Just found out im in OSN
How bad is this going to affect me in vegas now? Im aware Vegas is very active with OSN. I feel like my vegas career is already cut short by about 50%. It looks like the photo was taken from the same place that kicked me out 7 times now. Surprised i havent been trespassed yet. Looks like i been playing in an active OSN store, just my luck huh? F my life
Well at least i now know which hoodie to not wear anymore. This sucks.
ZCore13
But what's your point?
Seriously though, people know people who know people etc..
Next, you're surprised? This is something that seems to come up from the boys over at bjinfo.com... "omg you're losing so much EV by NOT back counting and wonging in and using a higher level count and ...." Yeah, well guess what in my 10 year BJ career I've been given the hard boot only a handful of times. Looks like I'm doing something right, even though I don't have my high level count and I don't hardcore wong in at TC +2 and hardcore wong out at TC 0.
You're attempting to suck up every drop of EV, which isn't bad, that's just your personal choice... and the consequences with that personal choice is often times more heat. It shouldn't be surprising that ONE of the MANY casinos you've played in uses OSN or any other surveillance network.
You're really begging for them to take your picture when you've been booted from there 7 times too. "What do you mean you put me in OSN after you kicked me out 7 times??? I thought 10 times was the minimum for OSN???"
Has ZERO to do with luck and 100% to do with your choices. This is in no way a showstopper to your career, so instead of complaining about "your life, your luck" you can learn from the experience and tailor your game to your more specific needs (re: EV vs longevity).
Quote: ZenKinGNow i heard this isn't really the career killer that many people think, but im pretty mad that im actually in it.
How bad is this going to affect me in vegas now? Im aware Vegas is very active with OSN. I feel like my vegas career is already cut short by about 50%. It looks like the photo was taken from the same place that kicked me out 7 times now. Surprised i havent been trespassed yet. Looks like i been playing in an active OSN store, just my luck huh? F my life
Well at least i now know which hoodie to not wear anymore. This sucks.
I think that's basically it. They look up every unrated player with sophisticated facial recognition. The second you raise your bet and the phone starts ringing, it's probably surveillance alerting the pit. I'd probably go back to the place you got thrown out of 7 times already and demand to speak to the manager and ask him to remove you.
Quote: tongniI think that's basically it. They look up every unrated player with sophisticated facial recognition. The second you raise your bet and the phone starts ringing, it's probably surveillance alerting the pit. I'd probably go back to the place you got thrown out of 7 times already and demand to speak to the manager and ask him to remove you.
What would be the purpose of that? Doubtful the casino will listen. GM: oh yeah we accidentally booted u 7 times. Our mistake. We will take u out of OSN right away. Yeah fat chance
Quote: mcallister3200There is an incredible amount of misinformation and guilt by association in that database, much of the information collected illegally.. Never mind the mere existence of it as currently operated is a violation of fair trade laws via business collusion and arguably price fixing.
What bothers me is that you cannot access it to dispute any information. I thought there was a lawsuit brought against some company (not OSN) complaining about that very fact. I'd deny everything in there written about me. Not to mention these casinos, illegally in my book, put your picture on the internet. I wonder if a class action suit was brought against these databases what would be the outcome.
Quote: mcallister3200I have little hope of the cretins being held responsible for it. As soon as AP's start paying more taxes than casinos they'd be held responsible for their actions...always about the money.
I can understand alerts being sent to properties within the same ownership. What I can't fathom, is why one group would help its competition. If anything, I'd encourage the AP threats to target my competition!
Quote: IbeatyouracesI can understand alerts being sent to properties within the same ownership. What I can't fathom, is why one group would help its competition. If anything, I'd encourage the AP threats to target my competition!
"Sorry, your game is too strong for us and can't play blackjack here anymore. By the way, store down the road has a 6 deck 85% pen LS h17 RSA and they don't have a clue. Once you're up $50k they'll kick you out but don't know about card counting. Once you beat them up, call me and I'll send you to some other good games in the area." -how every back off should be
Quote: mcallister3200There is an incredible amount of misinformation and guilt by association in that database, much of the information collected illegally.. Never mind the mere existence of it as currently operated is a violation of fair trade laws via business collusion and arguably price fixing.
They used to post your Drivers license number and even your social security number, now I notice they block out that info,how nice of them.
Alot of the heavy contributors are tribal casinos so they basically have immunity.
Quote: HunterhillAlot of the heavy contributors are tribal casinos so they basically have immunity.
You go after the individual that created it, not a corporation.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13You guys are funny.
ZCore13
Ask Beverly Griffin if she was laughing after her company was sued.
Quote: Zcore13You guys are funny.
ZCore13
Please elaborate
Quote: IbeatyouracesI can understand alerts being sent to properties within the same ownership. What I can't fathom, is why one group would help its competition. If anything, I'd encourage the AP threats to target my competition!
One thing I've learned from working in this industry is casinos hate advantage players much more than their competitors. In fact, there is a great deal of respect between competitors. Based on the decisions casino management make, they would lose $100 to deny an advantage player $1. Advantage players are viewed, most of the time, as not much higher than cheaters.
Casino management feel it is in their best interests to share information on advantage players and cheaters rather than keep it to themselves. I think it could be argued that they are right about that, if their goal is profit maximization, which it should be.
Quote: WizardOne thing I've learned from working in this industry is casinos hate advantage players much more than their competitors. In fact, there is a great deal of respect between competitors. Based on the decisions casino management make, they would lose $100 to deny an advantage player $1. Advantage players are viewed, most of the time, as not much higher than cheaters.
Casino management feel it is in their best interests to share information on advantage players and cheaters rather than keep it to themselves. I think it could be argued that they are right about that, if their goal is profit maximization, which it should be.
That's definitely a fair argument in general, but, at least for me, it's completely the opposite. I have hammered one particular casino well into six figures due to the worst 86 experience I've ever had, which in any real democracy, should have definitely been illegal, but of course happened on sovereign ground. The casino in question is a heavy contributor to OSN. I regularly train and manage people to continue crushing their games, long after the 86 happened to me. They have some amazing games, but even if their games were merely good, I'd still at least have a deep-seated emotional desire to train and hire people to continue hitting them.
Meanwhile, the nicest 86/backoff I've ever gotten ("Sir, you're just too good for us. You're welcome to play any machines or play in the poker room and your comps are still good, but we simply request that you not play any table games")? I just play poker there, and I continue to get (albeit the typical extremely limited for poker players) comps from them. I've never sent a team over there or tried to play the tables myself again. I really think casinos shoot themselves in the foot with a heavy-handed approach to dealing with APs, and I'm not just talking about potential lawsuits.
Quote: houyiThat's definitely a fair argument in general, but, at least for me, it's completely the opposite. I have hammered one particular casino well into six figures due to the worst 86 experience I've ever had, which in any real democracy, should have definitely been illegal, but of course happened on sovereign ground. The casino in question is a heavy contributor to OSN. I regularly train and manage people to continue crushing their games, long after the 86 happened to me. They have some amazing games, but even if their games were merely good, I'd still at least have a deep-seated emotional desire to train and hire people to continue hitting them.
Meanwhile, the nicest 86/backoff I've ever gotten ("Sir, you're just too good for us. You're welcome to play any machines or play in the poker room and your comps are still good, but we simply request that you not play any table games")? I just play poker there, and I continue to get (albeit the typical extremely limited for poker players) comps from them. I've never sent a team over there or tried to play the tables myself again. I really think casinos shoot themselves in the foot with a heavy-handed approach to dealing with APs, and I'm not just talking about potential lawsuits.
I've mentioned this before. It's time to get rid of this Indian sovereignty garbage.
Quote: darkozWhat would be the purpose of that? Doubtful the casino will listen. GM: oh yeah we accidentally booted u 7 times. Our mistake. We will take u out of OSN right away. Yeah fat chance
I guess he could just wear a mask...
Quote: darkozThat would work trust me
Not always:)
Quote: IbeatyouracesGet a disguise.
Card counting may not be deemed criminal, but couldn't casinos ask the legislature to pass a law making it a crime to wear a disguise in a casino?
I wonder if they ever tried doing that in Nevada?
Quote: SiegfriedRoyHow can one find out whether he/she is in the OSN database? I've read something about using the freedom of information act (FOIA) through the casino. Is that really the only way other than knowing somebody who has access to OSN? When you do request it through FOIA through a casino, aren't you implicating yourself that you may have reasons to believe you may be in their database?
The FOIA was a joke.
Quote: HunterhillThe FOIA was a joke.
puhahaha. well, it got me.
Quote: MrVCard counting may not be deemed criminal, but couldn't casinos ask the legislature to pass a law making it a crime to wear a disguise in a casino?
I wonder if they ever tried doing that in Nevada?
I think not due to the nature of disguises and what your purpose is
For one thing what constitutes a disguise? A woman comes in wearing a wig. Is she in disguise or doing what lots of women do? Sunglasses? Hats? Acting like you are someone you are not? Growing a natural beard?
And ultimately what is the casino really asking? We want to stop people from disguising themselves so they can play a lawful game of blackjack card counting?
Quote: RSI still can't even figure out why we let the Indians have any land to begin with....
His ancestors were bad at genocide.
The whole database thing really gets at me. I can understand photographing a potential criminal that can harm your business, but if the whole country has deemed card counting not a criminal act, how can casinos get away with stealing your personal information and sharing it amongst other casinos over the internet over a non-criminal event? Like I said there has to be some type of consumer protection laws. You cant just photograph a non cirminal, steal their private information and share it across the country.
Also another thought; what if you even got the states involved that regulate their respective casinos? Bring the constitution into play by bringing a 4th amendment lawsuit against the state. The state would not want to get involved, pass a law protecting the non-criminal consumer and quickly tell the casinos they no longer can store a non-criminals' information onto the server or else they will be liable for damages. My .02.
Quote: darkozI think not due to the nature of disguises and what your purpose is
For one thing what constitutes a disguise? A woman comes in wearing a wig. Is she in disguise or doing what lots of women do? Sunglasses? Hats? Acting like you are someone you are not? Growing a natural beard?
And ultimately what is the casino really asking? We want to stop people from disguising themselves so they can play a lawful game of blackjack card counting?
I suppose the casinos would respond it is to prevent robbers robbing them while wearing a disguise.
They'd say nothing about card counting; they wouldn't need to in Nevada where the legislature kow-tows to gambling interests.
We'd all know why the law REALLY got on the books.
Quote: MrVI suppose the casinos would respond it is to prevent robbers robbing them while wearing a disguise.
They'd say nothing about card counting; they wouldn't need to in Nevada where the legislature kow-tows to gambling interests.
We'd all know why the law REALLY got on the books.
My point was how to define disguise. Will anyone purposefully disguising their natural hair be considered a disguise? No women with wigs? Sunglasses and facial hair not allowed?
Putting cotton in your mouth results in arrest? It just wont happen. People have the right to dress and make themselves look different regardless of reason. No toupees perhaps. No hair colorín? It gets ridiculous
You are too obsessed with this kind of stuff. You need to spent more time playing and less time on the forums, less time worried about what casino is supposedly cheating you, less time demanding to see them spread the cards(that's probably what got you put in the data base in the first place). less time worried What the best route to Vegas is, less time talking about how good your radar detector is,less time talking about what kind of window tint you have, less time picking out what kinda socks and shoes you need to stash your 50k in etc etc.Quote: ZenKinGInteresting that some have raised the exact thoughts i have been having lately regarding OSN and that's relating to the legality of casinos being able to photograph you, store your private information in a database without your consent, and sharing it with the world. Surely there has to be some type of consumer protection laws protecting the privacy of a consumer. You cant just go and steal people's private information without their consent and share it over a server domestically and possibly even internationally. Someone mentioned a class action lawsuit and i feel if it was taken seriously by the APs and we all gathered together and actually took it serious, all databases would cease to exist, well at least regarding the non-criminal APs.
The whole database thing really gets at me. I can understand photographing a potential criminal that can harm your business, but if the whole country has deemed card counting not a criminal act, how can casinos get away with stealing your personal information and sharing it amongst other casinos over the internet over a non-criminal event? Like I said there has to be some type of consumer protection laws. You cant just photograph a non cirminal, steal their private information and share it across the country.
Also another thought; what if you even got the states involved that regulate their respective casinos? Bring the constitution into play by bringing a 4th amendment lawsuit against the state. The state would not want to get involved, pass a law protecting the non-criminal consumer and quickly tell the casinos they no longer can store a non-criminals' information onto the server or else they will be liable for damages. My .02.
Why do I get the feeling you look like counter and you act all paranoid and suspicious? I bet you are always watching to see if they are cheating you.
Zenking"Well at least i now know which hoodie to not wear anymore."
WHAT??????? This leads me to believe you have never even been in a casino, let alone counted cards in one.
What casino allows you to wear a hoodie on the floor? Why would anyone who's trying to counting cards wear a hoodie in the first place? As soon as you walk in a casino with a hoodie on, surveillance notices you and usually calls security.
https://images.halloweencostumes.com/products/9156/1-1/funny-nose-glasses.jpg.
But seriously, the only time I felt it necessary to change my appearance was when something new or unknown came out. Nerd Glasses and a baseball cap seemed to work well.
This is by far.. the best advice you've been given in all of these threads.Quote: AxelWolfYou are too obsessed with this kind of stuff. You need to spent more time playing and less time on the forums, less time worried about what casino is supposedly cheating you, less time demanding to see them spread the cards(that's probably what got you put in the data base in the first place). less time worried What the best route to Vegas is, less time talking about how good your radar detector is,less time talking about what kind of window tint you have, less time picking out what kinda socks and shoes you need to stash your 50k in etc etc.
You had a "." at the end of your picture URL, way to be a newb. Fixed that for you.Quote: AxelWolfExcluding Card counting. I would be more worried about other AP's spotting me the the casino. I always come prepared.
https://images.halloweencostumes.com/products/9156/1-1/funny-nose-glasses.jpg
Just because I said hoodie doesn't mean I wear it over my head while I play and walk into a casino. Are you not aware a hooide canbe worn with the head part off behind your neck? Too funny. I hope that was a troll. I don't know which world you live in, but a hoodie doesn't signify ALWAYS having your head covered by it.
Quote: RomesThis is by far.. the best advice you've been given in all of these threads.
You had a "." at the end of your picture URL, way to be a newb. Fixed that for you.
I'm pretty upset now. Out of the infinitesimally small probability of scouring the web for some crazy random picture, he managed to find "my" picture and post it on here for every casino to see! Now I have to shave my nose hairs.
I thought you might say that when I was responding, and I was going to ask, but it made no sense that you would specifically mention not wearing that HOODIE again. As if somehow not wearing that hoodie would make any difference at all. I guess you will now tell me its bright pink or something really noticeable. You could have said sweat shirt, or change your appearance or some other wording, but you said hoodie.Quote: ZenKinGYea I never been to a casino or even counted cards in my life. LOL. Unreal. And I'm the skeptical and paranoid one?
Just because I said hoodie doesn't mean I wear it over my head while I play and walk into a casino. Are you not aware a hooide canbe worn with the head part off behind your neck? Too funny. I hope that was a troll. I don't know which world you live in, but a hoodie doesn't signify ALWAYS having your head covered by it.
No, no.... you specifically mentioned hoodie to indicate you had been wearing it up to help hide your face. You realized your mistake after you read my post and you are now backtracking using the most obvious.
Quote: SkepticYou have zero expectation for privacy in a casino. Zip. Just as I have every right to surveil you while on my property so does any other private person or business.
If you were at someone's house, would you be OK with them taking pictures of you, your drivers license, your social security number, address, and any other private information and sharing it with the world?
Residential vs Business... "private" vs public.Quote: RSIf you were at someone's house, would you be OK with them taking pictures of you, your drivers license, your social security number, address, and any other private information and sharing it with the world?
Quote: RomesResidential vs Business... "private" vs public.
What does private vs public have to do with it?
You're at a grocery store and just a regular shopper. Not stealing stuff, doing anything wrong, nor illegal. Would you want your ID, SSN, car, license plate, name, etc. to be shared with others (oftentimes publicly)?
The store is a business open to the public. Therefor they are free to record you, take pictures of you, etc, without your consent. The cashier could even ask young looking patrons buying alcohol for their ID (the horror)! The difference with a casino is when they ask for your ID they often set it on a clear window with a video recording device to take a snapshot of your info. It's pretty sheepish and certainly kinda violates your privacy, but you don't have to visit that store (or casino).Quote: RSWhat does private vs public have to do with it?
You're at a grocery store and just a regular shopper. Not stealing stuff, doing anything wrong, nor illegal. Would you want your ID, SSN, car, license plate, name, etc. to be shared with others (oftentimes publicly)?
Stores could most certainty put a list together of people who've attempted to rob them and give that info to other stores. No one would blink an eye. Again, casinos take a snakey path close to this one and say they're sharing information about "undesirables." It just so happens that people who know how to win are "undesirable."
