Shuffle master truth solved
Quote: Zcore13So the factory is in on it now? But no $15 an hour employee has ever said anything?
ZCore13
Read my 2nd paragraph because I think you replied while I was still writing/editing. When I think about the whole thing logically, I dont actually think a casino could be cheating, at least not through adding or missing cards in the actual set of cards, but it did take me a while to actually form every scenario in my head. Finding out a while ago that the pit bosses 'count the cards down' even though they dont see the actual cards, it still is somewhat of a safeguard because the only way to cheat then would be replacing 10s and aces with 4s and 5s to keep the total number of cards at 312 or 416, but that would be too high risk unless they could program the ASM to not identify missing cards and keep more of 6 or 8 of the same suit to come out, which seems to be way too much work and high risk, so not really plausible, especially if the ASMs have to pass the compliance department where supposedly they inspect these machines to be fully operational by industry standards or whatever.
Quote: FCBLComishI was going to come on here and ask the OP how the shuffler knows how many people are playing, and when the "last" packet of cards should come out, but then I figured I would just be wasting internet ink.
backwards induction
Quote: heatmapbackwards induction
Yeah, that probably is the problem here. Coughing with the blunt still in your mouth.
:)
Quote: KevinAAThe biggest problem with ASM is they break down all the time. The second biggest problem with ASM is that players don't trust them. It's just stupid, because it doesn't take that long to do a hand shuffle.
this exact scenario happened to me last week. the dealer was new, looked at the pit manager and asked "I gotta shuffle all the decks?"
i walked away for a good half hour and watched the table. it was tough watching this girl struggle to shuffle.
my prediction is that at one point, shuffling wont be a required skill, and when a machine breaks down, its going to cost alot more than what it used to in terms of down time because of how profitable the time was when whoever has the shufflers use them
Given what Volkswagen was able to pull off (manipulate computers to give up false emission results when being tested) I think the gaming industry could pull off a similar ploy using its advanced shufflers. Of course these results would be far more dramatic in games where card movements were fixed.
Quote: boymimboWhen I think about the ability to collude so that only a few people know when it comes to two schemes: a beast mode or card replacement certainly the beast mode would be more palatable as it could be an arrangement between casino execs and a couple of well bribed engineers.
Given what Volkswagen was able to pull off (manipulate computers to give up false emission results when being tested) I think the gaming industry could pull off a similar ploy using its advanced shufflers. Of course these results would be far more dramatic in games where card movements were fixed.
Its happening right now as we speak. Just go to harrahs and try to beat their blackjack games straight counting. I dont know of one counter that has ever won long term counting at harrahs that ive talked to. Not to mention if they could beat me of all people for close to 20k after 100+ hours, it says a lot as well. Theyre the ONE property i never could beat or even come close to beating. Evil empire for a reason.
Yes, they are dealing blackjack toQuote: ZenKinGIts happening right now as we speak.
players of various skill and technique levels. Its kind of hard to avoid the evil empire
since they own so many places but that does not affect the card order.
Quote: ZenKinGIts happening right now as we speak. Just go to harrahs and try to beat their blackjack games straight counting. I dont know of one counter that has ever won long term counting at harrahs that ive talked to. Not to mention if they could beat me of all people for close to 20k after 100+ hours, it says a lot as well. Theyre the ONE property i never could beat or even come close to beating. Evil empire for a reason.
So here are the choices:
1) There’s a conspiracy at harrahs
2) You’re bad at card counting
I’ll have to pick which one makes the most sense I guess...
Quote: FinsRuleSo here are the choices:
1) There’s a conspiracy at harrahs
2) You’re bad at card counting
I’ll have to pick which one makes the most sense I guess...
What about the part where Ive made 60k after 1250 hours? Tell me what the ev is for 2x200 and let me know if im at ev or not and if im a bad counter?
Quote: FinsRuleIn all seriousness, has anyone on this forum seen you play? Is it verified that you are good at counting, or could that all be made up?
Anyone is welcome to come see me play. I got nothing to hide or time to waste fabricating a story for years on a forum. Do you want to see my NJ ID as well as my OSN profile?
Quote: ZenKinGAnyone is welcome to come see me play. I got nothing to hide or time to waste fabricating a story for years on a forum. Do you want to see my NJ ID as well as my OSN profile?
I'd love to see your OSN profile. You should get t-shirts made up with it. I'd buy one.
Quote: FinsRuleSo here are the choices:
1) There’s a conspiracy at harrahs
2) You’re bad at card counting
I’ll have to pick which one makes the most sense I guess...
When I hear hoof beats, I always think Zebras......
So there's this blackjack game, that's dealt from a shoe, and I can wong in and out with NO PROBLEMS whenever I want. I was wonging in on TC +2 and playing 3 hands of $100. I played for approximately 8 hours and ran MORE THAN 3SD down.
The shoe in question knows the order of the cards. This is proven 100% because the dealers known how many cards to give themselves when pulling for their hand. This is not a "normal" blackjack table, but a "stadium" type game. The dealer hits the screen when they go to pull, and the screen tells them how many cards. One fast dealer we had would ripe out 3-4 cards without even looking at them because that's what the screen told her to do.
So the ASM that shuffled the cards actually knows the order, because the cards are then simply picked up, cut, and put in to a covered shoe to be dealt out. The shoe reminds me of a Bac shoe in that it scans when the cards are pulled and the digital displays are updated with the cards (not from the scan though, from the predetermined shuffle).
In my SHORT EXPERIENCE (8 hours is not a massive sampling size) I did notice some repeating patterns... clumps of aces without faces would commonly come out together. Other times clumps of faces would come out and there would be a lot of pushing with the dealer, along with killing of the count.
Conclusion
I'm actually quite skeptical. It really wouldn't be that hard for them to clump aces together and/or faces given that it is 110% proven the ASM shuffling the cards knows the resulting order of the cards (we can prove this through the computer screen the dealers see - no we can't see the cards but through it telling them how many cards to pull, etc). I actually plan on running more hands with a VERY small spread (relational though - wong in TC +2 3x$5) and seeing how it goes. If I run 3SD+ down again, I'm going to be officially convinced that it is in fact rigged. If I suddenly run great, then perhaps I simply had a VERY unlikely poor run of cards.
Quote: RomesSo in all likely-hood of giving ZK and others more to believe, I have my own personal experience with something that doesn't sit right with me...
So there's this blackjack game, that's dealt from a shoe, and I can wong in and out with NO PROBLEMS whenever I want. I was wonging in on TC +2 and playing 3 hands of $100. I played for approximately 8 hours and ran MORE THAN 3SD down.
The shoe in question knows the order of the cards. This is proven 100% because the dealers known how many cards to give themselves when pulling for their hand. This is not a "normal" blackjack table, but a "stadium" type game. The dealer hits the screen when they go to pull, and the screen tells them how many cards. One fast dealer we had would ripe out 3-4 cards without even looking at them because that's what the screen told her to do.
So the ASM that shuffled the cards actually knows the order, because the cards are then simply picked up, cut, and put in to a covered shoe to be dealt out. The shoe reminds me of a Bac shoe in that it scans when the cards are pulled and the digital displays are updated with the cards (not from the scan though, from the predetermined shuffle).
In my SHORT EXPERIENCE (8 hours is not a massive sampling size) I did notice some repeating patterns... clumps of aces without faces would commonly come out together. Other times clumps of faces would come out and there would be a lot of pushing with the dealer, along with killing of the count.
Conclusion
I'm actually quite skeptical. It really wouldn't be that hard for them to clump aces together and/or faces given that it is 110% proven the ASM shuffling the cards knows the resulting order of the cards (we can prove this through the computer screen the dealers see - no we can't see the cards but through it telling them how many cards to pull, etc). I actually plan on running more hands with a VERY small spread (relational though - wong in TC +2 3x$5) and seeing how it goes. If I run 3SD+ down again, I'm going to be officially convinced that it is in fact rigged. If I suddenly run great, then perhaps I simply had a VERY unlikely poor run of cards.
Lol. Based on one 8 hour session. Why would you just not wait so that you don't have to come back here looking silly?
ZCore13
Quote: MintyRegardless of if it was rigged or not that would make me uncomfortable. Especially with those results!
Quote: heatmap"Card shuffling and dealing apparatus"
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5431399A/en
Look at all the companies who cite this patent, and ask yourself how many people use this for the game bridge in any casino? (i mean i have no knowledge of bridge in a casino?)
1. It may be the desire of the participants in a bridge session to constrain the random distribution of cards. For example, they may wish to primarily produce hands that will produce game bids, or hands that favor no-trump bidding, or hands that have unusual distributions, etc. Or they might wish to establish a constraint that both pairs in the game will, over the course of the session, receive approximately the same number of "high cards".
f) to provide for operation in a variety of different modalities (e.g., to produce random distributions, or distributions subject to certain constraints, or specific distributions).
SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION
The present invention provides a means for (a) shuffling and distributing cards in a random manner, or (b) distributing cards in a predetermined manner. The device is intended to operate with ordinary "bridge-size" cards. In addition to a deck of cards, the system will have a small number of cards called "program" cards. While the same size as ordinary playing cards, these cards are specially encoded so as to indicate to the device in what modality it should operate. For example, one such program card could be an instruction to the device to randomly distribute a deck of cards (hereinafter referred to as the "random" distribution modality). The user would insert into the device an unordered deck of cards with this program card at the bottom. The device would first read the program card; generate internally a random distribution for the hands; and then cause the deck of cards to be distributed appropriately to reflect the desired distribution.
As another example, another program card might be an instruction to generally generate "gamegoing" hands (these are hands where the distribution of high cards is primarily distributed to one pair rather than another, thus allowing them to win most of the tricks). As before, the user would put this program card at the bottom of the deck. The device would read the program card; then generate internally a quasi-random distribution subject to the constraint that the high cards be appropriately allocated to one of the two pairs; and then distribute the cards. We note that the program card need not be passed through the machine each time a new distribution of cards is desired; the modality of the prior distribution will be continued unless overridden by a subsequent program card. (This modality is referred to hereafter as the "restricted" distribution modality).
In addition to distribution along these lines (random or restricted), the other modality can be called predetermined In this case an exact distribution is desired. A program card can be prepared that indicates how every card in a particular hand is to be distributed. That card is placed at the bottom of the deck; the device reads it and then uses that information to distribute the balance of the cards. A variant of this modality is the duplicate bridge game where there would a shuffling/distribution device at each table. In this case it is (generally) not important for particular distributions to be created, but it is important that the totality of hands for the session be identical whenever played (the table at which hands are played, and the pairs playing them will vary). This could be accomplished by "seeding" the random generator for each device to the same value; then whatever hands were generated to constitute the hands for the session would be the same from table to table. Seeding could proceed by following a "seeding" program card with a randomly mixed set (or subset) of playing cards; the sequence of those cards would establish an initial value for the random generation function. After being read by one device, the seeding program card and randomly mixed set of playing cards could be moved to another machine, and the process repeated there. Alternatively, the removable memory means in the device could be programmed with the desired distributions prior to the start of the session.
"After the system determines a desired distribution the system operates to distribute the cards. Two embodiments of the current invention are described herein: (a) the four-way system, and (b) the lateral system.
The game of contract bridge has been used throughout this description to illustrate the advantages and operation of this invention; however this is not intended to limit the application of the invention to that game. The invention could be used in any game where automatic dealing was desired, and particularly when the desired distribution of cards was less than fully random."
Quote: heatmapThe game of contract bridge has been used throughout this description to illustrate the advantages and operation of this invention; however this is not intended to limit the application of the invention to that game. The invention could be used in any game where automatic dealing was desired, and particularly when the desired distribution of cards was less than fully random."
I think I am in a unique position as someone who both directs at a contract bridge club and am in the casino business in table games.
The 2 machines are completely different.
The bridge machine (Called Dealer4 if you want to look it up www.dealer4.com ) does not shuffle at all. One deck is placed in the machine and it divides the cards up in a known sequence that has been pre-programmed. Cameras read each card as it is dealt. There are 4 slots where cards can fall, and each slot will get dealt exactly 13 cards. There are several software packages that have large numbers of random deals that can be used, or the machine can be asked to deal any particular sequence. These machines run about $4000 retail.
The Shufflers used in casinos are made by Shuffle Master (almost 100%, but there are other companies emerging into the market). These do not have the capability to do anything other than shuffle, or put the cards back into new deck order. The cameras only read the cards as they are being delivered, not as or before they are being shuffled. The machines are certified by GLI (Gaming Labs International ( gaminglabs.com ).
Not the same animal, not even the same family.
Quote: FCBLComishThe Shufflers used in casinos are made by Shuffle Master (almost 100%, but there are other companies emerging into the market). These do not have the capability to do anything other than shuffle, or put the cards back into new deck order. The cameras only read the cards as they are being delivered, not as or before they are being shuffled. The machines are certified by GLI (Gaming Labs International ( gaminglabs.com ).
Not the same animal, not even the same family.
How could they only read the cards as they are being delivered if they can put the cards back into new deck order?
http://dealer4.com/Manuals/Dealer4%20Software%20User%20Manual%201v4.pdf
Edit:
Hello RNG used by said shuffler
https://sater.home.xs4all.nl/doc.html
Quote: gamerfreakHow could they only read the cards as they are being delivered if they can put the cards back into new deck order?
They deliver the cards past the camera, and they goes back into the wheel. They are then spit out in packets of 2-4 cards in new deck order.
It is very obvious when this mode is engaged. All the lights flash, red and green, and there is a lot more noise than a normal shuffle. It also takes about 3-4 times as long as a normal shuffle.
Quote: heatmapHello Software User Manual
http://dealer4.com/Manuals/Dealer4%20Software%20User%20Manual%201v4.pdf
Edit:
Hello RNG used by said shuffler
https://sater.home.xs4all.nl/doc.html
Very interesting. The degree of randomness and security is way less important for contract bridge than it is for a casino operation.
Quote: FCBLComishVery interesting. The degree of randomness and security is way less important for contract bridge than it is for a casino operation.
The website claims the operator is considered the enemy and shouldn’t have any control over the ability to reproduce specific hands based on the initial seed. But then goes on to say the rng has two modes one of which allows you to tap into the rng and program the distribution. Whether they have that programmed into the shuffler is not clear as it’s only described on the website of the rng maker
Quote: FCBLComishVery interesting. The degree of randomness and security is way less important for contract bridge than it is for a casino operation.
You've never played in a Sectional, then...lol.
To answer the specific question about SHFL sort order:
1. It can only decide on card order when a key is inserted and physically turned to that setting.
2. When in that mode, it can only sort into new card order. It doesn't have the software to evaluate cards into a sort order that is advantageous to the dealer or a particular player.
3. It does other weird things to alert it's in that mode, not dealing mode.
4. When it's in sort mode, it only spits out the entire deck when it's done. Most (but not all) games dealt from it, deal hand packets, as many as needed, then the rest of the deck is burnt.
I'm not saying that it is happening nor do I expect that people would be able to gather enough evidence to prove it. I also know that I am feeding those people who believe that the casinos are cheating when they don't need to. All I am saying that it is possible and given the greed of casinos to stay solvent it wouldn't surprise me that they would try to change a .6% game to a 2-3% game.
Quote: boymimboAs I stated I believe that if a major company like VLKAY can doctor it's computers to disguise emissions results and fool consumers for years then I don't put it past SHFL to work with casinos to put a machine out there that deals cards in favour of the house with only a few select people knowing about it.
I'm not saying that it is happening nor do I expect that people would be able to gather enough evidence to prove it. I also know that I am feeding those people who believe that the casinos are cheating when they don't need to. All I am saying that it is possible and given the greed of casinos to stay solvent it wouldn't surprise me that they would try to change a .6% game to a 2-3% game.
They can do that legally by changing the rules/payouts. Also, there is no 3rd party inspection and digital signature on emissions equipment like there is on every GLI approved shuffler.
ZCore13
... >3SD bro... >3SD...Quote: Zcore13Based on one 8 hour session. Why would you just not wait so that you don't have to come back here looking silly?
ZCore13
Quote: Romes... >3SD bro... >3SD...
So you had an 11.2% chance of falling at 3SD bro. 11.2% chance.
ZCore13
Quote: mcallister3200Nice math skills zcore. Lol wtf. Why do you come here to look silly?
Until this moment I thought the name was Z-Score. Great moment of irony.
Quote: beachbumbabsYou've never played in a Sectional, then...lol.
To answer the specific question about SHFL sort order:
1. It can only decide on card order when a key is inserted and physically turned to that setting.
2. When in that mode, it can only sort into new card order. It doesn't have the software to evaluate cards into a sort order that is advantageous to the dealer or a particular player.
3. It does other weird things to alert it's in that mode, not dealing mode.
4. When it's in sort mode, it only spits out the entire deck when it's done. Most (but not all) games dealt from it, deal hand packets, as many as needed, then the rest of the deck is burnt.
I have played in many sectionals, regionals, nationals. I am a silver life master. Having said all that, all the master points added together won't get you a happy meal at McDonalds.
Your information on SHFL is correct except for the key part. There is a setting on the touch screen to switch from shuffle to sort. The lights flash brightly enough that I can see it from the other side of the pit. As you said, the cards come out differently than they do on a normal shuffle.
Quote: boymimboAs I stated I believe that if a major company like VLKAY can doctor it's computers to disguise emissions results and fool consumers for years then I don't put it past SHFL to work with casinos to put a machine out there that deals cards in favour of the house with only a few select people knowing about it.
I'm not saying that it is happening nor do I expect that people would be able to gather enough evidence to prove it. I also know that I am feeding those people who believe that the casinos are cheating when they don't need to. All I am saying that it is possible and given the greed of casinos to stay solvent it wouldn't surprise me that they would try to change a .6% game to a 2-3% game.
I am a high enough member of the dark side and have worked in enough properties that if there were something like that, I would be the one who would know about it.
Quote: Zcore13So you had an 11.2% chance of falling at 3SD bro. 11.2% chance.
ZCore13
Now we know for sure that you're a casino drone.
Quote: mcallister3200Nice math skills zcore. Lol wtf. Why do you come here to look silly?
I would say insufficiant data causes these numbers to have non normal distribution. That would be an 11.2% chance if that is the case. However you compute it, 11.2%, 5%, 2%, .5%. Its all easily doable.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I would say insufficiant data causes these numbers to have non normal distribution. That would be an 11.2% chance if that is the case. However you compute it, 11.2%, 5%, 2%, .5%. Its all easily doable.
ZCore13
Wait what????? Rofl
Quote: FCBLComish
The Shufflers used in casinos are made by Shuffle Master (almost 100%, but there are other companies emerging into the market). These do not have the capability to do anything other than shuffle, or put the cards back into new deck order. The cameras only read the cards as they are being delivered, not as or before they are being shuffled. The machines are certified by GLI (Gaming Labs International ( gaminglabs.com ).
In regards to the IDEAL, this is Fake News. I think you think you know more about the shufflers, than you actually do.
Quote: FCBLComishI have played in many sectionals, regionals, nationals. I am a silver life master. Having said all that, all the master points added together won't get you a happy meal at McDonalds.
Your information on SHFL is correct except for the key part. There is a setting on the touch screen to switch from shuffle to sort. The lights flash brightly enough that I can see it from the other side of the pit. As you said, the cards come out differently than they do on a normal shuffle.
Ok, thanks. I was out of date, then. It took the turn of a key a decade or so ago, that the Floor kept out of the machine unless needed for that. I guess they've programmed it since.
Quote: SM777In regards to the IDEAL, this is Fake News. I think you think you know more about the shufflers, than you actually do.
I have 9 iDeals sitting in front of me as we speak.
Quote: FCBLComishI have 9 iDeals sitting in front of me as we speak.
Okay, what does this prove?
You made a statement that was false. Sitting in front of ideals at the casino your employed at doesn't change that.
Quote: SM777Okay, what does this prove?
You made a statement that was false. Sitting in front of ideals at the casino your employed at doesn't change that.
Can shufflers re-arrange cards in a way that is physically indistinguishable from a normal shuffle?
Quote: gamerfreakCan shufflers re-arrange cards in a way that is physically indistinguishable from a normal shuffle?
Have you ever examined a hand shuffles mixture? Except for a small minority of dealers that have a really good shuffle, most have multiple clumps of cards that stay together. It takes a lot of practice, which dealers don't do these days, to shuffle well. I guarantee every Shufflemaster shuffler shuffles as good or better than 99% of hand shuffles.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Have you ever examined a hand shuffles mixture? Except for a small minority of dealers that have a really good shuffle, most have multiple clumps of cards that stay together. It takes a lot of practice, which dealers don't do these days, to shuffle well. I guarantee every Shufflemaster shuffler shuffles as good or better than 99% of hand shuffles.
ZCore13
That’s not at all what I am asking. I wouldn’t expect machines to be worse than hand shuffles.
Quote: gamerfreakCan shufflers re-arrange cards in a way that is physically indistinguishable from a normal shuffle?
Not sure exactly what you're asking.
Quote: SM777Not sure exactly what you're asking.
Whether or not the new deck order function on any shuffler is distinguishable from regular shuffling in any physical way beyond what can be changed in programming (lights, delays, etc).
The odds of what happened to me was < .1%, bro. I've always liked you and your posting, but you're straying into a realm of incorrectness here.Quote: Zcore13So you had an 11.2% chance of falling at 3SD bro. 11.2% chance.
ZCore13
Quote: RomesThe odds of what happened to me was < .1%, bro. I've always liked you and your posting, but you're straying into a realm of incorrectness here.
Romes, you should know that in the short run it's possible to run worse than -3SD. I used to think it was impossible to run worse than -3SD in any term short or long unless theres player error or casino cheating, but I guess its possible once it happened to me multiple times already, but of course dont rule out cheating of course because Im still skeptical an event like that can happen in any term.
Im currently in the middle of a -4SD run in 10 hours. Let that sink in. Coincidentally it happens during the 'HOLIDAYS', which I have never won during a holiday or holiday weekend at any casino in the country, so i might have gotten cheated. What keeps me sane is that ive also had a -4 or -5SD event happen to me back in PA over several hours where I dont think I was cheated, but I just find it funny how I never have a short term WIN sample over +3SD, but ive had several > -3SD. LOSING samples.
#rigged.
Quote: RomesThe odds of what happened to me was < .1%, bro. I've always liked you and your posting, but you're straying into a realm of incorrectness here.
Come on bro, it was just a couple of zeroes off.
Quote: gamerfreakCan shufflers re-arrange cards in a way that is physically indistinguishable from a normal shuffle?
That is like asking whether excel spreadsheets can calculate numbers in a sequence that is non-random.
Shufflers have the technological capability to deal the cards in a pre-determined sequence, if the programming (software) of the shuffler is changed so as to specify the rules for the sequence.
Game integrity depends upon the certification of the software program by GLI, the laboratory that certifies shufflers, and upon whatever mechanisms/controls the state regulatory body puts in place to assure that the shuffler's software is not changed or reprogrammed.
Quote: gordonm888That is like asking whether excel spreadsheets can calculate numbers in a sequence that is non-random.
Shufflers have the technological capability to deal the cards in a pre-determined sequence, if the programming (software) of the shuffler is changed so as to specify the rules for the sequence.
Game integrity depends upon the certification of the software program by GLI, the laboratory that certifies shufflers, and upon whatever mechanisms/controls the state regulatory body puts in place to assure that the shuffler's software is not changed or reprogrammed.
What about the checks and balances for preshuffled non verified cards with no ASM at the table? Who is verifying them?
