uses "computer software" to evaluate one's skill?

i know there are some casinos that uses computer software to evaluate the players skill according to CBJN. i got caught at one of those stores by that "software". the reason im assuming that i got caught by that software is the pit bosses were looking at the computer monitor for awhile and asked me to leave and of course it was stated on CBJN too. my question is does anyone have any information on that "software" like how it evaluates the skill? i dont think 1-2 spread on dd game would be considered as an ap, but what about 1-4 spread on a shoe game? will it catch you whenever you raise your bet on positive count no matter how you spread? anyone know the name of the software?

p.s i was playing shoe game spreading 1-12 when i got caught.

Quote: deviru

1-2 spread on dd game would be considered as an ap, but what about 1-4 spread on a shoe game?

If designed to do that, then the software would determine/consider/flag the player to be an ap or not by its criteria, and on the triggers that it is set up to flag (e.g., any extended player +EV period with raised betting amounts, regardless of spread size, etc.). The house adjusts and decides its tightness or looseness.

Quote: deviru

will it catch you whenever you raise your bet on positive count no matter how you spread?

If the +EV trigger or whatever trigger setting had been set, if the player breaches the trigger, then yes.

I suppose various houses would use tighter or looser settings.

We knew this day was coming.

I'd like to know what the data entry looked like. Was someone manually typing in your cards, the dealer's cards, your bets, etc? Systems vendors have been trying to crack table games tracking for years now and I didn't realize there was a viable automatic system that any operator was actually using. Are you sure it wasn't just surveillance manually monitoring your play and making an entry into the tracking system that got flagged for the pit boss at the podium?

Couldn't they use a shoe similar to Baccarat that reads the cards as they come out of the shoe? I would imagine then they could keep the count and check for things such as +EV situational betting and/or deviations.

Still, to make a 'safe' and 'accurate' assessment one would think they would need multiple +EV rounds to ensure a player is betting higher in them only. To boot what about the drunk guy that happens to ramp up his bet at the right time? Next, what about the counter that doesn't have any concept of Bankroll Management and RoR and while he's there counting and spreading he's going to inevitably go broke to that casino due to the variance of the game? This machine is going to kick out some wrong people, but even of the 'right' people it does kick out I would easily bet the majority would have went bust to the casino anyways.

Software and efforts similar to this are a COMPLETE waste of time and money for the casino. The amount of time and money they spend trying to implement these processes are always larger than the cost of any actual real winning counters. It's funny, because casinos are stupid enough to let these companies come in and scare the bajeezus out of them enough to get suckered in to purchasing these exceedingly expensive systems that they in turn don't really ever learn how to use properly.

On top of that, there's maybe a handful of places that were stupid enough to purchase these systems, so the majority of casinos you don't even have to worry about.

Surveillance is probably involved.

I heard that some camera-based automated systems can track the counts from a shoe (card recognition systems), usable by surveillance crews, with the spread inputted or verified by surveillance also.

I can't see how surveillance is not involved.

Quote: Romes

Software and efforts similar to this are a COMPLETE waste of time and money for the casino. The amount of time and money they spend trying to implement these processes are always larger than the cost of any actual real winning counters. It's funny, because casinos are stupid enough to let these companies come in and scare the bajeezus out of them enough to get suckered in to purchasing these exceedingly expensive systems that they in turn don't really ever learn how to use properly.

On top of that, there's maybe a handful of places that were stupid enough to purchase these systems, so the majority of casinos you don't even have to worry about.

You have to give credit to the guys selling them if he can scare the casinos in to buying them. That is the American way, build what someone thinks is a better mousetrap. It doesn't matter if it actually works or not once you made the sale. Most don't have a long term vision, only short term profits in mind.

Quote: Romes

Software and efforts similar to this are a COMPLETE waste of time and money for the casino. The amount of time and money they spend trying to implement these processes are always larger than the cost of any actual real winning counters. It's funny, because casinos are stupid enough to let these companies come in and scare the bajeezus out of them enough to get suckered in to purchasing these exceedingly expensive systems that they in turn don't really ever learn how to use properly.

Software and automation generally provides great business savings, from everything from retail to banking to accounting to operations. If card counting apps can be run on an I-Phone or laptop, then this is not a major deal. I would say that most Account payable or client tracking apps would be way more complex than a card counting detection app on a computer. Any gaming mathematician can do this as a small job without much ado if card recognition systems are available, and they are.

casinos run automated player comping apps cheaply and easily all the time, and I don't see how this is an expensive moonshot of an application; it's +1, -1, +0, with bet tracking added.

Quote: Paigowdan

Software and automation generally provides great business savings, from everything from retail to banking to accounting to operations. If card counting apps can be run on an I-Phone or laptop, then this is not a major deal. I would say that most Account payable or client tracking apps would be way more complex than a card counting detection app on a computer. Any gaming mathematician can do this as a small job without much ado if card recognition systems are available, and they are.

casinos run automated player comping apps cheaply and easily all the time, and I don't see how this is an expensive moonshot of an application; it's +1, -1, +0, with bet tracking added.

It's apples and oranges to compare "general automation" to what this specific software in casinos is trying to do for blackjack. Of course automation is amazing... but there's no reason to automate some processes as it becomes LESS efficient and MORE expensive.

While I have a great respect for math and mathematicians alike, I actually disagree with you that a general mathematician could properly use card tracking applications to properly identify and kick out winning players. Mostly for the reasons I stated above. The mathematician will go "The TC is +2, which is a player advantage of .67% and the player has upped his bet from 1 unit to 3 units... Kick him out!" when in reality there are a whole LIST of applicable reasons for this... The player is running a progression system and happen to be progressing during a positive count. The player is drunk and betting wildly. The player IS a counter, but one that doesn't understand kelly/bankroll management/ror and would eventually dump their BR to the casino anyways... etc, etc, etc. There are SO MANY 'human factors' that need to go in to this that it could not be easily programmed. It would take someone who is an AP to understand how to program these to have numerous multiple checks to be conclusive that it is actually a card counter and none of the other conditions above. Thus, if any real card counter keeps their sessions short or leaves after exposing their max bet once, then these systems will NEVER be able to detect them. This also doesn't even include the counters that will eventually fail due to variance and lack of bankroll.

Less we also forget... If we bring mathematicians in to write software about WHEN the player has an advantage in real time, I'd imagine some 'preferential shuffling' (which is illegal) would start taking place... "Hey Bob, the app says right now the players have the edge on us!... Looks like it's time to shuffle up!"

On this, preferential shuffling would be both illegal, and probably not done as especially unnecessary, now that a more clear "back off" point is known, and would be the decision instead. If preferential shuffling wasn't a major issue prior to this technology, it shouldn't be after its implementation. I'd say accuse them of preferential shuffling when they do it, not before the fact.

As for such a system, it would not be hard to do, and would provide more of an indication for the floor supervisor to consider over many hands, rather than a "kill on first action" where the EV is +0.001, and the bet was up from $5 to $10. Also on this, I'd say accuse them on the fact, and not before.

In other words, it'll catch card counting where supervision may otherwise fail to catch it, and where floor supervision would make a call, To make an accusation that they would either go nuclear on the most trivial of events (or, ignore an extreme spread AP situation entirely for that matter), I'd say it would fall somewhere in-between, and where a clear indication of AP had occurred. The whole point of such technology is to clarify, and to provide good guidelines - to reduce the claimed human factor issues.

I'm certain that after some growing pains, guidelines would become more accurate over time as an accurate diagnostic tool, where ploppies would play un-accosted, and where AP's would be politely backed off with heart-warming grace by the pit critters, that these fine institutions are renown for.

As casinos wish to keep players playing, I think they'd ignore a false and trivial positive occurring on a ploppie, but would back off on a more clear cut instance of AP play, accounting for human factors. In this regard, experienced and reasonable floor supervisors would be required.

True, if such a thing were implemented, a leisurely card counting session would be a thing of the past, necessitating hit-and-run tactics for the AP.

Quote: Paigowdan

On this, preferential shuffling would be both illegal, and probably not done, as especially unnecessary now. If preferential shuffling wasn't a major issue prior to this technology, it shouldn't be after its implementation. I'd say accuse them of this when they do it, not before the fact.

lol I've been shuffled on in good counts for raising my bet more times than you've rooted for the house on a topic. Okay, well maybe not that many, but you get my point.

If you don't think preferential shuffling is real and currently happening... Go downtown and play some games. When the count gets big, bet huge, and watch them shuffle the cards. Much like you tell me not to assume, perhaps you shouldn't assume it's not actively happening.

Quote: Paigowdan

In other words, it'll catch card counting where supervision may otherwise fail to catch it, and where floor supervision would make a call, To make an accusation that they would either go nuclear on the most trivial of events (or, ignore an extreme spread AP situation entirely for that matter), I'd say it would fall somewhere in-between, and where a clear indication of AP had occurred. The whole point of such technology is to clarify, and to provide good guidelines - to reduce the claimed human factor issues.

I'll agree with you that the software MUST be used in connection with a floor to make the human decision, but where I'll again disagree with you is on my other points. How will a casino know what a bankroll is for a counter? A massive $10-$1000 spread is probably over most counters bankrolls, but consider this... I said (correctly) that most counters don't understand bankroll and RoR.. Thus they might only be spreading $25-$100, but their bankroll might be $1,000. This wouldn't be a big spread yet the "counter" will more than likely bust due to variance to your casino. These are things that must be UNDERSTOOD by someone who knows the game and considered in a case by case basis instead of a generic catch all program.

I agree these conditions could be refined a bit over time to be a 'little' more accurate, but again, there's just NO accounting for some of the situations I gave above. Thus in the end it will come down to a HUMAN decision with variables from this computer that the floor/surveillance could already know themselves, quite easily. Thus, what is the purpose of the software? And you're going to tell me that the software is going to "save" casinos money in the long run? lol...

Hit and run IS the main way to play the game at this point. Talk to any counter in Vegas. 99.9999% of them use a hit and run strategy when it comes to conventional counting and/or non-team play. I'm glad you brought that up again though, as I'd like to re-iterate how useless this software would be against the standard hit and run player. The only counters this software would even identify is majorly the ones that don't have a winning game and the casino WANTS. This software is going to cost the casino money in more ways than one.

Quote: Romes

If you don't think preferential shuffling is real and currently happening... Go downtown and play some games. When the count gets big, bet huge, and watch them shuffle the cards. Much like you tell me not to assume, perhaps you shouldn't assume it's not actively happening.

Worked at a house of a mainstream operator for years, never did it, was never told to do it, never saw it. Maybe at some card rooms, yes, wouldn't be surprised. It may be considered a counter-measure, but in the eyes of a gambling hall, it would be doing exactly 100% the same wrong that they claim of the card counter. Preferential shuffling is the house counting cards too. But then, who is a card counter to complain when the house does exactly the same thing. Call gaming.

Quote: Romes

I'll agree with you that the software MUST be used in connection with a floor to make the human decision, but where I'll again disagree with you is on my other points. How will a casino know what a bankroll is for a counter? A massive $10-$1000 spread is probably over most counters bankrolls, but consider this... I said (correctly) that most counters don't understand bankroll and RoR.. Thus they might only be spreading $25-$100, but their bankroll might be $1,000. This wouldn't be a big spread yet the "counter" will more than likely bust due to variance to your casino. These are things that must be UNDERSTOOD by someone who knows the game and considered in a case by case basis instead of a generic catch all program.

All the casino has to do to spot and stop a card counter is to provably correlate the bet sizing to the count, and tracking this on a computer (and on videotape) is 100%. Outside of NJ, casinos aren't obligated to take any bet if the can substantiate play-related reasons or malfeasance.

Quote: Romes

I agree these conditions could be refined a bit over time to be a 'little' more accurate, but again, there's just NO accounting for some of the situations I gave above. Thus in the end it will come down to a HUMAN decision with variables from this computer that the floor/surveillance could already know themselves, quite easily. Thus, what is the purpose of the software? And you're going to tell me that the software is going to "save" casinos money in the long run? lol...

In the end it'll be "technology assisted and verified" human decision, and it'll be cheap and easy, a PC and camera and processing software. I was in data processing for 20 years: software, once written, runs and runs, and maintained by the seller. If it's cost-effective, it goes in, and it would certainly be the case with APs overall taking hundreds of millions from a billion-dollar business.

Quote: Romes

Hit and run IS the main way to play the game at this point. Talk to any counter in Vegas. 99.9999% of them use a hit and run strategy when it comes to conventional counting and/or non-team play. I'm glad you brought that up again though, as I'd like to re-iterate how useless this software would be against the standard hit and run player.

Hit-and-run seems a rough adaptation to rely on, and where the player is known after the fact for the next time. A rougher gig nowadays.

Quote: Romes

The only counters this software would even identify is majorly the ones that don't have a winning game and the casino WANTS. This software is going to cost the casino money in more ways than one.

No; the casino may allow an AP to play and try if they wish, with the casino considering some play allowable if profitable. Again, casinos make the call to accept play outside of NJ. Is this morally wrong? Yes, in the sense that if a behavior is unacceptable, then cleanly and reliably enforce it upon its appearance.

Quote: Paigowdan

Worked at a house of a mainstream operator for years, never did it, was never told to do it, never saw it. Maybe at some card rooms, yes, wouldn't be surprised. It may be considered a counter-measure, but in the eyes of a gambling hall, it would be doing exactly 100% the same wrong that they claim of the card counter. Preferential shuffling is the house counting cards too. But then, who is a card counter to complain when the house does exactly the same thing. Call gaming.

No... When I count cards I don't alter the state of the game. When in your example the casino "counts cards" they are shuffling and ALTERING THE STATE OF THE GAME, which as you pointed out earlier, is illegal.

Again, if you want proof to your own eyes, just walk in to about any downtown property and knock yourself out with a decent sized spread. Hell, it's in my trip report from years ago when I was in vegas how I got shuffled on.

Quote: Paigowdan

Hit-and-run seems a rough adaptation to rely on, and where the player is known after the fact for the next time. A rougher gig nowadays.

lol so many things... One, how is the counter known for the next time? This strategy doesn't use player cards, and often time if the player is in and out in a shoe or two the pit doesn't even know he's there essentially. Two, any good counter rotates shops and shifts, so while you saw this "unknown player" today, you might not see him in your shop for another week or month and then it'll be on a different shift. What, is every casino going to just take pictures of ANYONE that bets bigger and hold on to those pictures for the off-chance that that person (in a massively tourist town) is going to come back "eventually" and they're going to get another chance to re-evaluate their play??? lol

Or the alternative is to just take it on a case by case basis and hire competent pit personnel that has some real understanding of the actual game and counting...

Quote: MathExtremist

I'd like to know what the data entry looked like. Was someone manually typing in your cards, the dealer's cards, your bets, etc? Systems vendors have been trying to crack table games tracking for years now and I didn't realize there was a viable automatic system that any operator was actually using. Are you sure it wasn't just surveillance manually monitoring your play and making an entry into the tracking system that got flagged for the pit boss at the podium?

It used to be called blackjack survey voice,the company was sold and the name has changed.
It is a program that an operator enters all the cards,and bets sizes and player decisions. It is a voice activated program or it can be done with the keyboard.

OP,

I've been out of the game for a few years, but I cannot recall any mention of software that was "automatic", like the use of cameras or shufflers to count/track. I recall some discussion, but it was more a "in the works" pipe dream than "currently being tested". Again, small market a few years out, but I have met with the leaders of protection and I'd bet heavily against automation at this point or anytime soon.

Our use of software included the pit not at all, save for perhaps some communication, either from them for us to watch out, or to them giving the results. If our guys were on the computer, it was either unrelated or they were viewing comps, history, and/or gleaning personal information.

When it comes to the software, or at least the ware I was familiar with, it's heavily dependent on surveillance. Not only is surv expressly responsible for conducting the exam including viewing all related footage and manual input into the program, but also to decipher the results and suggest a plan of action. This, IMO, is where your huge variance comes in. I was ALWAYS a "let 'em play" guy, believing our chances of f#$%ing up a good play exceed our chances of busting a legit problem by a factor of, like, a million. And I felt and believe I was an extreme minority. Most wanted to "act" because it's seen as "doing something".

So when the footage is viewed, info entered, and a results report generated, it's given to the operator in non black and white terms. It'll give base information like "Player deviated from strategy X times in Y instances, the sum of which resulted in an advan / disadvan of Z%". Or it'll show deviations with the cards stated and show the probability the player was colluding or hole carding, or whatever. It is up to the operator to be able to understand this info, make sense of it, and then make a proper decision. And one of those steps is rife with opportunities for errors, and a lot depends on what ME would call "being numerate". If you see a percentage of a chance of one type of possible AP, how do you then make a reasonable idea of the level of threat it poses? In gaming, at least what I've seen, there's no metric, no P&P's, nothing. It's all mostly an operator hunching and guessing. Get a guy like me and you'd have to damn near be writing the count on the table for me to believe you're a threat. Do it to my supe and you so much as itch your nose and it's a signal for the entire Tran organization to begin the looting.

I wish I had something more concrete, but there's just too many variables to think your way out of this one. I'd just focus on the basics of camo play and clear your mind of the worry.

Quote: Romes

When I count cards I don't alter the state of the game. When in your example the casino "counts cards" they are shuffling and ALTERING THE STATE OF THE GAME, which as you pointed out earlier, is illegal.

Not in New Jersey. I don't know if anyone's ever brought suit in Nevada to raise that question, though I expect there would be heavy reference to the New Jersey litigations:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/22053-someone-please-explain-even-if-card-counting-were-actually-illegal/20/#post459245
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/22382-what-constitutes-cheating/#post464868

Quote: Romes

No... When I count cards I don't alter the state of the game. When in your example the casino "counts cards" they are shuffling and ALTERING THE STATE OF THE GAME, which as you pointed out earlier, is illegal.

Preferential shuffling does indeed use the count:
High count = do a shuffle
neg. count = continue the deal.

And like AP card counting, it is using the count for one side's advantage.