blackjack burnout

New Game at Raving. Basically for 20% you can burn your original third card and get the next card. I am math illiterate , but this seems very countable. I think even with a CSM I would want to burn a 2-6 when doubling 10 versus 7. Or am I missing something ? ? ?

http://www.blackjackburnout.com/

You're not missing anything. A lot of variants have very player friendly rules... That come with a cost. Without looking at the website, I'm gonna bet they instantiate the "Push on Dealer 22" which seems to be the trend. This push when the dealer gets 22 is a big hit to the player, generally more than offsetting rules such the "burn" rule above that you also have to "pay" for.

I would be pretty surprised if now days with all of the qualified mathematicians checking these games missed a rule that put the game at a player edge... So don't assume just because there's one or 2 really good rules that it's a good game.

Quote: Romes

You're not missing anything. A lot of variants have very player friendly rules... That come with a cost. Without looking at the website, I'm gonna bet they instantiate the "Push on Dealer 22" which seems to be the trend.

"Push 22" is not a trend and never will be. Only that SHFL wants you to believe it is. Almost every game invented by Geoff Hall, now under SHFL label, uses this feature, and that SHFL has the patent. Other smart guys will come out with something else.

Nothing on their website indicates anything other than normal blackjack rules. this would not be the 1st game, or 1st place winner, at raving to have faulty math.

Just looked at the web. The math could be right, because this is a side bet, not the original game. There is always an added cost associated with the side bet. In addition, figuring out "20%" or any % of the main bet is taxing the dealer and the game operation.

You have to make the sidebet before you receive your cards. So you are paying 20% ,even for hands that you don't change cards.
This is where the house edge comes from.

Quote: UCivan

Almost every game invented by Geoff Hall, now under SHFL label, uses this feature, and that SHFL has the patent.

I think some new games coming to the show didn't get that memo................

Thats exactly what I would do. Burn 2-6 and hope for a 7 or bigger!!! great strategy!!!

The cool thing about this new "Blackjack Burnout" game is that it doesn't imposed the "Push on Dealer 22" rule!!! How can the house make money on this game?

Quote: Romes

You're not missing anything. A lot of variants have very player friendly rules... That come with a cost. Without looking at the website, I'm gonna bet they instantiate the "Push on Dealer 22" which seems to be the trend. This push when the dealer gets 22 is a big hit to the player, generally more than offsetting rules such the "burn" rule above that you also have to "pay" for.

I would be pretty surprised if now days with all of the qualified mathematicians checking these games missed a rule that put the game at a player edge... So don't assume just because there's one or 2 really good rules that it's a good game.

I believe you have to show proof of Mathematical Analysis when you enter the Table Game of the Year contest. It will be interesting to see how this game plays out. I'm attending the show and can't wait to play this game and others!!!!

Quote: 21CardCounter

I believe you have to show proof of Mathematical Analysis when you enter the Table Game of the Year contest. It will be interesting to see how this game plays out. I'm attending the show and can't wait to play this game and others!!!!

you only have to show you have $3,500 and are willing to pay for it.

Quote: UCivan

you only have to show you have $3,500 and are willing to pay for it.

For what it's worth, they did add the rule that games in the competition need to display verified math. I don't think it needs to be GLI or BMM, but you need something... I'm not really sure what qualifies.

Quote: 21CardCounter

The cool thing about this new "Blackjack Burnout" game is that it doesn't imposed the "Push on Dealer 22" rule!!! How can the house make money on this game?

As I previously mentioned you have to make the bet (20% of your main bet) before you're dealt your hand,so you're paying 20 % every hand whether you need to draw a 3rd card or not.

Quote: Hunterhill

As I previously mentioned you have to make the bet (20% of your main bet) before you're dealt your hand,so you're paying 20 % every hand whether you need to draw a 3rd card or not.

I get it, still a pretty good edge for the player!! I'll pay 20% of my bet to get a second shot at winning!!

I seriously doubt there is an edge for the player.

Quote: 21CardCounter

I get it, still a pretty good edge for the player!! I'll pay 20% of my bet to get a second shot at winning!!

Since you're "21CardCounter", I think you know how (1) not to get 2-6 again as the third card (2) to win with 17 or higher against dealer's any hand. After you have played the game, let us know how it goes.

Is it just me or does this read like the 20% fee only applies if you elect yo burn a card ??

Blackjack Burnout is an innovative way to play Blackjack.

This game allows the player to hit and burn a third card if

the player chooses to do so. By applying the 20% fee in the designated area the player has this option. Once the player burns a card the player must take the next card and proceed with the game. If the player chooses to keep the initial third card the 20% fee is forfeited. This side bet option gives the player a second chance at winning

No it reads like you need to bet the 20% fee before you receive your initial 2 card hand.You then forfeit the fee whether you burn a card or not.

Quote: Hunterhill

No it reads like you need to bet the 20% fee before you receive your initial 2 card hand.You then forfeit the fee whether you burn a card or not.

Correct!!! It reads: You apply the 20% fee before you see your first 2 Cards. Whether you burn a card or not, you forfeit the 20% fee. Now, the layout allows the player to opt out of the 20% and play regular blackjack also.

So, as a blackjack player I can decide to play regular blackjack or put up the 20% fee up front and have the option to burn a card.

Seems to me that blackjack players will put up the 20% whether or not they will need to burn cause the player edge increases dramatically!!!

I've had a quick look (but not double checked my figures) using infinite decks and UK rules (DDAS, S17, ENHC) and get a payback of 117.3% on the BJ bet. Thus you win 17.3c but it costs you 20c for the privilege.

I also get that you split more pairs, presumably because you get the second chance on both hands and doubling is fairly good.

Quote: 21CardCounter

Seems to me that blackjack players will put up the 20% whether or not they will need to burn cause the player edge increases dramatically!!!

Not if Charlie Patrick is correct above....looks like the HE on the game is 2.7% which isn't a "dramatic increase in player edge" from the normal 0.6% - 0.7% they can find at any 3:2 6 Deck Shoe BJ game.

In fact, it looks like their house edge over the player went up four fold if the 2.7% HE Is correct. What does the HE say on the Math Report?

Does the game provide increased variance or excitement or bonus pays to the player in exchange for the increased HE?

Quote: charliepatrick

I've had a quick look (but not double checked my figures) using infinite decks and UK rules (DDAS, S17, ENHC) and get a payback of 117.3% on the BJ bet. Thus you win 17.3c but it costs you 20c for the privilege.

I also get that you split more pairs, presumably because you get the second chance on both hands and doubling is fairly good.

A Hit 2-card 17 (this will be a UK thing that you don't double or split - I'm guessing in US you will).
2 Split A2346789  Hit 16- D 11- 9 d all (soft double everything)
3 Split A2346789  Hit 16- D 12- 9 d all
4 Split A2346789  Hit 16- D 13- 9 d all
5 Split A2346789  Hit 16- D 13- 8 d all
6 Split A2346789T Hit 16- D 14- 8 d all
7 Split A2346789T Hit 16- D 13- 9 d s10-s4
8 Split A2346789  Hit 17- D 11- 9 d s10-s6
9 Split A2346789  Hit 17- D 11-10 d s9 s8
T Split A23---89  Hit 17- D 11-10 h s9 (hit soft 19 rather than double)

Hey all, this is Charles Mousseau here, the mathematician that did the analysis for Blackjack Burnout. I'm normally I'm on the handle CRMousseau but the password reset I need for that account is taking its sweet time, so I connected by Facebook.

As you might expect, I'm also trying to get the product in ship-shape for the show, including promotional materials, so just a couple things about the game not mentioned:

#1) The 20% fee is indeed paid, very much like a collection at an LA style card room. I've recommended this house edge mechanism before on a game that managed some traction in a smaller market. Short of a sidebet with a massive house advantage, a collection is about the only feasible way I could find to allow for some of these massive player advantages that are desired. 20% is, I think, the best shot a collection has. One white for every red, one red for every green. I wouldn't even consider another percentage TBH.

#2) The burnout option may only be exercised on the player's original two card hand -- mostly to keep the player return low enough to fit under a 20% collection, but also to avoid the outrageous pair split strategies that would result -- CharliePatrick's hit and double numbers are bang on, so I've no reason to assume his split numbers are off at all.

With this in mind, of course, the player splits less; the split strat I get from my IDM is:

2s, 3s, 6s: split against 6
4s, 5s, 10s: never split
7s: split against 4-6
8s: split against 2-8
9s: split against 2-6, 8 or 9
Aces: split against 2-T (hit AA against A)

#3) The overall figure I got is a return of 118.29% RTP before factoring in the 20% collection, for a 1.71% house edge. This is probably the best defence, along with a VERY arcane set of count variations AND burnout strategy, against any count-based advantage play.

#4) The burnout strategy is also quite complex, varying by upcard, starting hand AND final hand. Most of the time you are "pulling the trigger" on the burn card when it gives you a stiff or, on occasions, a 17 or even 18 (i.e. when doubling 11 against an ace, if you get a 7, you would be correct to burn it off and try again)

Finally, I will be at Raving to check on this client -- and several others. While I'm clearly too partisan to be a judge, it's always nice to see fruits of game designer's labor in action for the first time.

If anyone wants to say hi, shoot me a PM or a text / phone call [(204) 509 4644] and I'll stop by your booth and see what's what.

Charles.

Quote: Paradigm

Not if Charlie Patrick is correct above....looks like the HE on the game is 2.7% which isn't a "dramatic increase in player edge" from the normal 0.6% - 0.7% they can find at any 3:2 6 Deck Shoe BJ game.

In fact, it looks like their house edge over the player went up four fold if the 2.7% HE Is correct. What does the HE say on the Math Report?

Does the game provide increased variance or excitement or bonus pays to the player in exchange for the increased HE?

I looked into what the game will provide. They responded with an optional sidebar that will be available to the player. This side bet will pay according how many hands the player wins in a row!!!!! Blackjack Burnout is getting more exiting!!!!!

Quote: Paradigm

Not if Charlie Patrick is correct above....looks like the HE on the game is 2.7% which isn't a "dramatic increase in player edge" from the normal 0.6% - 0.7% they can find at any 3:2 6 Deck Shoe BJ game.

In fact, it looks like their house edge over the player went up four fold if the 2.7% HE Is correct. What does the HE say on the Math Report?

Does the game provide increased variance or excitement or bonus pays to the player in exchange for the increased HE?

The biggest benefit the player gets is that they win more often than they lose.

In regular blackjack (per the Wizard) you have a Win-Loss-Push distribution of 43-48-9

With judicious use of the burnout option, in return for paying the fee, your WLT distribution is 50-39-11, translating (roughly) into turning one in every 6 hands from a loss into a win.

Quote: CharlesMousseau

The overall figure I got is a return of 118.29% RTP before factoring in the 20% collection, for a 1.71% house edge.

Hey Charles, this is a lot more reasonable HE than the 2.7% calculated above, but I think it might still be a bit rich and potentially result in too large a hold percentage once the game is in play. There will be some decreased hand speed to reduce the impact of the higher HE and maybe the thrill of swapping out a card will be a good enough "hook" for players.

Switch Hands 21 has a similar 20% fee where you threw back both cards for a fresh two card hand. It did well in the voting as I recall taking 2nd or 3rd Place IIRC. It also got a placement downtown, but I have no idea how the game is doing currently.

Glad you will be at the Show, it has been a long time since we last were in the same room, it will be good to catch up and Harry will be at the Show as well. I am certain I owe you at least a beer ;-).

Quote: Paradigm

Hey Charles, this is a lot more reasonable HE than the 2.7% calculated above, but I think it might still be a bit rich and potentially result in too large a hold percentage once the game is in play. There will be some decreased hand speed to reduce the impact of the higher HE and maybe the thrill of swapping out a card will be a good enough "hook" for players.

Switch Hands 21 has a similar 20% fee where you threw back both cards for a fresh two card hand. It did well in the voting as I recall taking 2nd or 3rd Place IIRC. It also got a placement downtown, but I have no idea how the game is doing currently.

Glad you will be at the Show, it has been a long time since we last were in the same room, it will be good to catch up and Harry will be at the Show as well. I am certain I owe you at least a beer ;-).

Switch Hands 21 was also a client of mine :) and to my recollection it also got some placements in New Jersey, as I recall a few phone calls with the NJGC about potentially placing the game.

And yeah, you are correct, the house edge is a bit on the high side; I think it needs to be a bit high primarily to offset the slower pace of play, and partly because the strategy is relatively straightforward (certainly much easier IMO than, say, Spanish 21). When in doubt, it's always super easy to juice back the players by slightly increasing the natural payouts (suited naturals pay 2:1, etc.)

I look forward to collecting on the beer from you both when I get there!

Quote: 21CardCounter

I looked into what the game will provide. They responded with an optional sidebar that will be available to the player. This side bet will pay according how many hands the player wins in a row!!!!! Blackjack Burnout is getting more exiting!!!!!

I noticed that you registered the day this thread started.
You sound like you are a shill or somehow associated with the game.

Quote: Hunterhill

I noticed that you registered the day this thread started.
You sound like you are a shill or somehow associated with the game.

Actually, it sounds like that to me, too. It's not a bad thing if he is; we have many game inventors here. However, I'd prefer not to be played.


21CC, if you're associated with the game, could you please come out and say so?

Quote: beachbumbabs

Actually, it sounds like that to me, too. It's not a bad thing if he is; we have many game inventors here. However, I'd prefer not to be played.


21CC, if you're associated with the game, could you please come out and say so?

Just a fan...

Quote: 21CardCounter

Just a fan...

Your a fan of a game that doesn't exist on the market yet? How'd you learn about it?

" This game allows the player to hit and burn a third card if

the player chooses to do so. By applying the 20% fee in the designated area the player has this option. Once the player burns a card the player must take the next card and proceed with the game. If the player chooses to keep the initial third card the 20% fee is forfeited. "

Seems this could be worded better ??? Does the player have a choice to keep the third card ? Also not explicit that the 20% fee
had to be paid before the hand starts.

As I understand it, if you (say) make a $5 Blackjack bet then you also put up $1 fee. Similarly it's 20% for other bet sizes.

If you decide to draw a third card (either by hitting or doubling) the fee allows you to discard the third card, whereupon you have to accept the following card instead.

It has subsequently been said, if I understand it correctly, this option only applies to your original two-card hand - so I assume if you split, the option can no longer be invoked on any of the subsequent hands - although this wasn't clear as I also contemplated it might still apply to your first hand (similar to how freebet keeps the real money on the first hand).

The $1 fee is always taken, even if you don't draw a third card or don't invoke the option - although for practical matters of deciding whether a player had made the fee payment or not, it might be easier to leave this until after the end of the hand.

Quote: mrsuit31

Your a fan of a game that doesn't exist on the market yet? How'd you learn about it?

I work in the casino industry and was invited to attend the Cutting Edge show. My associates are Table Games Managers that are always looking for the next big game. So I did a bit of research and saw this game on the Cutting Edge Show website.

Wouldn't it make sense to only place this optional "side wager" on a low count? On a high count, players would most likely not be drawing a third card and isn't the dealer supposed to bust more often? Am off on that? Not an AP here, just my first observation. I wonder if they had an AP report done...

21CC I look forward to seeing you at the show.

Edit: I wrote this before seeing Charles's comment about count based play.

Quote: mrsuit31

Wouldn't it make sense to only place this optional "side wager" on a low count? On a high count, players would most likely not be drawing a third card and the dealer is supposed to bust more often? Am off on that? Not an AP here, just my first observation. I wonder if they had an AP report done...

21CC I look forward to seeing you at the show.

That's true, on a high count you know tens are coming. So why take a hit? Makes sense.