Is texting signals legal?

Quote: WangSanJose

Using equipment in casino advantage play is a felony, but how about smartphones?
For example, my friend sets his iPhone in vibration mode and kept in his pocket without looking or touching it while sitting at a table. I text him while standing to signal him the actions.
Another example would be texting to call in(vibration) BP.
Even the casino personnel found out I'm texting, do they have the right to look our phones and assert we're cheating?

Quote: WangSanJose

Even the casino personnel found out I'm texting, do they have the right to look our phones and assert we're cheating?

Quote: Zcore13

They do not have the right to look at or even take your phone from you. Casino Staff are not the police. I believe even the police would need a search warrant to view the contents of your phone.


ZCore13

Quote: beachbumbabs

I would have to agree with this particular aspect. But that constraint wouldn't stop them from taking action against you if they knew what you were doing.

Quote: Nevada Revised Statutes, section 465.075

It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:
1.  Projects the outcome of the game;
2.  Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;
3.  Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4.  Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission.

Quote: Zcore13

They do not have the right to look at or even take your phone from you. Casino Staff are not the police. I believe even the police would need a search warrant to view the contents of your phone.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

They do not have the right to look at or even take your phone from you. Casino Staff are not the police. I believe even the police would need a search warrant to view the contents of your phone.


ZCore13

Quote: ZenKinG

They dont have the right, but they do it anyway. Months ago MGM zoomed in on my phone, stole my name and then searched me in OSN.

Quote: ZenKinG

They dont have the right, but they do it anyway. Months ago MGM zoomed in on my phone, stole my name and then searched me in OSN. As soon as I jumped into the table at +1, they mentioned me by name and told me I cannot play. These casinos think theyre smart, but Im a step ahead of them. Ive been back back plenty of times since then. Good luck stopping me

Quote: Zcore13

They do have the right to zoom in on your phone. That's not taking your phone or taking information from it. If you are in their establishment with your phone out, there's not much you can do except hide the screen or not use it.

I don't think they are too worried about stopping you. You're a minor league card counter. I doubt they even care you are there unless you make it obvious that you are playing against them with an advantage. You've previously demonstrated that you are paranoid that they are cheating you and singling you out. Your belief that they zoomed in on your screen and somehow got your name off of it, which I doubt is even visible anywhere, is suspect at best.


ZCore13

Quote: ZenKinG

Its amazing how unbelievably bias you are towards casinos. Gotta protect the horse that feeds you huh?

Basically you just told me they are allowed to view my private information on my phone and to you thats not the equivalent of 'taking of information'? Wow. Good luck defending that position in court. Jury would laugh you and MGM out of the building. Also i guess the taking of and distribution of a counters photo to other properties is not the 'taking of information' either right? Or the entry of a counters photo into a private database only to be used by casinos.

Yeah im a minor league counter, thats why they were scared to death to let me play one hand as well as other properties. 2x150 2x200 and they nearly had a stroke. Wait till i bang it to 2x300. They might faint. And guess what theres nothing you or any vegas casino can do to stop me. Good luck trespassing me after the precedent set in the Wilkinson case. I suggest you start informing your superiors to begin rolling out those 6:5 and even money blackjack tables to get rid of me.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

In Nevada, if you are doing something that would be illegal if you were making the bets yourself, then it is just as illegal for you to do it and then signal someone else. To quote the forum's old friend, NRS 465.075:

Quote: Nevada Revised Statutes, section 465.075

It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:
1.  Projects the outcome of the game;
2.  Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;
3.  Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4.  Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission.

Quote: AxelWolf

Let me give an example.

Let's say I'm in Vegas playing a VP and I notice the card reader is messed up and giving me 100x points and the card is worth. .2 in cash back( actually free play ).

Now I have close to a 20% advantage, so I play 30 hours while cashing out free play and winning at an ungodly rate.

It is very possible the casino can't figure out what's going on, they just know something is up. So, they call NGC and they also cannot figure out what's up. They CAN come arrest you. For all they know you are using a cheating device, or you hacked the card reader, or you know someone on the inside who set it up.

Reasonable suspicion.

Quote: AxelWolf

Let me give an example.

Let's say I'm in Vegas playing a VP and I notice the card reader is messed up and giving me 100x points and the card is worth. .2 in cash back( actually free play ).

Now I have close to a 20% advantage, so I play 30 hours while cashing out free play and winning at an ungodly rate.

It is very possible the casino can't figure out what's going on, they just know something is up. So, they call NGC and they also cannot figure out what's up. They CAN come arrest you. For all they know you are using a cheating device, or you hacked the card reader, or you know someone on the inside who set it up.

Reasonable suspicion.

Quote: RS

Quote: ThatDonGuy

In Nevada, if you are doing something that would be illegal if you were making the bets yourself, then it is just as illegal for you to do it and then signal someone else. To quote the forum's old friend, NRS 465.075:

Quote: Nevada Revised Statutes, section 465.075

It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:
1.  Projects the outcome of the game;
2.  Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;
3.  Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4.  Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission.

I find this stuff interesting, but I think I disagree with your interpretation of the quoted statute(s?).

"It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:"

Basically means:

"It's illegal to use a device that is made to gain an advantage in a casino."

Show Spoiler

I used bold, italics, and underline to show which is which.

The phone is not "made, programmed, set up....etc." to gain an advantage. It is simply used as a form of communication. Using a cell phone to tell someone "the count is hot, wong into this table // the RC is +7 ... etc." is the exact same as telling the person that out loud (audibly) the count is hot // wong this table // RC is +7.

Now if you're using an app to add and subtract, tell you the RC, TC, advantage, etc. then that's a different ball game because the device is used to gain an advantage. Whereas with simply texting/calling someone, you are communicating with that person something that can also be legally communicated orally. (Not that the casino would be okay with you saying out loud "The count is +12, bet the farm everyone!" but that is still perfectly legal, is it not?) The statute says nothing about communication.

Texting or calling someone clearly doesn't violate #1-4, whereas having a specific card-counting app/device would violate (at least) one of the #1-4.

Something (IMO) people misinterpret about this statute is that ALL DEVICES are illegal. The statute doesn't say that. It says a device is illegal if it is used to gain an advantage. According to this, using an app like "video poker hand analyzer" while playing VP in a casino, assuming the game is -EV, would be perfectly legal, since you don't have an advantage.


Of course, I ANAL. But I wouldn't go doing stuff with devices because it may technically be legal. Just come up with some signals. Some for "far away" (visually), some for nearby (visually), and some for vocal or audible signals.







Reasonable suspicion is NOT "for all they know you could be...." There has to be a driving factor behind the reasonable suspicion, winning is not one. By that logic, anyone can be arrested for winning. Reasonable suspicion is not a catch-all to allow a casino to go on a witch hunt to try to figure out what you're doing.

Now, if you do something that's suspicious or may warrant suspicion, that's a different story. Just playing (and winning)? Nope. If you're shoving stuff into the card reader, pulling out some weird device, or something like that -- then yeah, sure.


Of course, we all know what "should" happen and what "actually" happens varies. And that's also why casinos get sued.

Quote: ZenKinG

Basically you just told me they are allowed to view my private information on my phone and to you thats not the equivalent of 'taking of information'? Wow. Good luck defending that position in court. Jury would laugh you and MGM out of the building.

Quote: AxelWolf

"video poker hand analyzer" while playing VP in a casino, assuming the game is -EV, would be perfectly legal, since you don't have an advantage."

I'm not sure about that. What if the hand has the potential to be + or - EV depending on how its played? You would be gaining an advantage on that hand while using a hand analyzer.

Quote: DRich

That is definitely not true. Having an advantage does not necessarily mean a "positive" advantage. Using a device to assist you can be considered an advantage.

Quote: WangSanJose

Using equipment in casino advantage play is a felony, but how about smartphones?
For example, my friend sets his iPhone in vibration mode and kept in his pocket without looking or touching it while sitting at a table. I text him while standing to signal him the actions.
Another example would be texting to call in(vibration) BP.
Even the casino personnel found out I'm texting, do they have the right to look our phones and assert we're cheating?

Quote: RS

Quote: ThatDonGuy

In Nevada, if you are doing something that would be illegal if you were making the bets yourself, then it is just as illegal for you to do it and then signal someone else. To quote the forum's old friend, NRS 465.075:

Quote: Nevada Revised Statutes, section 465.075

It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:
1.  Projects the outcome of the game;
2.  Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;
3.  Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4.  Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission.

I find this stuff interesting, but I think I disagree with your interpretation of the quoted statute(s?).

"It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:"

Basically means:

"It's illegal to use a device that is made to gain an advantage in a casino."

Show Spoiler

I used bold, italics, and underline to show which is which.

The phone is not "made, programmed, set up....etc." to gain an advantage. It is simply used as a form of communication. Using a cell phone to tell someone "the count is hot, wong into this table // the RC is +7 ... etc." is the exact same as telling the person that out loud (audibly) the count is hot // wong this table // RC is +7.

Now if you're using an app to add and subtract, tell you the RC, TC, advantage, etc. then that's a different ball game because the device is used to gain an advantage. Whereas with simply texting/calling someone, you are communicating with that person something that can also be legally communicated orally. (Not that the casino would be okay with you saying out loud "The count is +12, bet the farm everyone!" but that is still perfectly legal, is it not?) The statute says nothing about communication.

Texting or calling someone clearly doesn't violate #1-4, whereas having a specific card-counting app/device would violate (at least) one of the #1-4.

Something (IMO) people misinterpret about this statute is that ALL DEVICES are illegal. The statute doesn't say that. It says a device is illegal if it is used to gain an advantage. According to this, using an app like "video poker hand analyzer" while playing VP in a casino, assuming the game is -EV, would be perfectly legal, since you don't have an advantage.

Quote: DRich

This has been to court many times and once again you are wrong. If you are using your phone in a public place anyone can legally look over your shoulder and read the contents. It is your responsibility to protect it. Many A.Ps.will only surf or text from the restroom where you are assured there will be no cameras.

Quote: Zcore13

I'm not biased. I just know what the laws are. You just speak from misinformation, paranoia and emotional distress.

Odds are you won't even be in Las Vegas a year from now. It's obviously not for you, although I do love small gsmblers/"AP's" like you. Very entertaining, both in the casino and here.


ZCore13

Quote: ZenKinG

Ahh. Casinos are now public places when it comes to stealing your information, storing it in a database, distributing it to other casinos, and prying on your phone. But when it comes to backing you off, its a private business. You see the problem there. Nice contradiction.

Quote: ZenKinG

Yeah you know the laws alright. Just like your 'checks play' information. Let me know when they call out 'checks play' on roulette and get back to me. Also let me know why so many other casinos call 'checks play' on bets under 100 when they make a huge jump in their bets when you claim 'checks play' is only for 100 or higher.

Ill wait.

Quote: Mission146

You’ve already been informed that some houses have a lower threshold than $100 for calling it out.

In Roulette, chips have a value that is decided by the person who buys-in, which is done to eliminate the possibility of past-posting or moves such as, “The Savannah,” which you’re welcome to look up for yourself. There’s no reason to call out, “Checks Play,” (though some casinos might still) because the value of each chip is fixed by the bettor.

You’ve also been informed that, “Checks Play,” has been called on games other than Blackjack. I have limited experience playing Table Games and I have seen it done on non-Blackjack card games. I’ve always thought that it was not only to alert the pit supervisor, but also to make clear that the chip(s) is being played and not being used to color down because otherwise someone might take a shot and say they just meant to get change. Apparently, my assumption is incorrect.

Quote: Mission146

That wouldn’t even matter.

First, accept that no establishment needs your express consent to film you when you are on privately owned property, unless it is an area (such as a restroom) with a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Anyway, you’re conflating how DRich is using the word public. The establishment itself is private, but it’s a public area within the business that has no expectation of privacy.

Because they can record you, with or without your consent (as the property owners) anything they can see on that recording is fair game, provided it violates no other laws. For example, they couldn’t get your social security number and then apply for credit cards in your name because that would be identity theft.

In what you’re discussing, I fail to see how calling you by your name because they saw it on your phone would violate any laws. If you can find that they used information they gathered by way of recording unlawfully, then you might have something. Merely seeing something in a recording where you have no reasonable expectation of privacy is not unlawful at all.

Quote: ZenKinG

Nope you guys are contradicting yourself. Zcore specifically said it was for 100 and higher and now you guys are backtracking saying it depends on the house lol. Go ahead and tell me why they dont call out checks play on roulette then? Face it, checks play is a heat signal to alert the drone idiot pit boss to catch those pesky counters after a large jump in their bets. Thats why youll never see it called on roulette and thats why sweat shops call it even if its under 100 after a large jump in your bet

Quote: ZenKinG

Nice. Private property that is also public property? Interesting. Makes great sense. You can only be one or the other. The way the casino is stealing our information and databasing us and distributing our photo which can include sensitive info such as your drivers license has nothing to do with it being simply in a 'public' area. A 'public area' doesnt give a private business the right to distribute sensitive information such as government id unless they are a govt agency(public business), which they are not. Being in a 'public area' is much different than being a 'public business'.

Im the worst thing that will happen to Vegas since Ken Uston. Ill finish what he started decades ago.

Quote: Mission146

I’m not contradicting anyone because I’m only speaking from my opinion, experience and what I have read. I read Zcore under the assumption that he’s speaking for his casino and any other that he may have worked at. Now, I personally know his name, title and casino...so I can tell you he definitely knows how at least one casino works in that regard. I assume he’s being upfront as to why they do it, but whether or not you want to believe him is up to you.

I’ve alreadt stated my opinion why they don’t in Roulette. I actually did it in the very post you quoted, which as much as tells me that you didn’t read my post prior to responding. Not entirely surprised.

I’ve seen checks play called on the first hand of a shoe before, so I’d love to know what the person was counting, there. Again, that’s why I’ve always assumed it was so a person couldn’t argue that they were just getting change. It’s either, “Checks Play,” or, “Check Change,” in my experience...then the boss/supervisor acknowledges it. Also, in my experience, it has not been limited to Blackjack...though there are other beatable table games for reasons besides counting.

I’ve also heard it called on Craps the first few times someone plays Black. You can’t count on Craps.

Quote: ZenKinG

Yeah other tables games are beatable but not straight up and you need hole card exposure, etc.

Ive never heard it one time at any other table game. If you claim youve heard it, thats the exception not the rule. Go ahead and answer me this then. Why is blackjack the only game where you hear it more often than every other game. Hmmm. Things surely dont add up

Quote: Mission146

1. How often do you play other games?
2. Many casinos I have seen, and those I go to most regularly, seem to have more BJ tables (both total and open at any given time) than they do all other Table Games, combined.
3. Because #2, those casinos also tend to have more BJ players than players of all other games, combined.
4. Because #2 and #3, there would theoretically (all else equal) be more opportunities for it to be called on BJ, because there are more total players.
5. In my admittedly limited experience, it seems that high bets come at a greater frequency on BJ and Craps than any other game, with BJ edging out Craps. Also, many more Blackjack players. I’ve never seen Black action at MS or LiR because that’s more than the Max Bet even is at some casinos. If that’s more than the Max Bet is, and the threshold for that casino is also $100, there is literally no opportunity to ever call it out.
6. I have seen Black Action on 3CP before, though, and they’ve called it out. I’ve also seen it on another non-BJ game besides Craps, but can’t remember what specific game.

Quote: ZenKinG

They probably call it on 3cardpoker because its so easy to holecard and pit bosses know this and thus makes it a 'vulnerable' game that needs to be 'monitored'

Your theories are wrong. Ill walk into any vegas casino right now and bet $15 on any other table game besides blackjack and then jump my bet to 150 or 2x150 or simply play at 100 or higher and checks play wont be called. If i go to blackjack and do it, watch the fireworks go off

Quote: Mission146

Well, if you’re willing to admit they may well do it on 3CP, then you’re admitting that it may not only be BJ.

I wouldn’t bet you with respect to a Vegas casino, because I don’t know the tables of any one casino out there well enough. There are casinos, at least one, where I’d bet you $1,000 than any Black Action gets you a, “Checks Play,” regardless of whether you’re jumping your bet or it is your first bet...but it’s not in Vegas.

The experience I speak to is not a Vegas casino, because even in Vegas, I wouldn’t have been paying attention for any of that.

Quote: ZenKinG

Black action on what? Blackjack or any other table game? First hand of blackjack still validates my point cause someone can be shuffle tracking. The point i make is its simply on blackjack

Quote: Mission146

Other games too, 3CP and Craps included, as previously stated. Any Black for anything at that casino is always, “Checks Play,” or, “Check Change,” even if the Check couldn’t play because it’d be more than the Max Bet.

Quote: ZenKinG

Well ive never heard it anywhere else. If you heard it on other tables its the exception not the rule. And on blackjack you hear it repeatedly.

Quote: AxelWolf

FYI You can use regular chips on a roulette table.

Quote:

I have not noticed it (checks play) as much on many other table games.

Can we all agree that checks play is also used as a part of their strategy to watch for counters and it's probably done more on BJ than most other games for that reason?

Quote:

I just ask an experience former dealer who had been dealing for many years. Here is what they said," To alert the floor person a player just sat down playing higher limit chips or usually made a big increase in their bets and they are possibly card counting. I will ask more from time to time but I have a feeling card counting will often come up as part of the reasons they do this.

Don't we have some crap dealers around here?

Quote: AxelWolf

FYI You can use regular chips on a roulette table.

I have not noticed it (checks play) as much on many other table games.

Can we all agree that checks play is also used as a part of their strategy to watch for counters and it's probably done more on BJ than most other games for that reason?

I just ask an experience former dealer who had been dealing for many years. Here is what they said," To alert the floor person a player just sat down playing higher limit chips or usually made a big increase in their bets and they are possibly card counting. I will ask more from time to time but I have a feeling card counting will often come up as part of the reasons they do this.

Don't we have some crap dealers around here?

Quote: Zcore13

Supervisor at a specific threshold to let them know the player can now start causing some damage, counting or not.


ZCore13

Quote: AxelWolf

For the record, I think there are multiple reasons they do this(it's rarely done so they can give you a comp.) To say counting is the only reason they do this is very silly of anyone. I just think its used on BJ more than any other game(at least here in NV) because of card counters.

Quote: AxelWolf

As usual, ZK is stubborn with his arguments(right or wrong) I think he knows it, and I think he knows it's NOT THE ONLY REASON they do it.

Quote: AxelWolf

Can you explain why they are less likely do it on other games?

Quote: AxelWolf

Unless it's a sweat shop, dealers don't care if players jump their bets."

Apparently, you haven't meet some old school, female Asian dealers.

Quote: DRich

That is definitely not true. Having an advantage does not necessarily mean a "positive" advantage. Using a device to assist you can be considered an advantage.

Quote: GlenG

Its pretty rare for a dealer to say Cheques Play on roulette. If they are betting black it's "Black Action" (or whatever denom over 100)

I call Cheques play when an abnormal or significantly larger bet is made than their normal betting. In high limit games it's important for the floor to know, but its sposto be said amung all table games.

Quote: Zcore13

So if their normal bet is $5, but they abnormally go to $50 you call out chewes play?


ZCore13

Quote: GlenG

Yup, 5 to 50 is a significant change in bet. I try to be consistant with it. Sometimes most dealers are not.

Quote: ZenKinG

Shhh, no facts belong in this thread.

Zenking right again

Quote: Zcore13

Ask your friend if be would call out cheques play on a $5 to $50 jump, 10× base bet. 99% of places won't. Then ask him if he would call it out on a $50 to $100 jump, just 2× base bet. He'll say yes.

Unless it's a sweat shop, dealers don't care if players jump their bets. It's. not their job. There job is to alert the Supervisor at a specific threshold to let them know the player can now start causing some damage, counting or not.


ZCore13