Vegas Session Length

You always hear about playing short sessions, especially KJ, which I dont know if he even contributes to this forum or any forum anymore. The problem I have is everyone says, to extend longevity in vegas, you want to jump around as much as you want and keep your sessions to 45 minutes to 1 hour and once you show your spread once, leave. Although I agree with that style of play and is going to be a staple of mine while im in vegas, the questions i have are this.

Everyone says once you show your spread. What about when you only show half of your spread say up to +2 or +3? What about when you wong out of negative counts such as -1? Do you leave the store after only one or two wong outs? Isn't wonging out of negative counts, the same as 'showing your spread' and that you should now leave to the next store as well? What do you do if you show half of your spread to +3, do you leave to the next store as well? What about if you wong into a game and once it goes negative, but you never showed your FULL spread? Should you leave?

Not everything is so cut and dry when people say, 'once you show your spread, leave'. Basically what im asking is this. How many wong outs at -1 or showing half of my spread warrants me to leave? What about wong ins? Should I leave after one wong in EVEN if I didnt show my full spread? Obviously after showing my FULL spread I will leave, but what about the other criteria such as half a spread or wonging out of negative counts?

Im trying to extend longevity as much as possible in vegas. I also wont be playing any of the DD counter traps. I will exclusively play shoe games with only the best rules. I already have a decent rotation listed in my document.

Not every store is the same, or even remotely close often. Not what you want to hear, but "it depends." Why I even answer these questions anymore I'm not sure, guess I'm a slow learner

I like the idea of leaving after one hour or after you show your spread, whichever comes first. When you are living in Vegas no point in wearing out your welcome when there are four or more other places to play that day. I would not Wong out more than once in the hour without leaving.

Quote: DRich

I like the idea of leaving after one hour or after you show your spread, whichever comes first. When you are living in Vegas no point in wearing out your welcome when there are four or more other places to play that day. I would not Wong out more than once in the hour without leaving.

Yea, my original strategy was 'whichever comes first'. Either showing my spread AND capping my visit to one hour, but then i realized i wont log that many hours that way. I have about 14 casinos in my rotation and across 3 shifts so i separated them into 2 day intervals of 7 casinos each for 6 days a week. For example first set of 7 casinos morning shift one day, then second set of 7 casinos morning day, and then attack the afternoon and night shift accordingly for rest of week.

With that being said, i started thinking that what will happen is i wont be able to log as many hours as I want or expect to which was based off averaging '45 minutes' of actual playing time per casino or 4.5 hours a day, 27 hours a week, 1404 hours a year. The reason that wont happen is i dont think i can average 45 minutes a casino with that strict playing strategy; leaving after showing spread and also capping visits to 1 hour. If i got rid of the 1 hour cap and just left after showing my spread, i might be able to average 45 minutes. But then this also goes back to how strict i want to be with showing a 'spread'. Do i leave after showing half a spread? If so I wont average 45 minutes either. Also if i leave after just ONE wong out, there's no way in the long run ill be averaging 45 minutes of actual play time per casino.

DRich when you say 'show your spread', do you mean FULL spread or do you leave even if you showed half of your spread say +2 or +3?

Any other thoughts of what I can do to get in as many hours possible while flying under the radar? Should i just play the full hour every time and possibly and occasionally show my spread several times?

I think u have to be there before u play? Right????

I would add that leaving after showing spread once not realistic for DD (unless other places in quick walking distance, hint) to get any time in, it makes the shoe a better game for you most places. When I lived in LV, playing slightly smaller stakes at the time than I think you will, I'd play DD two cycles generally, and most DD sessions were 15-30 minutes. Also sticking to shoes, in terms of longevity only, is the better play generally in LV. I know a local AP who avoids the best game on paper at every store.

Quote: mcallister3200

I would add that leaving after showing spread once not realistic for DD (unless other places in quick walking distance, hint) to get any time in, it makes the shoe a better game for you most places. When I lived in LV, playing slightly smaller stakes at the time than I think you will, I'd play DD two cycles generally, and most DD sessions were 15-30 minutes. Also sticking to shoes, in terms of longevity only, is the better play generally in LV. I know a local AP who avoids the best game on paper at every store.

mcallister i will play strictly shoes. I never say id play pitch games as they are mostly counter traps and like you said would be nearly im;possible to get any time in. I would also get flyered pretty quickly if i kept wonging out and starting at new table as the count rises and drops quickly in pitch which of course you and others already know.

So what do you suggest? Im trying to get in at least 30 min of play time whether backcounting, playing off the top, etc per casino so i can get a good average amount of hours a year to make it worth it. At the same time i also want to fly under the radar.

Leaving after showing my spread once while also capping my trips to one hour, i dont think i will average 45 minutes of play time in the long run PER CASINO. Might just use one part of the criteria, either show spread once and leave or cap to one hour every trip and leave regardless of how many times i show my spread.

You still haven't answered my question by the way. Did you leave after showing half of your spread or only when you showed your FULL SPREAD? What about wong outs? Did you wong out? And if you did, did you leave immediately after one wong out? You mention two cycles, but not sure exactly if you did play all or wonging out.

One of the few times I was asked to leave was with a $5 to $50 spread. I could have been making more money on the 25-cent deuces wild machine. Very tacky, but it was a good lesson that time spent at the table can bring as much heat as anything else. It took three hours. Now I spread $5 to ~$120 and they give me money and meals. I show a large bet and I'm done. EV is less than $10 (maybe $20 with comps), but I'm in the casino for other reasons, and often takes only 15 minutes ($80 per hour?), so why not?

Haven't seen any props yet, but there is over 58.5 +100 and under 59.5 -105, take whichever one you can, or take both. I ended up with the under

Actually I think the very best way to play if im just going to show my spread once and leave will be to just backcount. As crazy as that sounds, it's actually plausible. To me it looks much less suspicious than some guy playing off the top spreading to two hands, wonging out multiple times at -1 and joining a new table. Actually both strategies might be effective. But the backcounting approach saves you a lot more money, better SCORE, much lower N0, and obviously a much lower ROR. If im going to just show my spread once, why not backcount? The casino will just see a guy standing and watching tables and only see him jump in once. They wont be able to draw any conclusions from that. If im not mistaken, most casinos need 3 shoes showing 'movement with the count' to nail a counter, if i recall correctly from Vinny DeCarlo in his book.

Maybe ill do two wong-ins and cap my sessions to one hour max every time or maybe just jump in as many times as i want and just keep a cap on the sessions to 1 hour. I guess ill adjust accordingly, but to me this seems to be a much better plan and i should be able to get a lot more 'playing time' in since rounds 'observed' count just as if i was playing with a $0 bet or if i was playing at a disadvantage with a higher N0 off the top.

Thoughts anyone on this?

Quote: ZenKinG

So what do you suggest? ........

You still haven't answered my question by the way. Did you leave after showing half of your spread or only when you showed your FULL SPREAD? What about wong outs? Did you wong out? And if you did, did you leave immediately after one wong out? You mention two cycles, but not sure exactly if you did play all or wonging out.

I said it depends. It can even depend on individual personnel or shift in same casino. It might depend on if you're a cocky 25 year old or a 70 year old black female. There's some places you shouldn't play at all, some places you can be more aggressive than you think, not that id pitch a tent anywhere. You're asking for a cookie cutter answer to apply to everything that just doesn't exist. I don't think your plan is too bad, but you're really going to have to figure out what works best for you on your own. And by all means I don't have all the answers either.

Quote: ZenKinG

You always hear about playing short sessions, especially KJ, which I dont know if he even contributes to this forum or any forum anymore. The problem I have is everyone says, to extend longevity in vegas, you want to jump around as much as you want and keep your sessions to 45 minutes to 1 hour and once you show your spread once, leave. Although I agree with that style of play and is going to be a staple of mine while im in vegas, the questions i have are this.

Everyone says once you show your spread. What about when you only show half of your spread say up to +2 or +3? What about when you wong out of negative counts such as -1? Do you leave the store after only one or two wong outs? Isn't wonging out of negative counts, the same as 'showing your spread' and that you should now leave to the next store as well? What do you do if you show half of your spread to +3, do you leave to the next store as well? What about if you wong into a game and once it goes negative, but you never showed your FULL spread? Should you leave?

Not everything is so cut and dry when people say, 'once you show your spread, leave'. Basically what im asking is this. How many wong outs at -1 or showing half of my spread warrants me to leave? What about wong ins? Should I leave after one wong in EVEN if I didnt show my full spread? Obviously after showing my FULL spread I will leave, but what about the other criteria such as half a spread or wonging out of negative counts?

Im trying to extend longevity as much as possible in vegas. I also wont be playing any of the DD counter traps. I will exclusively play shoe games with only the best rules. I already have a decent rotation listed in my document.

Good luck with short sessions. It might work for KJ however from what I understand he has a personal driver. Hopefully you can find a guy or girl who loves you enough to drive you around all day.

Quote: AxelWolf

Good luck with short sessions. It might work for KJ however from what I understand he has a personal driver. Hopefully you can find a guy or girl who loves you enough to drive you around all day.

I already got a strategy for that that i've not seen talked about in an open forum. Good luck trying to track me through license plate software.

Quote: ZenKinG

I already got a strategy for that that i've not seen talked about in an open forum. Good luck trying to track me through license plate software.

For some reason I don't think that is what he was inferring.

Quote: MaxPen

For some reason I don't think that is what he was inferring.

Ya, I'm not sure how a driver would help avoid license plate detection unless they were dropping you off down the street or whatever. If it gets to that point you're FKed anyways. To this day I only know of 2 cases where someone was possibly spotted entering the casino. I doubt it had anything to do with their vehicle and more to do with someone just happening to notice and remember them.

No one ever calculates driving around from casino to casino in stop and go traffic, finding parking spots, getting in and out of your car after buckling and unbuckling, grabbing your cell phone from the charger, waiting for elevators, walking through parking lots and casinos, all while in the blistering 110 degree summers. We hit up 3 locations last night and it seemed like we spent 90 minutes in the car.

You can't really come up with a plan if you know (relatively) nothing about LV....or at least what you need to know. Not going to learn it reading on forums, CBJN, or even talking to someone personally.

Your plan may sound good on paper. But once you realize you underestimated driving time & miscellaneous time (finding parking, walking to from/parking lot, waiting for a fresh shoe, or you just drove 30 minutes to a casino with no open seats or the entire pit is closed), overestimated the amount of time or rounds/hour you'll be getting in, overestimating a spread or ramp you can get away with, perhaps not understanding once you see the same boss 3 times in 2 months he's gonna at least recognize you....or how you're going to react to major heat (are you gonna go across the street and play at the next store and continue churning in the hours, or are you going to "lay low" for a little while?), or a multitude of other things you may think are totally stupid, irrelevant, or stuff that you've got covered......it's very likely the plan you originally came up with is going to morph into something totally different, over time (or very quickly, if you figure out your plan won't work).


My advice:

Do what feels best when in a casino. If there's a player or 2 at a fresh shoe, observe the first few rounds. If it's negative, go check out another or go for a walk. If it's neutral or positive, sit down. Don't use BC as a way to jump into big +EV shoes, but as a way to minimize the need or desire to wong-out early in a potentially negative shoe. IOW: You're not looking for a good shoe, just avoiding some of the bad shoes. Think of yourself as observing the table for a few rounds before sitting down, like a ploppy might do (and if he doesn't like "the flow of the cards" he finds another table).

Don't raise bets late in a shoe if youre only gonna get a few rounds in. Best to wait for the "golden shoe" that turns positive early and you can bet big through out. Don't "waste" showing your spread if it's only for a few rounds at the end of a shoe.

Observe what kinda action others are laying down in a casino. See how dealers react to different buy-ins. Does he visually inspect each $100 bill, then call for verification when shipping $100 in red? Or does he throw $500 down quickly (like he's used to it), cut out $500 in green, and yell "shipping 5 boss" while pushing the chips to the player?

Sim a bunch of different games with a bunch of different spreads. If your "base" spread is $25 to $300, then also sim $10 to $150 and $25 to $500 and $25 to $150 and whatever else in between. Then while playing, you can make the spread you think fits the situation best....or perhaps not even sitting down (or just getting up & leaving) is the best option instead.


Ultimately, there's no "one size fits all". Lots of people make it seem like you just go in, grind out some hands, go to another casino, rinse wash repeat. But that's not what it's like at all. Everything is constantly changing and you WILL have to make a decision on the fly. If you have 1 plan and strictly stick to it, you won't do well. It's a cat and mouse game, after all.

Zen, where are you staying?

Quote: RS

You can't really come up with a plan if you know (relatively) nothing about LV....or at least what you need to know. Not going to learn it reading on forums, CBJN, or even talking to someone personally.

Your plan may sound good on paper. But once you realize you underestimated driving time & miscellaneous time (finding parking, walking to from/parking lot, waiting for a fresh shoe, or you just drove 30 minutes to a casino with no open seats or the entire pit is closed), overestimated the amount of time or rounds/hour you'll be getting in, overestimating a spread or ramp you can get away with, perhaps not understanding once you see the same boss 3 times in 2 months he's gonna at least recognize you....or how you're going to react to major heat (are you gonna go across the street and play at the next store and continue churning in the hours, or are you going to "lay low" for a little while?), or a multitude of other things you may think are totally stupid, irrelevant, or stuff that you've got covered......it's very likely the plan you originally came up with is going to morph into something totally different, over time (or very quickly, if you figure out your plan won't work).


My advice:

Do what feels best when in a casino. If there's a player or 2 at a fresh shoe, observe the first few rounds. If it's negative, go check out another or go for a walk. If it's neutral or positive, sit down. Don't use BC as a way to jump into big +EV shoes, but as a way to minimize the need or desire to wong-out early in a potentially negative shoe. IOW: You're not looking for a good shoe, just avoiding some of the bad shoes. Think of yourself as observing the table for a few rounds before sitting down, like a ploppy might do (and if he doesn't like "the flow of the cards" he finds another table).

Don't raise bets late in a shoe if youre only gonna get a few rounds in. Best to wait for the "golden shoe" that turns positive early and you can bet big through out. Don't "waste" showing your spread if it's only for a few rounds at the end of a shoe.

Observe what kinda action others are laying down in a casino. See how dealers react to different buy-ins. Does he visually inspect each $100 bill, then call for verification when shipping $100 in red? Or does he throw $500 down quickly (like he's used to it), cut out $500 in green, and yell "shipping 5 boss" while pushing the chips to the player?

Sim a bunch of different games with a bunch of different spreads. If your "base" spread is $25 to $300, then also sim $10 to $150 and $25 to $500 and $25 to $150 and whatever else in between. Then while playing, you can make the spread you think fits the situation best....or perhaps not even sitting down (or just getting up & leaving) is the best option instead.


Ultimately, there's no "one size fits all". Lots of people make it seem like you just go in, grind out some hands, go to another casino, rinse wash repeat. But that's not what it's like at all. Everything is constantly changing and you WILL have to make a decision on the fly. If you have 1 plan and strictly stick to it, you won't do well. It's a cat and mouse game, after all.

First of all rds per hour is a very subjective matter, it all depends on how you want to calculate it. For me the way i was calculating it was by hours not rounds. So for example I would stay one hour at a casino, but only count 45 minute of play time at 100 rounds an hour rather than 1 hour of play time at 70-80 rounds per hour. The reason i only count 45 minutes is to account for the off-time which I guess would be about 15 minutes of walking around and finding a new table to backcount, etc. Get it? It seems everyone else does the opposite way and just go by hours in a casino and then take rounds from that. Doing it my way, I can then just take those 45 minutes, which is an estimate just like everything else in blackjack, we do the best we can, and then multiply by 7 casinos for the day which gives me 4.5 hours of ACTUAL PLAY TIME for the day. 4.5 hours a day 6 days a week is 27 hours a week * 52 weeks gives me 1404 hours a year in CVCX at 100 rounds an hour. That's how im going to base my EV off of. I will also try to get a stopwatch perhaps to try and get a more accurate time when im actual backcounting and when im not. Maybe it will end up being 35-40 minutes, and 20-25 min of off time walking around and finding a table.

Quote: ZenKinG

I will also try to get a stopwatch.

That won't look suspicious.

Pitboss - Sir, we are going to have to back you off for timing how many hands you are back counting an hour. Lol

Joking aside hands per hour is really important for a counter.

Quote: BW21

Pitboss - Sir, we are going to have to back you off for timing how many hands you are back counting an hour. Lol

Joking aside hands per hour is really important for a counter.

Funny you mention that because i was thinking of getting not a stopwatch anymore but a tally counter type wristband or soemthing to keep track of every round played. The problem is I started to think they might say im using a device to play the game and convict me of cheating and possibly get me a felony charge in the long run depending if the casino likes me or not.

Counting rounds while you're counting should not be difficult for a full time (or near full time) counter unless tracking multiple tables. Or just use the pen and number of players playing, penetration, and multiply by avg number of cards per round.

Quote: ZenKinG

Funny you mention that because i was thinking of getting not a stopwatch anymore but a tally counter type wristband or soemthing to keep track of every round played. The problem is I started to think they might say im using a device to play the game and convict me of cheating and possibly get me a felony charge in the long run depending if the casino likes me or not.

That's one of your funniest posts to date.
Why not buy one of these.