Is card counting still meaningful if blackjack pays 1:1?
The card counting edge from high cards (tens and aces) stems from three things:
1. The ability to receive 3:2 on blackjacks, while the dealer receives an even-money win. This 3:2 blackjack bonus favors the player on high counts, and;
2. The likelihood of the dealer busting when hitting a stiff (12-16) also favoring the player on high counts
3. Multiple rounds per shoe, where there are periods of ten and ace-rich deck compositions to bet-raise during a "hot" shoe.
This is why 6:5 blackjacks, even money blackjacks, and CSM (continuous shuffler machines) thwart card counting, and why casinos use them. You basically need a 3:2 game with deep cut card penetration for a good countable game.
Another question, is there even money BJ table in major Vegas casinos?
Quote: WizardofnothingDan do you consult for casinos or just try and create games?
I do not consult. Actually, reducing card counting requires a combination of proper game parameters and good surveillance and pit supervision. Blackjack card counting is the low hanging fruit in game protection. (Install CSM games, check. Install 6:5, check. Supervision took the class and has experience, check. Surveillance is on it, check....)
I mostly design games (with an eye to "before-the-fact" game protection in design). At this point it isn't "try to create game," as I have a lot of games out on the floor.
My focus on game protection is in the design stage, not in the pit, where it is a bit late to implement.
Quote: pokerfaceThanks Dan.
Another question, is there even money BJ table in major Vegas casinos?
Some games like Superfun-21 have even money blackjack, though may give back some AP ability through other game features. There aren't many, there's more 6:5, that seems to be the big thing now.
There may be some BJ variants coming with various low-house-edge features allowed by even-money BJs.
Are you saying it negates it entirely?
Quote: pokerfaceThanks Dan.
Another question, is there even money BJ table in major Vegas casinos?
Some will offer $1 or $2 minimum tables during the slow times of the year that typically pay even money, but go to 6-5 if you bet $5 or more. Sahara was either the first, or the first to promote it heavily.
If you can spread big enough ($1 to $100 or even better $1 to $500) it can be beaten. Takes a lot more than just plus one, minus one. A lot of the edge would come from index plays, especially insurance.
Protect your 3:2 game correctly and there is no need for 6:5. Let the players who can't afford your casino at 3:2 minimum bet levels you require move on to casinos that better fit them.
Encourage counting. Most people can't really do it well enough to make money because they don't put the time in and they will lose thinking they have some kind of advantage. Ban those who really beat your butts through counting; let the masses who try to drink and count keep on losing to you.
Games can have multiple pay tables to adjust game protection and house edge parameters and still be the same game.
Protecting 3:2 blackjack shoe games in a sea of card counters is like protecting a naked virgin at an Al Qaeda training camp, it's a lot of work when a CSM or 6:5 would handle most of the game protection issues.
Don't encourage AP, because a) it isn't an amateur endeavor, and b) it is not gambling, it is a side show. If a casino actually encouraged bad AP play for profit, they'd be committing bad faith malfeasance, and if it got them up against good APs, they'd be fools. It's a no win game to try.
If I had a casino I would offer a $1 min table with fair rules but charge a 25 cent per hand commission. If you bet $10 or more then there would be no commission. I would have something written up encouraging people to bet $10++ explaining the the difference in the percentages. I'm certain it would be very popular and make enough money to justify having it. (is that legal in NV?). People love $1 blackjack, even if they know they are getting raped it's worth it to them for the opportunity to play the game on the cheap. Most of them will bet more than $1. People will also spend money in other areas of the casino.Quote: TomGSome will offer $1 or $2 minimum tables during the slow times of the year that typically pay even money, but go to 6-5 if you bet $5 or more. Sahara was either the first, or the first to promote it heavily.
If you can spread big enough ($1 to $100 or even better $1 to $500) it can be beaten. Takes a lot more than just plus one, minus one. A lot of the edge would come from index plays, especially insurance.
My only concern is that they will lose at such a fantastic rate they might be discouraged to play at normal levels in the future or just think they have bad luck at your casino.
Quote: AxelWolfIf I had a casino I would offer a $1 min table with fair rules but charge a 25 cent per hand commission. If you bet $10 or more then there would be no commission. I would have something written up encouraging people to bet $10++ explaining the the difference in the percentages. I'm certain it would be very popular and make enough money to justify having it. (is that legal in NV?). People love $1 blackjack, even if they know they are getting raped it's worth it to them for the opportunity to play the game on the cheap. Most of them will bet more than $1. People will also spend money in other areas of the casino.
My only concern is that they will lose at such a fantastic rate they might be discouraged to play at normal levels in the future or just think they have bad luck at your casino.
Axel nice try but Foxwoods has been doing this for over 2 years
The table was packed and with so many newbies, I doubt we got 40 hands an hour.
If I remember correct, and it's been years, suited Blackjack paid 2-1, and others paid even money.
A cheap way to start the night.
How is it a nice try?Quote: WizardofnothingAxel nice try but Foxwoods has been doing this for over 2 years
I never said it was a new concept or no one was doing it. I think I have mentioned before that I seen it in AC at the GN where my GF's then 21 year old brother wanted to play it even after I/we begged him to just play $5 or $10 on a normal table. It was a no go, he wanted to play $1 and $2 at a time on BJ. Even though he was willing to play $5 a spin on slots *facepalm.
It has even been discussed that some casinos did/do take a $1 fee on all their games.
I'm just saying I would offer it at my casino or some variant of it, and i dont understand why more casinos don't do it, it seems like a money maker to me.
Plus well, you know, they will play 6/5 even if you won't! It's a business...
How often do you or whomever makes a game, one that they think is AP proof (or whatever you call it) only to then find out they messed up and it gets beaten? Do you know of any such games? Were you yourself involved in them? If so, what have you learned from that?Quote: Paigowdan6:5 is blackjack, 7:5 is blackjack, 3:2 is blackjack, etc.
Games can have multiple pay tables to adjust game protection and house edge parameters and still be the same game.
Protecting 3:2 blackjack shoe games in a sea of card counters is like protecting a naked virgin at an Al Qaeda training camp, it's a lot of work when a CSM or 6:5 would handle most of the game protection issues.
Don't encourage AP, because a) it isn't an amateur endeavor, and b) it is not gambling, it is a side show. If a casino actually encouraged bad AP play for profit, they'd be committing bad faith malfeasance, and if it got them up against good APs, they'd be fools. It's a no win game to try.
What do you do to actually build in game protection? Are you the one who actually does the math and thinks about all the ways one could get an advantage? Can you yourself quickly figure out how to AP a new game you find in a casino? Or at least spot where the potential is. I'm not talking about the run of the mill stuff that everyone knows about.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The big problem you face is most games that are not AP'able are boring especially when making a new game that will catch on (or expensive to run?)
Quote: Paigowdan6:5 is blackjack, 7:5 is blackjack, 3:2 is blackjack, etc.
Games can have multiple pay tables to adjust game protection and house edge parameters and still be the same game.
Of course it is. Of course they do. Some of those "multiple pay tables" are rip-offs.
Quote: PaigowdanProtecting 3:2 blackjack shoe games in a sea of card counters is like protecting a naked virgin at an Al Qaeda training camp, it's a lot of work when a CSM or 6:5 would handle most of the game protection issues.
Use more CSM's on low level games; just keep decent rules. Add some low max bets on the games in between. Drive the APs towards the rest of the tables.
Quote: PaigowdanDon't encourage AP, because a) it isn't an amateur endeavor, and b) it is not gambling, it is a side show. If a casino actually encouraged bad AP play for profit, they'd be committing bad faith malfeasance, and if it got them up against good APs, they'd be fools. It's a no win game to try.
AP is a sideshow? No, it is actually people using their brains to increase their chances of winning.
When I say "encourage" counting, just don't make a big deal out of someone tracking the count if they are not betting well enough to beat you by counting. You can still toss them if they get too good at it.
Quote: AxelWolfHow often do you or whomever makes a game, one that they think is AP proof (or whatever you call it) only to then find out they messed up and it gets beaten? Do you know of any such games?
Yes, many.
Quote: AxelWolfWere you yourself involved in them? If so, what have you learned from that?
I've learned that, in game design, a designer :
a) avoids shoe-based multi-round per shuffle designs unless it is 100% count-neutral; uncountable.
b) avoids collusion-able groupings in single round games; free of collusion.
c) avoids bringing out any face-down cards until they are needed face-up in community board games; free of edge-sorting and hole-carding. and,
....d) through q)
As part of "IAST" methodology.
Quote: AxelwolfWhat do you do to actually build in game protection?
The above checklist plus other tests.
Quote: AxelwolfAre you the one who actually does the math and thinks about all the ways one could get an advantage?
Yes, and followed up by an independent gaming mathematician who specializes in this area; there are several that I use.
Quote: AxelWolfCan you yourself quickly figure out how to AP a new game you find in a casino?
Yes, and I use a number of sources for this.
Quote: AxelWolfOr at least spot where the potential is. I'm not talking about the run of the mill stuff that everyone knows about.
Neither am I.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: AxelWolfThe big problem you face is most games that are not AP'able are boring especially when making a new game that will catch on (or expensive to run?)
No, not necessarily. Keep in mind that games that are exciting to AP players because they are defeat-able are not necessarily the same subset of games that are exciting to regular players who have no such other "pseudo-gambling" agendas.
Also keep in mind that applying game protection technique in design does not mean changing the game's characteristics. UTH plays the same if the dealer presents the flop, turn, and river as it is needed, as opposed to storing the community board face down first, where it can be hole-carded or edge-sorted during play stages. Same with Three Card Poker and a host of other games. These items involve such things as dealing procedure order, not game rules.
They play each hand at a disadvantage, so the more hands they play per hour , the bigger the disadvantage.
Eliminating the need to shuffle eliminates the only time the players are not at a disadvantage.
Quote: Paigowdan
There may be some BJ variants coming with various low-house-edge features allowed by even-money BJs.
Thanks! That's what I am looking into.
Dan was only partially correct... The card counter makes their money from the following blackjack rules:Quote: pokerfaceI understand blackjack payout is one of the reasons for card counting. My question is if blackjack pays 1:1, plain & simply, is it still meaningful to count, assuming all other rules are good for players?
1) The dealer gets even money for blackjacks, where as the player gets 150% of their bet.
2) The player can split or double, putting more money on the table in advantageous situations.
3) The dealer will bust "slightly" more often in good counts.
Blackjack paying even money is a -2.27% disadvantage to the player... https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/
On average, a card counter can expect a 1-2% advantage... So I hope you can see where this is a massive problem. In short, each true count is worth about .5% to the player. At a normal game, let's say -.5% house edge, the counter must wait until a count greater than TC +1 to have the advantage. In THIS game where blackjacks are 1-1 then the house edge is -2.77%, and the counter must wait for a true count of +6 to have an advantage. TC +6 is not a common thing and will not happen very often. so when it does the player would have to jump immediately to their max bet creating all kinds of problems from variance to heat... Jumping from $10 to $200 would certainly raise some eyebrows.
Even money blackjack, or anything not 3:2 for that matter, I personally do NOT consider blackjack. It's a hacked up version that they try to staple the good name of Blackjack on to in order to get suckers to play it under false pretenses that it's a "good game" for the player.
That didn't last long.
Is it good for me? I don't know.
I want to tell them they are idiots.
I also want them to give their money to the casino. I mean somebody got to pay for the place ;-)
But then maybe tomorrow there is no 3:2, only 6:5 available.
Now I'm screwed.
Maybe I will push for lower returns on slots, that's the ticket ;-)
His response was that 6 is bigger than 3.
Quote: billryanI once tried to explain to a player that at $10, he was losing $3 a BJ, which is close to $10 an hour.
His response was that 6 is bigger than 3.
The exact reason why casinos won't put "blackjack pays 2.4 : 2" on the layout.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe exact reason why casinos won't put "blackjack pays 2.4 : 2" on the layout.
6/5 BJ ain't going away. It's growth for the last decade is proof of that fact.
Blackjack BOBS, I hate ploppy term, are not that much different from the so called expert players.
I mean I have talked to so many guys who know more than any BOB, and yet they would never plat " no hole card" BJ.
No way, they would quit first. Rather than split, double down on splits, etc and them lose all because the dealer then has a BJ. OMG, so unfair.
Yet not a whimper about dealer hitting a soft 17.
Which has an edge double that of no peek.
