ending edge sorting

Not that I want to pee on the cornflakes of any of the AP's, but good god, are the folks in charge of game security for the casinos stupid?

I'm talking about edge sorting, which involves sharp-eyed players taking advantage of discernible differences in the way the pattern is printed on playing cards.

Why not use cards with nothing along the edges: either solid colors, or solid colors with a small logo or small design in the center?

Or insist that card manufacturers modify their production technique such that no variation in cards result.

Seems like a no-brainer.

Poor manufacturing quality control.
They need to hire an edge shorter in the QC dept
Don't let this crap go out till they fix the production process.

The last would be difficult. Cards are printed in sheets which are then cut. I dont know of any cutting machine that would be able to align every cut from loaded sheets 100% perfect every time

The kinds of small "registration" errors that you refer to also occur in stamps, comic books, dollar bills (currency) and almost anything that is mass printed.

Precision in printing and manufacturing is possible (think of integrated circuits), however precision = money.

Do you know anything about the engineering science of manufacturing systems? about high-speed printing processes? When something seems like a no-brainer to you, it may be because you don't understand the subject.

Borderless cards can still be vulnerable.

I also don’t believe that every deck of vulnerable designs are sortable.

I have a feeling there aren’t a huge amount of edge sorting opportunities anymore, but I could be 100% wrong.

Quote: gamerfreak

Borderless cards can still be vulnerable.

I also don’t believe that every deck of vulnerable designs are sortable.

I have a feeling there aren’t a huge amount of edge sorting opportunities anymore, but I could be 100% wrong.

Never heard of casino's allowing players to "turn" cards until this Ivey/Sun saga. I also asked about this so called "Macau" style of dealing out the four cards face down before wagering is done during my recent trip to Nagaworld(Phnom Penh, Macau copy) and they looked at me like I was an idiot. For what it's worth, they buy their cards in China, not Japan.

Quote: MrV

Why not use cards with nothing along the edges: either solid colors, or solid colors with a small logo or small design in the center?

Or insist that card manufacturers modify their production technique such that no variation in cards result.

Seems like a no-brainer.

More and more casinos are using cards that can't be edge sorted. I think they are a little more expensive.

They don't even have to do that. They just need to turn half of the deck before putting it back in the shuffler.

Quote: MrV

Why not use cards with nothing along the edges: either solid colors, or solid colors with a small logo or small design in the center?

I think a lot of casinos are already doing this -- using those cards with the "faded" white borders. At least, that's what I saw a lot of in Vegas last time I was there

Quote:

are the folks in charge of game security for the casinos stupid?

Maybe some... One time I met a person in charge of casino security (not sure of their position but definitely some kind of manager) and I started asking about some real basic card cheating moves since I was really into magic at the time. They had no idea what I was talking about. This was not in Vegas, though.

The amount of white that is visible along the edge is just as effective as a printed edge. So stopping the printing to the edge doesn't really solve the problem.

Quote: Wizard

More and more casinos are using cards that can't be edge sorted. I think they are a little more expensive.

I am not sure there are ANY types of cards that can't be edge sorted. Every manufacturer and every back design are subject to cards not being cut exactly the same every time. Some are worse than others. If you don't believe me, ask Telliot.

I have several used decks from SamsTown in LV where the back of all the cards is white, except for the SamsClub logo in the center of the card. No white border, no pattern that extends to the end of the card.

How can such a deck be "edge-sorted" when there is no edge?

Well if anybody did know how,I would hope they would have sense enough to not post it on a public forum.

Quote: racquet

I have several used decks from SamsTown in LV where the back of all the cards is white, except for the SamsClub logo in the center of the card. No white border, no pattern that extends to the end of the card.

How can such a deck be "edge-sorted" when there is no edge?

I had one from Main Street Station. All white except the red logo.

Quote: racquet

I have several used decks from SamsTown in LV where the back of all the cards is white, except for the SamsClub logo in the center of the card. No white border, no pattern that extends to the end of the card.

How can such a deck be "edge-sorted" when there is no edge?

Logo position. Size of borders.

Quote: gamerfreak

Logo position. Size of borders.

Are you saying that you can place bets After the cards are dealt face down? That would be the only advantage of edge sorting.
I was speaking to a pit boss here and she just laughed , she said nothing matters as the casino is a machine and will grind down any method of winning in the long run. She said people make mistakes due to concentration/ lack of, booze drugs and patience , in either order. They are happy that you (think )you can beat them for an hour, a day , a week because they will get it all back and then plus some with interest .
Oh by the way, here , no cards are dealt until all wagers are placed and the dealer says No more bets. Nullifying a perceived advantage as your wager is locked in. Baccarat, blackjack, roulette etc. no more bets.
Re manufacturing precision for public use , it’s not as precise as you are led to believe, before we get sideways here exclude nasa ,medical ,and other high Tec facilities not open to joe average, not talking re circuit board etc . A simple example take 5 notes of the same denomination stack them , put two corners together ie short left and long bottom edge you will see they are not the same size , close but not same. Now try that with plastic money, now get two playing cards put them face to face you will notice they are out of square. Usually.
Money is the most used objects in public domain and it’s not precise in shape nor weight, nor thickness ie use a micrometer. My ex industry for way luv you long time.
Kind regards

Quote: beachmonkey

Are you saying that you can place bets After the cards are dealt face down?

Yes.

Quote: beachmonkey

I was speaking to a pit boss here and she just laughed , she said nothing matters as the casino is a machine and will grind down any method of winning in the long run. She said people make mistakes due to concentration/ lack of, booze drugs and patience , in either order. They are happy that you (think )you can beat them for an hour, a day , a week because they will get it all back and then plus some with interest .

That's weird, pit bosses always give me an advantage play when I ask ;)

Quote: gamerfreak

Yes.


That's weird, pit bosses always give me an advantage play when I ask ;)

Wow I want to come to your town casino. Shoot I cannot make it there this week how bout you rip the bag for us and take all that cash. Wow. Good luck. You really live in the land of milk and honey.
Kind regards
Merry Christmas
P. s what’s advantage play mean?! if you don’t mind telling me ,is it like getting a complimentary points or hotel room? Cheers

Quote: beachmonkey

Are you saying that you can place bets After the cards are dealt face down? That would be the only advantage of edge sorting.

You could still use the information for playing (or insurance) decisions.

Why is there an edge? Cards have to be complicated as a defense against counterfeited cards entering the deck.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Why is there an edge? Cards have to be complicated as a defense against counterfeited cards entering the deck.

That's the point of the casino logo. And even so, that could be counterfeited also.

I personally don't believe that edge sorting is the problem that the game protection people are making it out to be. But naturally, they have a product to sell to casinos. So why not make them think it is? Just look at the hoops Phil Ivey had to go though to get those "perfect conditions."

Ivey got special conditions, yes, but it doesn't mean that there aren't certain vulnerabilities out there that can make a huge play for a well-bankrolled AP.

I had said more, but deleted that post by request.

Quote: Mission146

Ivey got special conditions, yes, but it doesn't mean that there aren't certain vulnerabilities out there that can make a huge play for a well-bankrolled AP.

I had said more, but deleted that post by request.

I'm sure there are, but they're not as many or easy as the "protection racket" wants they casinos to think they are. It's just not happening like they're making it out to be.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I'm sure there are, but they're not as many or easy as the "protection racket" wants they casinos to think they are. It's just not happening like they're making it out to be.

I both agree and disagree with this statement.

I agree that it's not nearly as easy as the protection racket makes it out to be.

I disagree to the extent that a juicy opportunity can result in a table getting absolutely crushed for a month compared to its usual hold.

Quote: Mission146

I disagree to the extent that a juicy opportunity can result in a table getting absolutely crushed for a month compared to its usual hold.

Maybe I worded it wrong. I agree it can be crushed under the right conditions. I disagree that those conditions are and were as prevalent as they're made out to be.

Quote: Mission146

I both agree and disagree with this statement.

I agree that it's not nearly as easy as the protection racket makes it out to be.

I disagree to the extent that a juicy opportunity can result in a table getting absolutely crushed for a month compared to its usual hold.

I have the feeling that like most other "methods" of advantage play, HCing, counting, getting creative with promotions....the actual methodology is very easy to explain and understand on paper, but actually placing yourself in a casino where you can do it on a regular basis & make money is an entirely different animal.

Counting down a deck of cards at home is something most people could learn in a few hours. Very easy to explain and do in a controlled environment. Doing it and doing it well at a live game takes a bit more time, but certainly a learnable/teachable skill. Great, so you can count cards. Now what? You need a large enough to not get ruined. You need to scout casinos for good rules and good penetration. You need to be able to play and spread your bet at those casino's while avoiding heat. You need to get enough hours in to overcome variance. There's no other word for it than work, lots of hours of work. And there's nothing wrong with that, I'm sure a lot of people enjoy the process.

Similarly, I have a bunch of casino decks with a variety of designs. On a few with a super bad pattern, I can isolate the value of that card to 2-3 different groups nearly 100% of the time. BUT...my understanding is that I could have just gotten very adept and sorting this particular deck. Not every deck from this manufacturer may have the same defect. Then, not only would I need to scout casinos with designs/cards/games/dealing procedures that would allow for information to be inferred from the back of a card, I'd need to create the proper strategy to properly use that information, and know that I'm getting an edge.

Obviously if anyone is actually successful at this, they aren't going to comment on it. But I think it's a lot harder in practice than it sounds in theory. I agree that there's writers/consultants (....maybe even retired one's) who create more of a job for themselves by over-stating these risks, so I'm skeptical that there are many AP's regularly finding value with edge sorting, but I could be 100% wrong.