Using a player’s card as cover for counting?

Hi folks, I’ve been playing with this idea, and wanted other’s opinions:

Situation: I’ve been backed-off numerous times on my last couple Vegas runs. I feel that one early flag to the casinos that I’m a counter is when I cash in for chips. Pit bosses almost always ask if I have a player’s card. When I tell them no, they ask if I’d like one, and I always decline.

This looks very suspicious, especially when I start betting green and black on every hand. I can almost hear them thinking, “betting that large, and don’t want comps? Something’s up with this guy!” They then start watching me closely to see if I really am up to something, or get the eye-in-the-sky to do it. And then the back off comes shortly thereafter once they figure it out.

Point being, not offering up a player’s card puts you on their radar before you’ve even placed your first bet! You are an unknown entity to them, and therefore a potential risk to their bottom line. So they start scrutinizing you right off the bat, and without great cover play, you’ll soon get shut down.

So what do you think of this possible solution: Get a player’s card, and build up your credibility in the casinos' eyes by playing multiple hours on several different trips. Keep counting, but spread very modestly to minimize losses, but not anything aggressive so as to draw heat (for example, at good 2D games, a very small 1-to-2 unit spread is enough to give the player a slight edge, but certainly won’t draw undo attention). Set your 1-2 unit spread so your average bet size is roughly equal to what it’d be were you counting and using your normal spread. This way, the casino gets “used” to you playing at that average bet size.

After establishing a record with them as a “regular” gambler, start increasing your spread, slowly at first so as not to tip them off by a sudden change in betting behavior. Maybe over the course of several trips, work your way back to your normal spread.

At the end of all this, you’ve accomplished a couple things:
1) You can now use a player’s card for every session. This takes away the immediate scrutiny you were getting before by declining a player’s card.
2) You have the “trust” of the casinos, because of your record (via your player’s card ratings) – they won’t suspect you of anything suspicious because of that established history, and won’t watch your play later on, even after you’ve re-established your full spread.
3) You might be able to enjoy some comps along the way!

So, what do folks think? Am I wrong in thinking this is a credible strategy to get hassle-free play at the tables? I understand it would take the upfront investment of multiple trips to “play the game straight” and establish your record, but if it buys you many future sessions of heat-free spreads, I’m thinking it’d be worth it.

Hey harikarilord,

Interesting thoughts and points, though it certainly sounds like a lot of work and waste of your time not generating the EV you could potentially be generating while sitting at the tables. While that might work, for one place at a time, I will have to say that in my opinion it's a waste of time and EV. Go to gamblingwithanedge.com and check out the old radio shows with smallcapgrowth. You might want to think about taking his approach, which is just blast the hell away... a lot of places will back you off, but you WILL find places that just don't care or have no heat and you'll be able to play for hours and days on end getting tons of hours and generating tons of EV based off your larger "smash it" spread.

After that, you can't always build a 'report' with the casino as a lot of back offs come from surveillance, not from the pit. You have no idea if they're on the same shifts, how many there are, if new ones were hired, old ones were fired, etc. A lot of times they don't care if you have a card or not they're just watching your spread (at some of the DD games as you mentioned). You'll still get picked off using this approach which takes a fair amount of time and lost EV, PER casino.

You'll never fully have the casinos trust. I've played at places where I knew they thought I was a complete fish giving money away... but when you start winning their tune changes. You can put all that effort in to get up to a 1:20 spread on DD. Let's pretend that worked and you got NO HEAT from the pit for spreading 1:20 on DD. Okay, even if you're playing $10 tables, suddenly you're pulling down $1k here $2k there on your wins and you think no one's gonna notice or take an issue with that enough to at least just evaluate your play? Your play WILL get evaluated and all of that time/effort you put in before is worthless at that point. You'll be tossed all the same and if you're on a card your name will be added to databases/lists/etc.

In the end, I like that you're trying to think of new strategies, but this one is just not an economical one and in the end the logic will fail as your trust level won't come in to affect when you get re-evaluated when/if you start actually winning.

If you want to camp out at one casino you could use a card and then you need to cost yourself with a fair amount of cover... Cover plays (betting more off the top, changing tables after exposing a big bet, playing other donk games occasionally to put other action on your card, etc, etc, etc). All of that comes with a cost to your bottom line and if you do it correctly enough to find some longevity out of it, in the end the numbers don't lie. If you have a positive Win/Loss statement a couple years in a row, they'll ban you from BJ simply because you're beating them, regardless if they think you're a counter or not. Casinos don't like to lose ;-).

I agree with Romes here. Playing under a refused name keeps your name safe in case you get backed off which eventually will happen, regardless if you play with a player's card or not. If you do choose to use a player's card you need to learn how to rat-hole your chips to try and show a loss or break-even play to extend longevity.

Also I think it's common knowledge not to even try counting at certain casinos. The Aria for example literally has a special surveillance department whose only job is to look and review the skill level of people. The Aria spends the most on game-protection out of all the major chains, which by the way is hilarious because they probably are costing themselves more in game-protection than they protect. I've seen casinos kick out players that were amateur counters still playing a losing game just closer to break-even because they're just that paranoid. Advantage play probably costs casinos <.1% total profit annually and they spend millions on protecting that.

I would try and change appearances now because every time an AP is backed off, they are added to a database that is shared with other casinos. You are certainly in there. Do your research on the quality of your casinos, play short sessions, change your appearance, use light cover when the Pit Critters are watching, try to blend in with the ploppies by using their language "if you didn't take that card then the dealer would have busted," and all that nonsense. Don't be arrogant by correcting ploppies basic strategy mistakes, if anything act stupid. Wear a hat, or glasses, or grow a beard. All these things above will extend your longevity without losing any money.

Thanks for the replies Romes and crazydazy. I certainly agree that this strategy falls apart once the long run sets in and you still have a winning record against the casino. To that effect, I agree with crazydazy that pocketing chips and cashing them in later on different days/shifts is a crucial piece of this strategy. (wouldn’t be hard to calculate what your expected losses should be if you were playing on the level, and pocket away chips as need be to ensure your recorded wins/losses are in line with what the casino expects).

Understood this isn’t foolproof as the casino could still randomly re-evaluate your play at any time (new surveillance crew, new policies, etc – to your point Romes), but establishing a “losing record” removes a very important trigger for them to take a second look. To this end, it might not hurt to start every trip by playing for a half hour or so at each of the shops you plan on hitting while using your minimal 1-2 bet spread, just to reassure any new eyes that you’re a “regular” player.

Sounds like it might be a lot of work, but bear in mind, with this strategy you would only need a small handful of joints that have bought in to your act. (Technically, you would only need to fool one casino into this game!) Bouncing around amongst potentially dozens of different casinos, while necessary if you are spreading fully and not worrying much about cover bets, would no longer be necessary with this strategy. Instead, you could hole up in just a couple joints for the duration of your trip. Pick the 2-3 games with the best rules/penetration, “earn their trust”, and forget about all other games/shops!

Speaking of bouncing around from casino to casino because heat keeps you from settling down anywhere for long… I think your hourly wage should take into account not just the time you spend at the tables, but the time you spend moving between games as well. With a hit-and-run strategy, a ton of time is spent commuting/finding the next decent game, and not getting hands in (my last trip, I spent more time at these non-value added tasks than I did at the actual tables).

Point being, all other things being equal, marathon sessions are a far more economical way of playing the game than hit-and runs. Of course the crux is finding hassle-free marathon sessions... But that’s where this player’s card strategy comes into play.

Consider further that while always playing with your full spread may be the most economical way to play the game *on paper*, in reality it might not be because you will soon find yourself burned out from all the best games. This means you are pushed into evermore marginal games, and the subsequent decrease in EV and rise in ROR that follows. This is the troublesome problem of longevity rearing its head again… who cares if you play a great game if no one takes your action!

More thoughts? I appreciate the conversation – thanks guys!

Dear OP,

I haven't read through all of the detailed replies but to take your side and opinion on this thread and to keep the discussion going is YES play with a Players Card.... YOUR FRIEND's Players Card that is. I played one store out of town every day for 2 weeks straight averaging 4 hours a day while allowing my friend to take his girlfiend out for a nice steak dinner at the end of it. I hope they win the drawing for that Cruise ship trip... one can dream right?

One thing of note. In locations where you play unrated, make sure you also do not use your card for any machine play. You can be back tracked to it from surveillance.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

One thing of note. In locations where you play unrated, make sure you also do not use your card for any machine play. You can be back tracked to it from surveillance.

Or use a credit card for hotel/restaurant/gas/etc.

Quote: harikarilord

...Understood this isn’t foolproof as the casino could still randomly re-evaluate your play at any time (new surveillance crew, new policies, etc – to your point Romes), but establishing a “losing record” removes a very important trigger for them to take a second look. To this end, it might not hurt to start every trip by playing for a half hour or so at each of the shops you plan on hitting while using your minimal 1-2 bet spread, just to reassure any new eyes that you’re a “regular” player.

When they re-evaluate you, this often time has zero to do with you "record" and whether or not you're a winning/losing player. Basically you'll get re-evaluated from surveillance, which doesn't see your winning/losing record up front perhaps. After that, if you do have a winning record it often shoes on the screen when the PB's swipe you in so they would be the ones to call up to surveillance to have you checked out again. Winning or losing record aside you'll still get re-evaluated far too often to have this approach work, in my opinion.

Quote: harikarilord

Sounds like it might be a lot of work, but bear in mind, with this strategy you would only need a small handful of joints that have bought in to your act. (Technically, you would only need to fool one casino into this game!) Bouncing around amongst potentially dozens of different casinos, while necessary if you are spreading fully and not worrying much about cover bets, would no longer be necessary with this strategy. Instead, you could hole up in just a couple joints for the duration of your trip. Pick the 2-3 games with the best rules/penetration, “earn their trust”, and forget about all other games/shops!

Again this sounds all fine and dandy but for me it all falls apart when you think they've "bought in to your act." Like I mentioned above you'll NEVER have the casinos full trust. Even if you Rat Hole enough chips to dampen your wins or make it look like you're losing someone will notice your bets going up and down with the count. It's a side effect we just simply can not avoid... When the count is in our advantage, we must bet more... a lot more.

Quote: harikarilord

Speaking of bouncing around from casino to casino because heat keeps you from settling down anywhere for long… I think your hourly wage should take into account not just the time you spend at the tables, but the time you spend moving between games as well. With a hit-and-run strategy, a ton of time is spent commuting/finding the next decent game, and not getting hands in (my last trip, I spent more time at these non-value added tasks than I did at the actual tables).

I agree entirely that your hourly should be all the time spent driving to/from the casino, shopping games, etc, etc. Now add on to that X amount of hours and negative EV to try to get this plan to work. Say you play poorly, or whatever for a month... Think of that negative EV you've generated for that month and spread it out over the next 6 months where you're trying to play a winning game. It'll chop your other months down. Basically you're taking 1 step back and 2 forward, when you could be 3-4 steps forward if you took the hit and run approach or found a tolerant place during your play and just played there for days until you got a back off. This is another benefit to hit and run at a lot of shops... You get to experience a lot of shops and you get to find those tolerant places much easier. When you lock yourself down to 2-3 casinos you're blind to the outside world, promotions, etc, etc and you'll inevitably have to start all over again at square 1 when you are eventually identified and booted. I say eventually, but seriously this could happen in your first few sessions of actually playing/betting properly. That would suck 10x as bad if you put a month of prep in at 3 places and got the boot from a couple of them in the first few weeks of "actually" playing.

Quote: harikarilord

Consider further that while always playing with your full spread may be the most economical way to play the game *on paper*, in reality it might not be because you will soon find yourself burned out from all the best games. This means you are pushed into evermore marginal games, and the subsequent decrease in EV and rise in ROR that follows. This is the troublesome problem of longevity rearing its head again… who cares if you play a great game if no one takes your action!

I definitely agree with you here. Some players do not take this in to account and it's great that you understand this. There's a BIG difference between your game on paper and your game in reality, from a lot of different aspects. Sometimes people are scared to bet the paper dictated bet (pit was watching, I've been losing, etc, etc, etc). Sometimes people stick entirely too much to the paper and forget about cover and other things and that's what gets them more easily identified. There's a very sweet spot and with some experience the "paper" game and the "live" game will merge in to one winning game. You'll update your paper after time to more accurately reflect your true game, and once you find your true game you can make updates to it. I also love that you said it doesn't matter if you have the best game in the world if you can't play it... I've said this far too many times to remember, but this is why I consider HEAT the #1 playing condition above all others. Next comes penetration, and after that other rules. Show me a game with 0 heat and crappy rules, and more than likely there are people beating this game.

Fun and interesting convo, but I still think it would be a waste of your time and EV to try to gain the casinos trust =P.

Using a players card can be a great way to increase winnings at blackjack. It sounds like you would be using it do decrease winnings. Not a good plan