Acender
Acender
Joined: May 21, 2016
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June 23rd, 2016 at 12:19:44 PM permalink
Hello,

Out of curiosity, I've been thinking if there was a viable way to accurately factor the count per deck into the running count. I've read that there are some unbalanced systems that do not need a true count. What systems don't use a true count and how do they substitute it?
Romes
Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
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June 23rd, 2016 at 12:32:50 PM permalink
Hello Acender.

There are in fact unbalanced counts that do not require a true count conversion. I honestly don't know 100% about these systems because I have never used them. I suppose my first question would be why you'd be looking to avoid the conversion? Do you find it too difficult or tasking? I've used Hi/Low for over a decade now and other than a VERY short time frame at the beginning I've never really had to give it much thought. Like most other things it comes down to how much effort you put in while training. If you train with a lot of distractions, and train frequently, then when you head to the casino counting, chatting, or converting the true count are just like breathing. It becomes muscle memory and you don't have to actively "try hard" to do it.

There's no way around the hard work or tasking priorities. By "saving" effort on the true count you're going to be tasked with an unbalanced count and remembering different indexes/etc. Also, when you try to find help online, you'll find things that are off the beaten path don't have many discussions/answers so often you'll be on your own to figure them out. Trust me when I say whatever ease you feel from not converting the true count you're going to pick up as much or more work with these unbalanced systems. There's no way around the work, it's going to happen one way or another =P. I'd recommend taking the true count conversion as it becomes muscle memory with some training and takes no effort at all at that point.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Acender
Acender
Joined: May 21, 2016
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June 23rd, 2016 at 1:04:01 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Hello Acender.

There are in fact unbalanced counts that do not require a true count conversion. I honestly don't know 100% about these systems because I have never used them. I suppose my first question would be why you'd be looking to avoid the conversion? Do you find it too difficult or tasking? I've used Hi/Low for over a decade now and other than a VERY short time frame at the beginning I've never really had to give it much thought. Like most other things it comes down to how much effort you put in while training. If you train with a lot of distractions, and train frequently, then when you head to the casino counting, chatting, or converting the true count are just like breathing. It becomes muscle memory and you don't have to actively "try hard" to do it.

There's no way around the hard work or tasking priorities. By "saving" effort on the true count you're going to be tasked with an unbalanced count and remembering different indexes/etc. Also, when you try to find help online, you'll find things that are off the beaten path don't have many discussions/answers so often you'll be on your own to figure them out. Trust me when I say whatever ease you feel from not converting the true count you're going to pick up as much or more work with these unbalanced systems. There's no way around the work, it's going to happen one way or another =P. I'd recommend taking the true count conversion as it becomes muscle memory with some training and takes no effort at all at that point.



Hi Romes,

I should have guessed people would think I'm having trouble keeping up with the true count but, no, I was just curious from a theory I have relating to a side bet. I've been studying Wong Halves diligently and I'm now to the point where I can count down a 52 card deck in under 30 seconds and I've memorized over 60 index plays.

I bought a discard rack for memorizing where the points are when estimating the count. When I practice I leave music or TV shows running and will have conversations on the phone. When I play now I can keep a conversation going with the dealer without losing count.

I plan on posting a progress thread once I pass some more milestones so keep an eye out!

Finding useful information on card counting is indeed quite perilous. I was starting to give up hope before I read your "A to Z" article and then "Professional Blackjack". I've watched clips of self proclaimed card counters saying things like "play variations are bullshit".

Now as for finding a way around the true count, I'm working on a count for a side bet and it occurred to me that if I could find a way to include the true count in it that it would streamline it a lot more. This isn't a project I'm too serious about but more just to satisfy curiosity. :)
Romes
Romes
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June 23rd, 2016 at 1:06:42 PM permalink
Quote: Acender

...I plan on posting a progress thread once I pass some more milestones so keep an eye out!...

Sounds like you're well on your way and I'm sure people would enjoy hearing about a progress thread... once you've made some progress ;-).

Quote: Acender

Now as for finding a way around the true count, I'm working on a count for a side bet and it occurred to me that if I could find a way to include the true count in it that it would streamline it a lot more. This isn't a project I'm too serious about but more just to satisfy curiosity. :)

I've attacked a bunch of side bets. If you want to discuss a bit further, feel free to PM me and we can talk a bit more about specifics.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Tanko
Tanko
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June 23rd, 2016 at 4:20:03 PM permalink
Quote: Acender

I've read that there are some unbalanced systems that do not need a true count. What systems don't use a true count and how do they substitute it?



Knock Out is an unbalanced count that does not require a true-count conversion.

Depending on the number of decks in the shoe, the count is started at the Initial Running Count (IRC), and decisions are made according to the running count only.

Once the Key Count is reached, the player has the advantage.

For example, a six-deck shoe has an IRC of -20 and a Key Count of -4.

Two decks has an IRC of -4 and a Key Count of +1.

KO vs Hi/Lo Comparison
Acender
Acender
Joined: May 21, 2016
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June 23rd, 2016 at 6:44:32 PM permalink
Thanks! Interesting stuff on that article.

Is the software for generating results available online or are they parameters available for designing an app like that?
Tanko
Tanko
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June 24th, 2016 at 2:36:45 AM permalink
Quote: Acender

Thanks! Interesting stuff on that article.

Is the software for generating results available online or are they parameters available for designing an app like that?



Try CVData
Plato
Plato
Joined: Sep 3, 2015
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June 24th, 2016 at 12:17:14 PM permalink
On the same site as the Hi/Lo versus KO Simulation, if you navigate to the left where there are several black buttons and click on "Blackjack" then "Card Counting Strategies", you will find a list of the most popular counts. The rightmost column defines their type. Those counts that have a "U" are unbalanced.
Acender
Acender
Joined: May 21, 2016
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June 25th, 2016 at 9:15:20 PM permalink
While I have no intention of giving up my Wong Halves I do find the K-O system intriguing and bought a copy of the book.

Are all unbalanced systems designed to not use a true count?

Thanks for all the replies so far~
Plato
Plato
Joined: Sep 3, 2015
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June 26th, 2016 at 12:16:38 AM permalink
Quote: Acender

Are all unbalanced systems designed to not use a true count?



Yes, as it's part of the nature of an unbalanced count. Note though that as far as K-O is concerned, there is an enhancement that can be made whereby you true count K-O. The count does not become balanced, but it takes into account the number of decks in play to give greater accuracy. There is a book by the name of "The Color of Blackjack" by Daniel Dravot which explains the method.

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