myself. my plan is to make a simple app that tells you who SHOULD win next. Im not always accurate because there is ways to gaurentee a win for someone, not by which cards but another way. The next step after the app is to prove myself by hopefully talking to the right people. The next step is to blindly test it because i dont even need to see the cards. all i need to know is when a card has been taken, and if the player or dealer won or lost.
Quote: heatmapQuote: ThatDonGuyWhy would there be legal troubles? Was Ralph Nader sued for publishing Unsafe at Any Speed?
The fact that you brought up ShuffleMaster might make some people believe (a) that this is not as hypothetical as you make it sound, and (b) another path might be to sell the information rather than give it away, like you do hypothetically. If you do decide to sell it, your issues probably won't be with SM so much as with the people who start losing when SM finds out about the flaw and then demand refunds.
not looking to sell it. i hate people who are trying to sell me anything and i dont want to hate myself. my plan is to make a simple app that tells you who SHOULD win next. Im not always accurate because there is ways to gaurentee a win for someone, not by which cards but another way. The next step after the app is to prove myself by hopefully talking to the right people. The next step is to blindly test it because i dont even need to see the cards. all i need to know is when a card has been taken, and if the player or dealer won or lost.
At this point, I'd suggest you exit this thread. Either you will expose the flaw prematurely or you'll take a lot of abuse for voodoo.
Lose-lose.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI don't buy any of this story.
its good to be skeptical
Quote: heatmapAnyone and everyone should be able to see this and figure it out. Im personally not worried if someone does figure it out. No voodoo here just some basic math. If anyone who knows a lawyer or maybe is a lawyer who had heard about a case that pertains to this id still be interested in listening if you have the time to give. Thanks for the post so far no matter!
Why dont you do it the American way. Get a friend with a camera, go to Scientific Games HQ (6601 Bermuda Road, Las Vegas NV 89119) and expose them on camera. Like how they do it on the news. Thats how you get em..Who needs lawyers
Quote: GlenGWhy dont you do it the American way. Get a friend with a camera, go to Scientific Games HQ (6601 Bermuda Road, Las Vegas NV 89119) and expose them on camera. Like how they do it on the news. Thats how you get em..Who needs lawyers
i dont care about fame or being known. i dont care about shutting down something other people consider illegal or a company that scams people. I forget who said it here in the forums, but they basically said if its not illegal, or against the law whereever the casino is at, its not rigging. As in the house edge is not a legal set amount and therefore can be anything.
i am a person interested in security. not being sued. the randomness of the deck is a part of the security of the casino. I dont even know if what ive found was even considered a flaw or a side effect of whatever it is they are doing to the deck. Personally i think the algorithms might be so complex that not every variable was considered or found to have correlated in some way.
Exposing it to everyone just means SM or whoever will fix the flaw quickly and maybe a lot of people will make a little bit of money. If you give it to a few people, they can play it for a long time and make a lot of money.
Granted, it has to actually work in order to make money, which I am a bit skeptical about. But I'm always willing to hear about some theory or possible flaw that can make money.
Quote: heatmapmy plan is to make a simple app that tells you who SHOULD win next.
So tell me what happens when somebody tries using the app at a table? In Nevada, you run afoul of Nevada Revised Statute 465.075(1), and I doubt that claiming that it's not 100% accurate will be a successful defense against the claim that it "projects the outcome of the game." The "no gaming apps" law does not apply just to telling you what to do in VP. I assume that other casinos would react in a similar fashion.
Quote: heatmapThe next step is to blindly test it because i dont even need to see the cards. all i need to know is when a card has been taken, and if the player or dealer won or lost.
Pardon my skepticism, but something about this doesn't pass the smell test, although it could just be the way you are describing it.
If "even a 3rd grader can learn this method," then why do you need an app?
Also, when you say that all you need to know is "when a card has been taken" and "if the player or dealer won or lost," how do you handle multiple players at a time? And does "when a card has been taken" mean that it matters how many cards were dealt in that game, or just whether or not any were? I am also not grasping the reasoning behind why it would matter whether the player or dealer won; how could the CSM even tell?
Quote: RSIf you're willing to share this information, I'd be happy if you sent me a PM describing it.
Exposing it to everyone just means SM or whoever will fix the flaw quickly and maybe a lot of people will make a little bit of money. If you give it to a few people, they can play it for a long time and make a lot of money.
Granted, it has to actually work in order to make money, which I am a bit skeptical about. But I'm always willing to hear about some theory or possible flaw that can make money.
i would show you or anyone, if they come to me, but i dont trust anyone on the internet, especially with my location. i am very paranoid and would want you to send me an id with equal amounts of information that you require of me. I know you dont want to do that. As of this point, until i figure out a a safe way to meet up with you without exposing my actual residence, there is no way for me to show you. Also i am not willing to electronically transmit the proof of what is actually going on.
let me think about this
Quote: ThatDonGuySo tell me what happens when somebody tries using the app at a table? In Nevada, you run afoul of Nevada Revised Statute 465.075(1), and I doubt that claiming that it's not 100% accurate will be a successful defense against the claim that it "projects the outcome of the game." The "no gaming apps" law does not apply just to telling you what to do in VP. I assume that other casinos would react in a similar fashion.
the app is not meant to be used by anyone except me. it would serve as a recording device as well as a secondary proof that when comapred to the logs of the shuffle master can be synced up and checked if the wins and losses are correlated
Quote: ThatDonGuySo tell me what happens when somebody tries using the app at a table? In Nevada, you run afoul of Nevada Revised Statute 465.075(1), and I doubt that claiming that it's not 100% accurate will be a successful defense against the claim that it "projects the outcome of the game." The "no gaming apps" law does not apply just to telling you what to do in VP. I assume that other casinos would react in a similar fashion.
Class B Felony..no biggie..#2 is pretty saucy as well
Quote: .NRS 465.088 Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.086, inclusive.
1. A person who violates any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.086, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished:
(a) For the first offense, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.
(b) For a second or subsequent violation of any of these provisions, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $10,000. The court shall not suspend a sentence of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this paragraph, or grant probation to the person convicted.
2. A person who attempts, or two or more persons who conspire, to violate any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.086, inclusive, each is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished by imposing the penalty provided in subsection 1 for the completed crime, whether or not he or she personally played any gambling game or used any prohibited device.
(Added to NRS by 1981, 1292; A 1985, 970; 1995, 1295; 2015, 2421)
Also, when you say that all you need to know is "when a card has been taken" and "if the player or dealer won or lost," how do you handle multiple players at a time? And does "when a card has been taken" mean that it matters how many cards were dealt in that game, or just whether or not any were? I am also not grasping the reasoning behind why it would matter whether the player or dealer won; how could the CSM even tell?
it doesnt, from what i can tell, hold up to multiple players. i have described this in my forum post entitled "Dear shufflemaster"
Quote: heatmapi would show you or anyone, if they come to me, but i dont trust anyone on the internet, especially with my location. i am very paranoid and would want you to send me an id with equal amounts of information that you require of me. I know you dont want to do that. As of this point, until i figure out a a safe way to meet up with you without exposing my actual residence, there is no way for me to show you. Also i am not willing to electronically transmit the proof of what is actually going on.
let me think about this
If by some chance you live near Buffalo NY you can pm me. The Wizard and BBB and Face (the moderators) can vouch for me that I am a local doctor who has met many forum members (Axel, djatc, doc, mosca, teddys, speedycrap, etc...) all without any drama or issues.
If I can be of help vouching for someone, or not, you can PM me. I can see your IP, assuming it's not masked, so have an idea of your general location, and perhaps could be of assistance. BTW, PMs are confidential for everyone here.
I have also met close to 100 of the regulars on here. I think most everyone would vouch for me as well, though I'm not an expert like some others are here.
Quote: onenickelmiracleDid you solve the universe?
i wish
Hi Heatmap,Quote: heatmapIt is visible to all players. Most players actually do what im speaking about. And the issue is that ive modeled my attack based on legal moves that no one can control.
OK. You have my attention. And though I'm not sure if you are messing with us, I'm interested in discussing this further, best in PM.
I'm puzzled a little by one aspect: Your motivation?
Working on the assumption that you know something predictive about the ShuffleMaster, I wonder why you do not take some casino for a fortune in the quite legal exploitation of your knowledge. Do you fear that your exploitation of your knowledge might put you in legal jepardy? Or are you afraid of waking up dead and buried in the dessert. Or are you just after some Kudos, either from the membership here, or from Shufflemaster and the casinos.
I do believe that I know one quite simple way that a dishonest casino can abuse the built in features of the SM to deal hands where the dealer would win just too darned often. You already give me lots of clues as to how you could exploit that, but how you might stick out like a sore thumb. But if I'm right, you have the Holy Grail and could hit them for a fortune.
Anyhow, consider this a reach out. I don't want to describe further what I think you have observed.
Think on about that motivation question.
Quote: OnceDearHi Heatmap,
OK. You have my attention. And though I'm not sure if you are messing with us, I'm interested in discussing this further, best in PM.
I'm puzzled a little by one aspect: Your motivation?
Working on the assumption that you know something predictive about the ShuffleMaster, I wonder why you do not take some casino for a fortune in the quite legal exploitation of your knowledge. Do you fear that your exploitation of your knowledge might put you in legal jepardy? Or are you afraid of waking up dead and buried in the dessert. Or are you just after some Kudos, either from the membership here, or from Shufflemaster and the casinos.
I do believe that I know one quite simple way that a dishonest casino can abuse the built in features of the SM to deal hands where the dealer would win just too darned often. You already give me lots of clues as to how you could exploit that, but how you might stick out like a sore thumb. But if I'm right, you have the Holy Grail and could hit them for a fortune.
Anyhow, consider this a reach out. I don't want to describe further what I think you have observed.
Think on about that motivation question.
My motivation initially was to win a lot of money. I do fear waking up dead. But now I see it as more of an opportunity to put something real on my resume. Like all gamblers I have lost a lot of money prodding at things to see if I can catch a glimpse of something and I did. But I've depleted my gambling money on it only to end up perfecting this method on paper. I depleted my money because i didnt understand a mathematical property and how it affected which position i was in. I at one point have said it has nothing to do with counting cards but it does involve keeping track of something.
It also involves a move. This move is what I said "you see people do". People don't actually need to do this move. The "move" was simply adding and removing a player for one round and under the correct conditions you end up on what i call the "dealers track". As in the next 4 cards that come out are now reversed. You get the dealers would be cards and the dealer gets yours.
This was just the beginning of my theory and what I've arrived at has stemmed from this crazy talk.
And also if you read my assumption about a "dealer track" - it makes the grave assumption that the dealer always wins - which they don't.... so say I decide without playing halfway through my shoe to immediately place myself into a different position and it's the losing position? That means i was supposed to win playing basic strategy. This along with another factor is the reason I don't want to tell people about it. It has went completely south for me in some cases.
Quote: heatmapMy motivation initially was to win a lot of money. I do fear waking up dead. But now I see it as more of an opportunity to put something real on my resume. Like all gamblers I have lost a lot of money prodding at things to see if I can catch a glimpse of something and I did. But I've depleted my gambling money on it only to end up perfecting this method on paper. I depleted my money because i didnt understand a mathematical property and how it affected which position i was in. I at one point have said it has nothing to do with counting cards but it does involve keeping track of something.
It also involves a move. This move is what I said "you see people do". People don't actually need to do this move. The "move" was simply adding and removing a player for one round and under the correct conditions you end up on what i call the "dealers track". As in the next 4 cards that come out are now reversed. You get the dealers would be cards and the dealer gets yours.
This was just the beginning of my theory and what I've arrived at has stemmed from this crazy talk.
And also if you read my assumption about a "dealer track" - it makes the grave assumption that the dealer always wins - which they don't.... so say I decide without playing halfway through my shoe to immediately place myself into a different position and it's the losing position? That means i was supposed to win playing basic strategy. This along with another factor is the reason I don't want to tell people about it. It has went completely south for me in some cases.
Ok...
Resume: Popping 'Found a massive casino weakness and alerted the world to it' would hardly enhance a CV. It would read like you are a crank, degenerate gambler or someone too naive to get rich. Maybe you could publish a book, but would it really be a best seller after the loophole was closed?
Exploit it: Now it would make a far better best seller to write how you made a million while trying to persuade the casinos that they had a flawed game. Even without book sales profit, you'd still have the million.
Personally, I'd be inclined to use the knowledge to make one million and then invite the casino's and Shufflemaster to buy your consultancy. If they decline, just make another million. Reading about how you lost money so far does give me the impression that your holy grail is not so shiny. But if you lost money before discovering 'the secret' then prime motivation really ought to at least be win back what you lost.
And I do quite read between the lines about switching track with the dealer with moves "you see people do": perfectly ordinary moves that alter the flow. Not an exact science if the game has scheduled for you to win something like a fair number of hands. There are maths guys here who could amplify the profit tenfold if they had the right knowledge. I probably could.
All that said, you do come out with some way out there theories in your assorted posts and your credibility building has some way to go.
There's always PM if you are shy. Remember that anything you say in PM is privileged info which cannot be quoted.
I state that there is a set amount of wins and losses for the "superman" player who has no fear of losing and they will hit on every 16 against basic strategy. Even if you think youve won, the dealer being able to hit last is where the advantage of the casino comes in. The dealer always has a last chance to make up the points.
When you switch the cards around as I've explained before, the next cards in the shoe are beneficial usually to the dealer, and when you flip this cards around and when you arrive at specific situations you are safe to hit because the cards you received were meant for the dealer rather than the player.
One card, not excluding any burn card or a bust card will pull the deck back to the dealers (or your) favor. <-- this is why you don't need to add and remove a hand, because simply staying on a 4 card hand will place you in the position you would normally be in minus one.
Like I said this all amounts to it. But I'm lazy and like to simplify things.
There are times in the game where 'you just see it coming'. You have doubled your ace against the dealer 6 only to end up with your hand being Ace-3 while the dealer gets a 5 and a face for 6-5-10=21. You groan and mumble 'saw that coming!Quote: heatmapThe "ah ha!" Moment came from perusing the method of altering the flow. It's not a shiny method whatsoever.
Like I said this all amounts to it. But I'm lazy and like to simplify things.
And that might be your secret. See it coming a bit sooner and mess up the flow. Don't double the ace, hit it to get the 3 then hit it again to get the 'deaers' 5 giving you 19. Dealer then gets a 10 and another 10 to bust.
Mess up the flow to get the game and at the same time put the cards out of sync by one card. If playing heads up, you now get the 'nice cards' destined for the dealer.
Sounds great. Now you are in dealer track, up your bets.
If only life were so simple. If only the cards were not coming out at random!
Quote: OnceDearThere are times in the game where 'you just see it coming'. You have doubled your ace against the dealer 6 only to end up with your hand being Ace-3 while the dealer gets a 5 and a face for 6-5-10=21. You groan and mumble 'saw that coming!
And that might be your secret. See it coming a bit sooner and mess up the flow. Don't double the ace, hit it to get the 3 then hit it again to get the 'deaers' 5 giving you 19. Dealer then gets a 10 and another 10 to bust.
Mess up the flow to get the game and at the same time put the cards out of sync by one card. If playing heads up, you now get the 'nice cards' destined for the dealer.
Sounds great. Now you are in dealer track, up your bets.
If only life were so simple. If only the cards were not coming out at random!
Yeah like I said the magic came from this theory and I didn't continue to try that method for very long because it wasn't that simple. I say it is simpler. Pay close attention to every message I've sent you. Read between the lines and you will see the trick.
How did your last thread go where you said you could beat an MD3, whatever that even means?
Quote: heatmapI should be offended. that would be some low energy trolling if so
....and my other question?
Quote: SM777....and my other question?
youve found the hypothetical legal question thread about how i should go about releasing this info or what i should do in general.
I get people looking for the holy grail of errors, and granted some have happened over the years that make smart players a lot of money, but I don’t see it here.
Have at it guys!
Quote: BozSeems like more of the Shufflemaster is rigged nonsense. As soon as I heard removing a player to get the dealers cards, you know where this is going.
I get people looking for the holy grail of errors, and granted some have happened over the years that make smart players a lot of money, but I don’t see it here.
Have at it guys!
Everyone is misunderstanding the function of adding and removing a player. Its to mathematically place yourself into a position that you normally would have been in minus one. Then you play and see which "side" works better. But you dont even need to add and remove a player to perform the position manipulation. There are much less risky ways to do it. But once again this is an outdated function of the routine which is no longer applied. This was a theory and only a theory because i know its not true any more. It worked for limited periods of time. And making money for limited periods of time wasnt profitable for extended periods of time.
Im tired of people using the word rigged too where the hell did that term even come from!?
Quote: heatmapyouve found the hypothetical legal question thread about how i should go about releasing this info or what i should do in general.
You could tell us. Or you could keep the information to yourself. But if you choose to remain silent or be intentionally vague it will become obvious to everyone that you are lying
Quote: heatmapOkay guys, so lets just assume that I have found a way to not predict, but tell you exactly when you will win, or when the dealer will win.
I have a method, I can prove it. (even if i dont who cares this is hypothetical right?)
Now i have many different paths to take.
But lets just assume I tell everyone and their mom how to do it, because even a 3rd grader can learn this method.
What kind of legal troubles or issues might i face from shuffle master if this method is a sure fire thing, and they have to do something to fix this problem? What if there isnt a fix to this problem? Can i be sued if this problem causes them to fail as a company and people sell stocks etc?
Hypothetical, so who cares?
Quote: TomGYou could tell us. Or you could keep the information to yourself. But if you choose to remain silent or be intentionally vague it will become obvious to everyone that you are lying
Yeah, I disagree with this assessment. He has offered to meet anyone who wants in person and share his observation. I don't know the value of his insight, but he doesn't seem to be lying. I've spoken with him a little via PM. Can't vouch for it, but I think he's making an honest effort of sharing this without spoiling it by just blurting here.
At best, it's too early to suggest it's a lie. And it does not seem to be a scam or system sale. Remains to be seen.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/how-advantage-players-game-the-casinos.html
Quote: IbeatyouracesMaybe he's figured out something like Grosjean did with card craps.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/how-advantage-players-game-the-casinos.html
That's just it. Grosjean and hundreds of others have studied the game for years and didn't find anything worth exploiting. I'd wager they didn't miss this.
Quote: TomGYou could tell us. Or you could keep the information to yourself. But if you choose to remain silent or be intentionally vague it will become obvious to everyone that you are lying
I know I've seen this two step with every holy grail finder ever it's an old trick but I'm being vague because you are literally hearing how vague my mind was when exploring and coming to the method I've come to. There is nothing vague after the story
your not gambling? your writing about it...Quote: heatmapyour not gambling? your reading about it...
And you have the stone cold nuts.
If what I think you are suggesting really works. You just find the right people you could make a bunch of money and never have to play yourself or put up any money.
Quote: AxelWolfyour not gambling? your writing about it...
And you have the stone cold nuts.
If what I think you are suggesting really works. You just find the right people you could make a bunch of money and never have to play yourself or put up any money.
as of this point i am going to go and test what i have at this point. I know it works to a certain extent, i am at this point saying about 80% of the time i can "stay" on track. When i hit that other 20%, its a disaster. There is one issue which i, you, or anyone CANT control and this is how they randomize the actual outcomes. they can "string" the outcomes together based on what ive found. but the way that they are "strung" together is how they are predicted.
