Common Sense or Get Lost.
Time:
If you spend one hour sitting at a BJ table playing BJ: that is one hour of work.
If you spend one hour prancing around a BJ pit wonging in every now and then; that is one hour of work.
If you sit at a slot machine for "cover" then that time is work time.
If you walk/bike/drive/ride for one hour, that is commuting time.
If you practice at home your deception skills, that is work time just the same as if you retired to your freebie room and practiced wig-changing or the like.
Your meals are an expense, not income.
Your "free" rooms are not income. Go home, feed the cat, sleep in the bed you already paid for or sleep in the 'comped' room as you choose, but don't call it income.
Your dry cleaning bills are an expense whether you clean your casino clothes or your golf clothes.
If your 'cover' necessitates other gambling activities, your income meter is running bakwards.
If you are retired and grinding away a pension check since you don't have any hobbies, an hour of your time is just as much an hour of your time as if you are busy and would otherwise be earning money at a car wash.
If you can't be honest with yourself; at least try to be honest with us.
Quote: RSNow I'm confused.
Confucius say what
*is it impolite to indicate doubt?
*are such claims worth making if they are unverifiable?
*do those who say "well, our *team* made 6 figures" qualify as intolerable traitors to the cause?
I don't think Fleastiff is wrong to express doubt, perhaps impolite LOL.
Certainly APs would not be the first people I've met to talk about how much their self-owned enterprise grossed and allow it to be thought of as "how much they made". I get that all the time.
You forgot to ask about sitting in the back room. However, that could be some serious +EV.Quote: FleaStiffLet us have some common sense here with this Advantage Play stuff, else quit your bragging and get lost.
Time:
If you spend one hour sitting at a BJ table playing BJ: that is one hour of work.
If you spend one hour prancing around a BJ pit wonging in every now and then; that is one hour of work.
If you sit at a slot machine for "cover" then that time is work time.
If you walk/bike/drive/ride for one hour, that is commuting time.
If you practice at home your deception skills, that is work time just the same as if you retired to your freebie room and practiced wig-changing or the like.
Your meals are an expense, not income.
Your "free" rooms are not income. Go home, feed the cat, sleep in the bed you already paid for or sleep in the 'comped' room as you choose, but don't call it income.
Your dry cleaning bills are an expense whether you clean your casino clothes or your golf clothes.
If your 'cover' necessitates other gambling activities, your income meter is running bakwards.
If you are retired and grinding away a pension check since you don't have any hobbies, an hour of your time is just as much an hour of your time as if you are busy and would otherwise be earning money at a car wash.
If you can't be honest with yourself; at least try to be honest with us.
If the casino offers you a Free TV, Ipad, cruise, boxing tickets, shopping sprees or a laptop that you didn't expect after already making money on a play, how do you calculate that?
If you're sitting at home watching the games, how do you calculate that?
If you're sitting in a strip club daily for a few months at the bar having a drink and making money on a machine, how do you calculate that?
If someone is sitting at home for months watching their favorite TV show and your woman brings you ice cream (or whatever you like) while you are auto spinning on an internet casino slot machine and making money, how do you calculate that?
Sounds crazy but none of that is fiction.
Many people have long commutes to work and back.
People spend money on expensive business clothing. They might have to attend business dinners or whatever.
People might have work expenses and spend extra work time they do or don't count.
What happened was that the PAR sheets put out by the game manufacturer (one of the top 3 companies) listed the actual house edge (that a skilled player would get) and the suggested RTP for marketing and other internal purposes. The suggested RTP was always 4% below the actual return for skilled play. So, on full pay JOB (actual RTP = 99.5439%), the suggested RTP was 95.5439%. The PAR sheet actually said this - to four decimal digits! The gaming commission for the tribe *required* the casino to use the suggested RTP for all of its marketing. At 95.54% for JOB, giving back 6x points (1.5%) still leaves plenty of room for casino profit. So the casino, based on the requirements of the tribe, was marketing their VP in this way. The casino did not realize the vulnerability this created. I saw it immediately and pointed it out to casino management. I am not sure if, how or when they fixed it, that was none of my business. What I do know is that the GM of the casino was fired within a month after I left.
Along the way a few people made a lot of money.
Professional VP players can tell you many stories like this. But they won't. There is no upside for them in giving away such information.
Quote: teliotThere were teams of APs camped out in motor homes in the parking lot who would come in on Tuesdays and Thursdays and play for 12 hours straight each day. This went on for a very long time - one team was there for over 10 months. I was called in to tell the casino what was going on.
WHAT? Tu and Th camp outs for ten months ... and they need a numbers guy to tell them about those RVs in their parking lot?
>Professional VP players can tell you many stories like this. But they won't.
>There is no upside for them in giving away such information.
Well, there is considerable upside, or at least imagined upside, if those Professional VP players are talking with young attractive females, but absent that factor, I think you are right. Why risk ruining a good thing. Keep your mouth shut. Although I still recall that bar that was forced to rig its machines for ultra high payouts and all these teams showed up, but mostly locals on their lunch hours won.
Certainly a comped room can save someone from a financially devestating DUI but if you've already paid for your home in Vegas, what real benefit does it confer?
I posted the thread mainly because I was upset about some of these claims of unimaginably high income per hour and then I find out they are counting as income accounting entries for sosmething called EV opportunities.
I assumed they paid you for this?Quote: teliotHere is a specific example. About four years ago there was a casino in Arizona that offered 3x points on video poker on Tuesdays and Thursdays from noon to midnight. They offered an additional 3x points if you were in their top tier. A point was worth 0.25%. Their VP was set at full pay (99.5% and up - some games over 100%) and there were plenty of high-denominations machines to go around. There was even a full-pay blackjack game (1D, DOA, H17, BJ3:2, RTP = 99.82%) in the bar area you could bet $25/hand. There were teams of APs camped out in the parking lot who would come in on Tuesdays and Thursdays and play for 12 hours straight each day. This went on for a very long time. I was called in to tell the casino what was going on.
What happened was that the PAR sheets put out by the game manufacturer (one of the top 3 companies) listed the actual house edge (that a skilled player would get) and the suggested RTP for marketing and other internal purposes. The suggested RTP was always 4% below the actual return for skilled play. So, on full pay JOB (actual RTP = 99.5439%), the suggested RTP was 95.5439%. The PAR sheet actually said this - to four decimal digits! The gaming commission for the tribe *required* the casino to use the suggested RTP for all of its marketing. At 95.54%, giving back 6x points (1.5%) still leaves plenty of room for casino profit. So the casino, based on the requirements of the tribe, was marketing their VP in this way. The casino did not realize the vulnerability this created. I saw it immediately and pointed it out to casino management. I am not sure if, how or when they fixed it, that was none of my business. What I do know is that the GM of the casino was fired within a month after I left.
Along the way a few people made a lot of money.
Yet all they had to do is go here https://wizardofodds.com/.
That's the casinos problem, they spend way too much on game protection instead of just hiring someone with common sense in the first place.
Eliot: "There were teams of APs camped out in the parking lot who would come in on Tuesdays and Thursdays and play for 12 hours straight each day. This went on for a very long time." I can't imagine it takes the most advanced investigation to see a problem there. Their own greed blinds them. They really thought 3x-6x points was the golden draw for high limit machine player.
Yes. The team was not doing anything other than lawfully playing games following the house rules - games that had an assumed house edge of several percentage points. No one in the casino or on the tribal gaming commission knew what they were doing.Quote: FleaStiffWHAT? Tu and Th camp outs for ten months ... and they need a numbers guy to tell them about those RVs in their parking lot?.
Look, if you just back off a team like that then they will just tell their friends who will show up a few days later and do the same thing. And so on. Until you know what the problem is, it does little good to back people off. The problem was the tribal gaming commission's weak understanding of the mathematics of casino games and their over-reliance on the faulty documentation provided by the gaming manufacturer. Once that was clarified, meaningful action could be taken.
A simple weekly reminder and sign in the gaming supervisors areas saying "DON'T LET GREED BLIND YOU" would save casinos millions and the cost of extravagant game protection. Spend that money on watching for internal theft and save some serious losses.Quote: FleaStiffOkay, I guess its not as all black and white as I tried to imply.
Certainly a comped room can savve someone from a financially devestating DUI but if you've already paid for your home in Vegas, what real benefit does it confer?
I posted the thread mainly because I was upset about some of these claims of unimaginably high income per hour and then I find out they are counting as income accounting entries for something called EV opportunities.
Axel, after years together on this board, I just want to point out that this is the first time you have addressed me directly and in a polite fashion. Thank you.Quote: AxelWolfEliot: "There were teams of APs camped out in the parking lot who would come in on Tuesdays and Thursdays and play for 12 hours straight each day. This went on for a very long time." I can't imagine it takes the most advanced investigation to see a problem there. Their own greed blinds them. They really thought 3x-6x points was the golden draw for high limit machine player.
They knew there was a problem. They just had no idea what it was. If marketing and management *know* that the house edge is roughly 4% on a game and they *know* their points only give back 1.5%, how can they possibly think that the points are the problem?
On the same property, their director of table games was a dual-rate who was promoted a few months earlier and had no experience running table games other than what she received by virtue of her employment there. Table games had the house edge for blackjack (the table game) set at 3% in their software for purposes of computing player's t-win. I told her that the value was insane and could be easily exploited. We opened the software together and she had no idea how to use it or how to set the assumed house edge to a reasonable value. So we called up marketing. They said that they also had no idea, that the system came that way with 3% as the default setting. Marketing then called the manufacturer who told them they would have to send a rep. out to their property to manually change the value, at the casino's expense. Marketing stated they didn't want to incur that expense, so the value would be left at 3%.
Stories like these are exactly why Las Vegas is one of the last places anyone should go for highly profitable advantage play.
The moral of the stories being that the most profitable opportunities are when people make mistakes, not when there's something wrong with the games themselves. It's rare that a meaningfully-exploitable game gets onto the floor. It's far more likely that the human operators make a meaningfully-exploitable mistake in operating that game. Card counting is the result of an inherent defect in blackjack, but hole carding in poker-style games is the result of is human error. So is offering 2-to-1 naturals as a promotion in blackjack when you really meant to offer 2-to-1 suited naturals (one of my prior cases). The DTG was scratching his head as to why their tables were dumping. Of course this didn't happen in Vegas, it happened in a remote tribal gaming location with only a few tables.Quote: teliotStories like these are exactly why Las Vegas is one of the last places anyone should go for highly profitable advantage play.
Quote: MathExtremistThe moral of the stories being that the most profitable opportunities are when people make mistakes, not when there's something wrong with the games themselves. It's rare that a meaningfully-exploitable game gets onto the floor. It's far more likely that the human operators make a meaningfully-exploitable mistake in operating that game. Card counting is the result of an inherent defect in blackjack, but hole carding in poker-style games is the result of is human error. So is offering 2-to-1 naturals as a promotion in blackjack when you really meant to offer 2-to-1 suited naturals (one of my prior cases). The DTG was scratching his head as to why their tables were dumping. Of course this didn't happen in Vegas, it happened in a remote tribal gaming location with only a few tables.
Beating the games and beating the casinos are two different things. It may sound like figuring out how to beat a game ia more lucrative because you could do it anywhere. I find it is the opposite. For one thing games are vetted so well in advance it is difficult to exploit them. Secondly if a glitch or loophole is found the problem will most likely be fixed universally
Human error that leads to e exploitable ap play will most likely be fixed only locally. Like that 6x points example above those employees are not going to call other casinos to fix a similar mistake. And yes human error happens more often than you think. Many times humans make the same mistakes over and over
Does a mcdonalds worker making $10 an hour tell everyone his income is only $8 an hour because he factors in the hours speng traveling to work. Yes it is time devoted to the business he handles but it has to be kept separate from your income per hour calculations
Many hours are put into scouting, researching, networking, practicing, testing, doing the math, traveling, etc. Typically, at least for me, a small amount of all of it is actually playing.
Yes, plays come up that seem to be worth huge amounts ($500+/hour), but they're really not as great as it seems. You typically can't sit and play such a game for 8 hours a day, day in and day out (with consistency). You might only get a few hours on such a play every month.
It's expected among APs that if we say a play is worth $X/hour, we're not including travel research practice etc into it. It's also expected that APs aren't playing 8 hours a day every day, if they're talking about plays that are worth more than $40/hour or so.
I don't know anyone who claims comps food rooms etc. as part of their income. Although, an argument can be made that you can add it to your income. As the ancient Hawaiians used to say, "saving a penny is like making a penny".
I've also never heard a regular working job person take expenses out of their income. My friend doesn't say, "I make $80k/year in my job.....but I also have to pay $15,000 in rent, $3k on car, $5000 on medical, $2500 on phone cable internet, and $2500 in food.....so I'm really just making $57k a year with my job. Include commute time (1.5 hours/day x 5 days a week x 50 weeks), that's $24/hour!"
I think most people spend most of their income, aside from the little savings they do.
A husband and wife dealer team used to blog about dealing in different states. And a single, adventuresome woman used to blog about "traveling dealers" and the lifestyle aboard cruise ships.Quote: darkozBeating the games and beating the casinos are two different things.
Human error that leads to e exploitable ap play will most likely be fixed only locally.
Its in such blogs that one learns the difference between Sin City and the Land of Disenchantment. It was particularly in New Mexico that Manana became so prevalent at every suggestion for change. When a casino is geographically isolated from major markets it might have to experiment a bit. When no one really knows how to experiment with change, its easy to do it wrong.
I don't know why he was fired.Quote: supergrassIt's way too harsh to fire the GM just because a mistake in 1 type of video poker.
Your word "likely" is accurate. For example, collusion (information sharing) at certain table games can be quite lucrative. Collusion is like card counting, it's built into the game and you have to take extraordinary measures to prevent it from happening. A good example is Caribbean Stud - teams have been beating it for 30 years.Quote: MathExtremistIt's far more likely that the human operators make a meaningfully-exploitable mistake in operating that game.
Wrong and wrong. Have you read my book on this topic?Quote: darkozFor one thing games are vetted so well in advance it is difficult to exploit them. Secondly if a glitch or loophole is found the problem will most likely be fixed universally
The law makes a distinction between commuting from your home and driving for work. From a tax standpoint, you can deduct miles driven for travel between client sites (or in the case of AP, different casinos) but you can't deduct miles driven between your home and the first or last place you worked that day. If moving from place to place is part of the job, which it is (or can be) for AP, then you're still working when you drive from one casino to the next. No different than a realtor. That's why realtors get to deduct their car leases. Which, by the way, means that an AP should be able to do the same thing.Quote: darkozI dont think commuting time can be deducted from your income per hour. I dont kno anyone who does that in the traditional workplace
Does a mcdonalds worker making $10 an hour tell everyone his income is only $8 an hour because he factors in the hours speng traveling to work. Yes it is time devoted to the business he handles but it has to be kept separate from your income per hour calculations
Of course, that means you need to file the proper tax returns...
But then again, that's from a tax standpoint, not an income standpoint.
My billable hours aren't 100% of the total hours I spend on my job either. That's why I find a good measure of performance to be average hourly rate. Total income divided by total hours required to earn that income. If you're earning $100k in 1000 hours of total effort over a year (including all the tasks you listed above) then your average rate is $100/hour. Obviously that hourly rate isn't as high as your marginal hourly rate when you've found some play that's worth a fixed $200 in a fixed 5 minutes. That's technically $2400/hour, but hourly rates aren't a good way to measure such finite investments anyway. AP is different from most consulting jobs in that APs don't get to set their rates, though. You find the plays and they're worth what they're worth.Quote: RSI think there may be a disconnect between FleaStiff and APs who say what their hourly rate was on a play.
Many hours are put into scouting, researching, networking, practicing, testing, doing the math, traveling, etc. Typically, at least for me, a small amount of all of it is actually playing.
Yes, plays come up that seem to be worth huge amounts ($500+/hour), but they're really not as great as it seems. You typically can't sit and play such a game for 8 hours a day, day in and day out (with consistency). You might only get a few hours on such a play every month.
It's expected among APs that if we say a play is worth $X/hour, we're not including travel research practice etc into it. It's also expected that APs aren't playing 8 hours a day every day, if they're talking about plays that are worth more than $40/hour or so.
It might be useful to evaluate how efficient you are in terms of earning hours vs. total hours. Attorneys tend to shoot for >70%, but there's always time spent on tasks like writing journal articles, trying to close new business, or dealing with IT when your printer stops working. Product development is the same way -- I've spent countless hours over the past six months working on one project alone -- it'll pay off if it comes together, but I haven't earned a penny from those hours yet.
What do you think is a good target for APs to shoot for? You say it's a small amount -- is it less than 25%?
I'm pretty sure that's inaccurate. I also believe that if you have a home office as your principle place of work (as I do) than any driving you do in the course of business is deductible. You should look into it, you might be able to deduct *all* of the driving you do in pursuit of income.Quote: RSI'm not all up on the tax code and all that and probably never will be. But my accountant told me I could deduct $0.55/mile when traveling at least 50(?) miles from my residence, as well as food and other stuff. But if it's within that radius, then no food and no mileage deductions can be made.
Edit:
Quote: IRSDaily transportation expenses you incur while traveling from home to one or more regular places of business are generally nondeductible commuting expenses. However, there may be exceptions to this general rule. You can deduct daily transportation expenses incurred going between your residence and a temporary work station outside the metropolitan area where you live. Also, daily transportation expenses can be deducted if: (1) you have one or more regular work locations away from your residence or (2) your residence is your principal place of business and you incur expenses going between the residence and another work location in the same trade or business, regardless of whether the work is temporary or permanent and regardless of the distance.
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p463/ch04.html
Quote: MathExtremistMy billable hours aren't 100% of the total hours I spend on my job either. That's why I find a good measure of performance to be average hourly rate. Total income divided by total hours required to earn that income. If you're earning $100k in 1000 hours of total effort over a year (including all the tasks you listed above) then your average rate is $100/hour. Obviously that hourly rate isn't as high as your marginal hourly rate when you've found some play that's worth a fixed $200 in a fixed 5 minutes. That's technically $2400/hour, but hourly rates aren't a good way to measure such finite investments anyway. AP is different from most consulting jobs in that APs don't get to set their rates, though. You find the plays and they're worth what they're worth.
It might be useful to evaluate how efficient you are in terms of earning hours vs. total hours. Attorneys tend to shoot for >70%, but there's always time spent on tasks like writing journal articles, trying to close new business, or dealing with IT when your printer stops working. Product development is the same way -- I've spent countless hours over the past six months working on one project alone -- it'll pay off if it comes together, but I haven't earned a penny from those hours yet.
What do you think is a good target for APs to shoot for? You say it's a small amount -- is it less than 25%?
If I understand the question properly, you're asking what % of the time is it actually playing versus everything else? I really have no idea, unfortunately. Depending on the types of plays you're on, at least for me, I'd think 25% is high. I would guess 10-15% for me.
When a new play starts up, I probably spend at least 5-10 hours just figuring out the best way to play it. Comparing overall EV, hourly, variance, probability of actually winning, heat, expenses, if we'll actually get paid or have to call gaming. Lots of phone calls, emails, texts back and forth. Figuring out how much everyone is going to invest and who's going to play.
One of the last "big" plays I was on, I think I spent 3 days scouting, 15 hours comparing all the different games, was out of town for 7 days for the whole thing.....and played 45 minutes to an hour (but that one hour was worth like $14k IIRC).
Sometimes there are down or slow periods where not much is really happening. I probably do more of the non-playing stuff than many other APs. Not sure how many times I've found something that looked like it coulda been beatable, spent 15-20 hours working on it, just to figure out it's no good or not worth the time/energy/etc. to play it.
I don't think it's a matter of efficiency. Or worded better, that you shouldn't try increase the play vs total work time, if you're sacrificing that valuable research/etc. work time.
Quote: teliotWrong and wrong. Have you read my book on this topic?
I actually did purchase and read your book teliot. Im not mathematically inclined enough to have absorbed it all. It was more like if player does this then (skip algebraic formula for 2 pages) then the player has (skip formulaic integers for page and half) results in something numeric
Sorry thats how a non mathematically inclined ap saw it. I did like the prose parts though
Quote: MathExtremistMy billable hours aren't 100% of the total hours I spend on my job either. That's why I find a good measure of performance to be average hourly rate. Total income divided by total hours required to earn that income. If you're earning $100k in 1000 hours of total effort over a year (including all the tasks you listed above) then your average rate is $100/hour. Obviously that hourly rate isn't as high as your marginal hourly rate when you've found some play that's worth a fixed $200 in a fixed 5 minutes. That's technically $2400/hour, but hourly rates aren't a good way to measure such finite investments anyway. AP is different from most consulting jobs in that APs don't get to set their rates, though. You find the plays and they're worth what they're worth.
It might be useful to evaluate how efficient you are in terms of earning hours vs. total hours. Attorneys tend to shoot for >70%, but there's always time spent on tasks like writing journal articles, trying to close new business, or dealing with IT when your printer stops working. Product development is the same way -- I've spent countless hours over the past six months working on one project alone -- it'll pay off if it comes together, but I haven't earned a penny from those hours yet.
What do you think is a good target for APs to shoot for? You say it's a small amount -- is it less than 25%?
When I set up my home office the city planner wanted to know how much of my home I'd be using for work. I said "100%, after all, it's just a one bedroom condo" thinking I may be able to write off that much of my mortgage in the future. Doesn't work that way. I'm hoping you'll tell me it does? :D
It must be the holiday spirit. Perhaps I can dig deep and even be polite to Dan.Quote: teliotAxel, after years together on this board, I just want to point out that this is the first time you have addressed me directly and in a polite fashion. Thank you.
Nope, sorry. The only way you can write off home office costs is if you have a home office that's not used for non-business purposes. Also taking a home office deduction is a *huge* red flag to the IRS. And you can already write off the entire mortgage interest for your house so the only thing the home office deduction gets you is a further writeoff for the fraction of principal. If you look into it, it's usually not worth it. Often it's more valuable to write off the fraction of your utilities that go to the home office (if you work at home) rather than the square footage itself. But ask a tax adviser, everyone's situation is different. I finally have a proper home office instead of a desk in a spare bedroom with a bunch of non-work stuff in the closet, so I may file for that deduction this year. I never have before.Quote: RogerKintWhen I set up my home office the city planner wanted to know how much of my home I'd be using for work. I said "100%, after all, it's just a one bedroom condo" thinking I may be able to write off that much of my mortgage in the future. Doesn't work that way. I'm hoping you'll tell me it does? :D
But that's totally separate from whether you can deduct miles driving to/from that home office. If your primary place of work is at home, it doesn't matter whether you deduct that square footage on your taxes, you still get to treat driving for business as a business expense. I don't drive for work so it doesn't help me, but if I had clients all over town I'd absolutely be taking the deduction. For 2016 it's 54c/mile. If an AP does all the planning work at home and puts 10,000 miles/year on their car driving from one casino to the next, I think that's a $5400 deduction straight off the top.
Again, this assumes that APs file and pay taxes properly. If someone is cheating on their taxes, I wouldn't think attempting to file for a mileage deduction would be smart...
Story of my life.Quote: odiousgambitI don't think Fleastiff is wrong to express doubt, perhaps impolite LOL.
Quote: teliotHere is a specific example. About four years ago there was a casino in Arizona that offered 3x points on video poker on Tuesdays and Thursdays from noon to midnight. They offered an additional 3x points if you were in their top tier. A point was worth 0.25%. Their VP was set at full pay (99.5% and up - some games over 100%) and there were plenty of high-denominations machines to go around. There was even a full-pay blackjack game (1D, DOA, H17, BJ3:2, RTP = 99.82%) in the bar area you could bet $25/hand. There were teams of APs camped out in motor homes in the parking lot who would come in on Tuesdays and Thursdays and play for 12 hours straight each day. This went on for a very long time - one team was there for over 10 months. I was called in to tell the casino what was going on.
What happened was that the PAR sheets put out by the game manufacturer (one of the top 3 companies) listed the actual house edge (that a skilled player would get) and the suggested RTP for marketing and other internal purposes. The suggested RTP was always 4% below the actual return for skilled play. So, on full pay JOB (actual RTP = 99.5439%), the suggested RTP was 95.5439%. The PAR sheet actually said this - to four decimal digits! The gaming commission for the tribe *required* the casino to use the suggested RTP for all of its marketing. At 95.54% for JOB, giving back 6x points (1.5%) still leaves plenty of room for casino profit. So the casino, based on the requirements of the tribe, was marketing their VP in this way. The casino did not realize the vulnerability this created. I saw it immediately and pointed it out to casino management. I am not sure if, how or when they fixed it, that was none of my business. What I do know is that the GM of the casino was fired within a month after I left.
Along the way a few people made a lot of money.
Professional VP players can tell you many stories like this. But they won't. There is no upside for them in giving away such information.
I've never understood this.
I mean it seems its attractive: hey, guys...lets live in an RV and play in teams... gotta have some sense of an obvious (to them) advantage.
But WHERE is the advantage?
If I had gone in on a Monday with 100 dollars what was my expected return?
If I had waited until Tuesday's noon bell.... what would my have expected return have been?
Was the amount of money due to the DURATION of the offer?
Was the amount of money due to the BET LIMITS?
Was it that they were making 'points' and could then use teh points for free play or food or merchandise???
If its 95.54 percet with one point, it still only works out to 98.54 percent with three points doesnt it??
Quote: FleaStiffI've never understood this. . .
If its 95.54 percent with one point, it still only works out to 98.54 percent with three points doesnt it??
As I understand this thread. 95.54% was what the house assumed would be returned to the average unskilled player. But the promo comp points attracted skilled players, not ploppies. When the players that did turn up were managing 99.54% and getting a few % on to of that as comp value, then the house has messed up.
Did I understand correctly?
Pretty much. I would post one of the PAR sheets (I have a substantial collection of them), but they have a very clear copyright / non-disclosure clause at the bottom. They also date back over a decade, so I am certain that IGT has improved their recommendations in light of some of these unfortunate events.Quote: OnceDearDid I understand correctly?
Nonsense. To begin with, you should have an edge. But you also need to take into consideration the variance, heat, bankroll requirement, team management, travel requirements, preparation time, training, etc.Quote: WatchMeWinPlay to win, not for comps. Pretty straight forward approach.
By the way, it's "straightforward" -- one word. Unless you mean that beating casinos means to play in any casino that is directly in front of you. This can usually be accomplished, but it's certainly not straightforward.
Quote: teliotNonsense. To begin with, you should have an edge. But you also need to take into consideration the variance, heat, bankroll requirement, team management, travel requirements, preparation time, training, etc.
By the way, it's "straightforward" -- one word. Unless you mean that beating casinos means to play in any casino that is directly in front of you. This can usually be accomplished, but it's certainly not straightforward.
Thank you for the correction. Allow me to be str84wrd... Play to win, not for comps. Obviously, when you are playing to win you should have an edge, whatever your edge is. The comps are all fine and dandy, as you should take what they give you and what you've earned.... but don't play just for comps.
Quote: WatchMeWinThank you for the correction. Allow me to be str84wrd... Play to win, not for comps. Obviously, when you are playing to win you should have an edge, whatever your edge is. The comps are all fine and dandy, as you should take what they give you and what you've earned.... but play just for comps.
** Don't plays just for comps***
Edit: fixed it for you. BBB
I'll tell that to Max Rubin and Jean Scott. I am sure they will appreciate your wisdom.Quote: WatchMeWin***Don't plays just for comps***
I am not sure what you include in the category of "comps." But cash back for points and many other cash incentives are considered to be part of the comp program by most casinos. I know many examples of teams and individuals that have crushed casinos purely based on the cash comps they received - beating the games themselves was never part of the equation.
APs will do whatever they can to beat the house. They don't restrict themselves from an opportunity based on some arbitrary maxim.
Maybe WoN can respond.
The Black jack 500,
Each player gets a card and receives one stamp on card for every BJ they get, and 3 for a suited.
No entry fee all BJ tables including Spanish open for tournament.
Players play 3 rounds 2 10-15min breaks in between rounds. I can't remember length of rounds I think the total was almost 3hrs.
Top three get paid 250,175,75
Average number of players 30
This promo was every Tuesday & Thursday
Any Idea's on how I was beating this before the pit scum cheated me and terminated this?
Might be hard to figure without being able to watch it unfold you guys are sharps though so I just
thought I would see what you could come up with before I explain.
Or, Idk.
Quote: beachbumbabsAssuming the tournament was with promo chips, you were counting the sidebet and playing that with real money when it was +ev while grinding their chips on the main game.
Or, Idk.
No promo chips, This is probably unfair given you really would need to see the physical event unfold,
however mb picked a little piece of low hanging fruit.
Edit: this is about beating other players not the game of blackjack.
Quote: rainmanNo promo chips, This is probably unfair given you really would need to see the physical event unfold,
however mb picked a little piece of low hanging fruit.
Edit: this is about beating other players not the game of blackjack.
So, this a promotional tournament in which you used a certain number of starting play chips given by tournament director, and everyone else had the same starting amount ? The object is to get as many stickers on you card via bj and suited bjs? Or is the object to win the most amount of chips in value?
From you descriptions, I am assuming that having the most stickers is the objective of the game in order to win the prizes... although its not clear.
Several tactics would come to my mind:
- Play min bet each hand so you see max number of possible hands increasing you chances for bj.
- Collect stickers from multiple tournaments and put them on one card.
- Collude with other players to get stickers.
- Bribe the dealers giving out the stickers.
