Black Gold 21

I have been playing a video blackjack game at Harrah's Cherokee in NC which should have a small player advantage using optimal strategy if the cards are truly random. It is made by Pot O Gold and named Black Gold 21. The rules are single deck, shuffle after every hand, dealer stands on soft 17 and peaks for BJ, BJ pays 3:2, double on 9 10 11, no surrender, split to 2 hands only, no double downs or BJ after the split but you can hit split aces, and a 6 card charlie to boot. I don't know if this is normal for charlie rules but the dealer also stops after drawing 6 cards; so if you stand on 16 and the dealer draws 6 cards to 15 then you win. The bet spread is fairly narrow at $2 up to $50 in $2 increments, so the poor schmuck betting a martingale would quickly run into the maximum bet. There is a double-up high-low card feature, but this seems like a waste of time to me as the odds are 50-50 and using it would only exaggerate wins or losses depending on how lucky you got.

Wizard, I would love to see a composition-dependent strategy for single deck with a 6 card charlie. I saw your charlie chart at https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/strategy/charlie.html but I don't think it was designed for single deck. Also, I'm sure there could be more composition-dependent exceptions for split hands, but I know that could get quite complicated.

I have played these machines for hours on end so I know how they play. I find it very difficult to believe the cards are random. I keep track of units of wins vs losses and have noticed patterns numerous times as if the machines run in cycles. As just one example, I played a machine until I was down EXACTLY 100 units from the peak I had reached sometime earlier, and then began a wild winning streak straight back to the top. In the worst losing streak I encountered I estimate I played no more than 7500 hands and the dealer got 275 units ahead of me as I played near perfect strategy. Looking at the risk of ruin charts at https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix12.html which are based on less favorable rules this looks to me statistically improbable.

I was able to find an owners manual for these machines at http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:oVL4ZsxFbekJ:www.slotsdirect.com/potofgold/Pot_of_gold_CD/Good%2520POG%2520Manual.pdf+%22black+gold+21%22+blackjack&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShqgH12fo1iGVORw1HEx3L80lZHJj__AydR6j5apXXX1yI4u9NHp4X5u29Np3nP-gUyhxmlZ96_BzOdPVp-fvRiFU7sT_V7xHeMqB4Hdu6AlgL7M8LcfrsqjGMQlVgED_xmOLyX&sig=AHIEtbSgqbiSsDQLmUWYhjTswxumG_SHLw which appears to indicate the only adjustment that could be made to the machine affecting payout percentages would be the pay table. But adjusting this would change the rules of the game such as BJ only pays 6:5 or something similar. This manual is probably out of date. For what it's worth I questioned one of the technicians at Harrah's one time and he claimed that they have a number of different adjustments they can make to affect payouts, not just the pay table. I questioned a manager about the fairness of the machines and he was guarded in his responses but believed they do use a RNG and that there is a house advantage, but he wouldn't say how much, and they do not make audits available to the public. There are no Payout percentages displayed on the machines. If I could prove that the cards are not random would there be any legal implications?

Quote: jackblack21

.... If I could prove that the cards are not random would there be any legal implications?

This is not at all my field, but I would start with one question to you: To whom would you take your complaint, the tribal council?

If you saw the game in Las Vegas and had some proof, that might be a far different matter.

I looked at that document briefly. P. 53 appears to say that normal wins pay 1.5 for 1 (a win of 1/2 credit rather than even-money) and blackjacks pay 6.5 for 1. Is that accurate / does it reflect the game you played?

Quote: jackblack21

I have been playing at Harrah's Cherokee in NC

'nuff said.

Everyone should know that video games should not be expected to be what we consider "fair" in any Indian casino. It's like playing at on-line casinos. Gamblers are already taking chances on fair games. Why add in the extra risk of not really knowing what a casino is doing according to their own sovereign or self-regulated rules?

Quote: FleaStiff

>I have been playing at Harrah's Cherokee in NC
'nuff said.

My enough said comment applied specifically to that Cherokee casino but a good deal of what I've heard about that place probably applies to other Indian casinos as well. When there is no oversight or accountability, there is no incentive.

Mathextremist said: I looked at that document briefly. P. 53 appears to say that normal wins pay 1.5 for 1 (a win of 1/2 credit rather than even-money) and blackjacks pay 6.5 for 1. Is that accurate / does it reflect the game you played?

No, that was just an example paytable in the manual - the rules of the game I played are as I originally outlined.

Quote: FleaStiff

My enough said comment applied specifically to that Cherokee casino but a good deal of what I've heard about that place probably applies to other Indian casinos as well. When there is no oversight or accountability, there is no incentive.

Well, I don't play their slots, their blackjack tables, or even their video poker because the pay tables suck. I play this game, and this game only, simply because according to the rules set forth and composition-dependent strategy on the Wizard's site the player should actually have an advantage over the house. I also thought any advantage game would peak you guy's interest. As for accountability they are supposed to be accountable to the National Indian Gaming Commission here http://www.nigc.gov/ but I don't know what all this entails. So far I have won more on these machines than I have lost, and the comps have given me free meals (if you can stomach them) and free hotel night stays.

Quote: FleaStiff

>I have been playing at Harrah's Cherokee in NC
'nuff said..

While I am surely not so active in gambling as many on this forum, I have had 62 casino sessions thus far in 2010, which I think shows my interest in such things. I live in North Carolina, less than three hours drive from Cherokee, and I have visited that casino exactly one time, more than four years ago. The place holds no appeal for me, even though I go to other Harrah's facilities regularly.

I have played in 30 tribal casinos that I know of, from California to Canada to Carolina to Connecticut and elsewhere, most of which I would be willing to play in again. But if I had any suspicion that a game at one of those places was not on the up and up, I would forget about "legal implications" and would avoid the place like the plague.

I would take a similar approach if I were suspicious of a cruise ship casino game (though some of my fellow passengers have sometimes expressed concerns). In a similar vein, I have never engaged in on-line gaming with an off-shore casino for real money.

Quote: Doc

While I am surely not so active in gambling as many on this forum, I have had 62 casino sessions thus far in 2010, which I think shows my interest in such things. I live in North Carolina, less than three hours drive from Cherokee, and I have visited that casino exactly one time, more than four years ago. The place holds no appeal for me, even though I go to other Harrah's facilities regularly.

I have played in 30 tribal casinos that I know of, from California to Canada to Carolina to Connecticut and elsewhere, most of which I would be willing to play in again. But if I had any suspicion that a game at one of those places was not on the up and up, I would forget about "legal implications" and would avoid the place like the plague.

I would take a similar approach if I were suspicious of a cruise ship casino game (though some of my fellow passengers have sometimes expressed concerns). In a similar vein, I have never engaged in on-line gaming with an off-shore casino for real money.

I no longer play at Injun casinos because of a) the lack of oversight and b) the lack of recourse available. If they wanted to stick it to you, the only remedy you would have would be to run, not walk, for the parking lot and get the hell off the rez before the tribal cops came and arrested you for being a nuisance.

The tribes themselves might be relatively honest, but ALL tribal casinos are run by outside contractors--the tribes have neither the manpower nor the expertise to run a casino by themselves. And those contractors, again, whose only oversight is the tribal council, have EVERY incentive to pump up the profits, especially in the short term, so they can sell that to future clients.

I'm sure you've all seen Injun casinos that in the space of a year or two, transformed themselves from a small inflatable dome to a twenty-seven-story luxury hotel. I doubt that that was done with profits from fair games.

MKL- my local Indian Casino (Seneca Niagara) was packed for many years when it first opened. With the inherent house edge in all the games I see no reason to imply that they needed to cheat. And those house edges imply good play... the paigow players can be very weak- I almost feel bead banking against them (almost).

Quote: mkl654321

....I'm sure you've all seen Injun casinos that in the space of a year or two, transformed themselves from a small inflatable dome to a twenty-seven-story luxury hotel. I doubt that that was done with profits from fair games.

I suspect that such rapid facility expansion is funded by debt, as it is for most enterprises. Successful operation (with fair or unfair games) can lead to the repayment of the debt. I think I heard recently that a lender was experiencing some difficulty collecting tribal debt, but I didn't pay a lot of attention to that news item. Perhaps you recall the details.

Quote: SOOPOO

... I almost feel bead banking against them (almost).

There just has to be some tasteless joke based on the typo, but I will leave that to others.

Quote: Doc

I suspect that such rapid facility expansion is funded by debt, as it is for most enterprises. Successful operation (with fair or unfair games) can lead to the repayment of the debt. I think I heard recently that a lender was experiencing some difficulty collecting tribal debt, but I didn't pay a lot of attention to that news item. Perhaps you recall the details.

Sure, but any lending would have to be based on cash flow, and future projections thereof. If a casino (Injun or other) was raping its players and making a tidy profit, then it would be a more attractive borrower as it would demonstrably be able to service its debt. That's why I think that a small Injun casino with expansionist ambitions and no regulatory oversight would have extremely strong incentives to cheat its customers. Another factor would be the Injun casino's geographic isolation and lack of competition, and its serving (if that's the word) a market where there previously were no casinos at all. Customers would flock in, and keep coming back for at least a while, even if they WERE getting raped, because of the novelty of the whole experience. This, in fact, is what fueled the rapid and massive expansion of Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun.

I've read of several lender vs. casino brouhahas in the Pacific Northwest, where some banks are rather belatedly waking up to the fact that the only place they can sue for recovery of defaulted debt is in tribal courts (they don't bother to sue in state or county courts because any judgment would be unenforceable anyway).

Quote: jackblack21

Mathextremist said: I looked at that document briefly. P. 53 appears to say that normal wins pay 1.5 for 1 (a win of 1/2 credit rather than even-money) and blackjacks pay 6.5 for 1. Is that accurate / does it reflect the game you played?

No, that was just an example paytable in the manual - the rules of the game I played are as I originally outlined.

If that manual applies to the actual game you're playing, I'd expect it's on the up-and-up. Noticeably, there are no settings in that document to affect any card distributions, number of decks, or anything else related to the game besides the pay for "blackjack" and "other win". If someone at the casino set the game to be +EV, which seems possible given the "Change Paytable" option, then perhaps they weren't paying attention.

At any rate, the extrinsic evidence for a "straight" game is very strong: authorization to manufacture gaming machines is a hard-won privilege, not a right. Most manufacturers operate in multiple regulatory jurisdictions, any one of which could withdraw a manufacturers' license if that company were found to be doing anything that might cast doubt on the legitimacy of its products. For example, if Bally decided to produce a rigged game for some tribal casino and the NGC found out about it, it's likely that they would issue a finding of unsuitability for Bally to manufacture in Nevada. That'd mean all sorts of bad news for Bally, and that's not a risk worth taking. Vision Gaming / SED Gaming is a smaller company, but they've got the same multi-jurisdictional licensing to maintain.

Quote: MathExtremist

If that manual applies to the actual game you're playing, I'd expect it's on the up-and-up. Noticeably, there are no settings in that document to affect any card distributions, number of decks, or anything else related to the game besides the pay for "blackjack" and "other win". If someone at the casino set the game to be +EV, which seems possible given the "Change Paytable" option, then perhaps they weren't paying attention.

At any rate, the extrinsic evidence for a "straight" game is very strong: authorization to manufacture gaming machines is a hard-won privilege, not a right. Most manufacturers operate in multiple regulatory jurisdictions, any one of which could withdraw a manufacturers' license if that company were found to be doing anything that might cast doubt on the legitimacy of its products. For example, if Bally decided to produce a rigged game for some tribal casino and the NGC found out about it, it's likely that they would issue a finding of unsuitability for Bally to manufacture in Nevada. That'd mean all sorts of bad news for Bally, and that's not a risk worth taking. Vision Gaming / SED Gaming is a smaller company, but they've got the same multi-jurisdictional licensing to maintain.

If this game is on the up-and-up then blackjack lovers should grab a tomahawk and flock to Cherokee to play a +EV game. I understand single-deck games are hard to find, and with a six card charlie too...man, that's finger-lickin good! I invite anyone who is willing able - visit the Eastern Band of the Cherokee Indians and play one of these machines for 6 or 8 hours and come back and tell us if you think the cards are random. Even if they are not, and my theory about the cycles is correct, you could still learn to recognize the cycles and exploit them. The machines are on isle D11 near the Fresh Market.

The six-card-charlie is one of the reasons I think the game you played isn't the same as the one described in the manual. There was no mention of that in the manual unless I just missed it in my skimming, and it's an odd and unnecessary rule unless there are some GUI considerations involved. (That's been known to happen.)

For anyone who is interested in this game - Pot O Gold's Black Gold 21 - I have done enough tests now to confirm to my satisfaction, and I am 100% positive that the cards are NOT random. This is not an opinion, this is a fact, and this is not a case of falsly seeing patterns in random events. This does mean that this game is not "fair" to the players in the sense that we understand fairness. However, this does not mean that the game is unbeatable. It simply means that correct strategies for winning have nothing to do with strategy charts based on probabilities of random cards. That's all I'm going to say about that - if you're interested in the game you should be able to figure out the rest for yourself pretty easily.

There are several casinos in New Mexico that are run by the tribe. They also appear to be fair in every way. Of course I am not privvy to their books, but my meager bankroll stretches farther there than in Nevada. As a matter of fact, one in particular has the payback percentage posted on the machines. Not the specific percentage, but 'this machine pays better than 90%' or some such.

I disagree that all tribal casinos are run by outside contractors.

Quote: mkl654321

I no longer play at Injun casinos ...

mkl, can you please stop using the term "Injun"? I assume it was an honest mistake on your part and that you don't know the true meaning of the word. "Injun" is a racially offensive epithet used towards Native Americans (or First Nations in Canada) and should not be used here on these forums.