Minimum Blackjack Game SCORE Desired
Norm - it's been my perception that KewlJ has been quite reticent about his exiting your forum for the most part. He mentioned it a couple times, did not bring the issues here, said a little more when pressed, but did not trash you or go on about it. From your perspective, sensitized to it, you might be feeling defensive, but I think you're exaggerating the amount of trashing you've taken here. Can't speak to anywhere else (other forums).
I also think you escalated/provoked the amount of discussion in detail of the last couple of days. There is going to be more than one side to any disagreement. So, yeah, when you bring it in here, the people who disagree with you are going to make their case. And I expect we'll all get past it, and maybe there's something to be learned by evaluating various expert pov's, so that's some value. But you're welcome to stick around and have the conversation.
This forum has run off plenty of folks who didn't "bow to the math"; very low tolerance for system players, trend believers, gambler's fallacy, and the like, but facts are stubborn things. This issue seems different to me, more like "All roads lead to Rome" than "my way or the highway". There's room for different count strategies, depending on the AP's goals, skills, bankroll, available stores, a dozen other variables known best to you all. So for those who want to get in the weeds for .5 EV, enjoy; just don't let it be a personal attack, either by you or on you.
JMHO. YMMV.
"It's almost not safe to be an artist, the way everybody is randomly picking people to feud with."
- Busta Rhymes
Quote: IbeatyouracesPeace.
You guys really need to stop arguing. It's worse now than the battles with PaiGowDan.
I miss the battles with PaiGowDan.
I'm less sure of how much of an agenda I may have than you are than you are, that's for sure. If I was in a big hurry, I could have printed or published a body of work a month or two ago... There are issues of any salability or marketability, a very tight window on who the work would appeal to in addition to my concerns and apprehensions about where it goes to.
An interesting story, KJ! As you recall, we were having a discussion on hours at the table, getting tired thing and I mentioned something along the lines of my endurance as an individual. Well, a few years back before headed into Vegas I ask Michael Shackleford about meeting up with him while I was there. He agreed! I thought it would be cool to meet him, he would at very least be amused by the counting method and since he was an Actuary maybe he would be interested in some actuating... I don't remember if I'd asked Norm about a sim on it at this point or not but somewhere around this time frame I asked him about it. He said he was too busy at the time. (Busy babysitting people pissing and moaning at each other on a forum???Hahaha)
Anyway, I get into Vegas in the afternoon, get situated and start hitting casinos. I stayed up all night, getting to sleep about 10 or 11 AM the next morning. Then I get a phone call after about two hours of sleep, it's none other than Michael Shackleford so I jump up and go since he says he's got like about a half an hour time window before a lunch engagement but this was the only opportunity to see him. Now here I am from dead sleep to headed to meet him with a pack of cards and a file folder about an inch thick, trying to think about just how to cram what would normally take about two hours to go over in even the most broad brush terms into about 20 minutes or so. This was impossible. I talked about the groupings quickly and did a quick card counting demonstration. There I was, totally out of it with 2 hours of sleep in the last 24 and I ran down the basic count a couple of times with 2 decks error free at the end of which he said, "Looks like a parlor trick."
I stumbled back to my room, slept a few more hours and then mapped out a trajectory through town for that night. What do I have to do to keep a dead on count? I have to be awake, that's the only requirement. If you can't handle long weird hours and don't have mental endurance then maybe full time blackjack is not for you is all I can say.
I've enjoyed a lot of great trips out west and it's often a cross country event. Regardless of the money I hauled out on that trip, I was a little depressed on the trip back toward AC. I still laugh about that but maybe some day if I had at least 52 more minutes I could somehow prove it's not a parlor trick? Who knows... in any case, this is an example of mental endurance. One of many examples of endurance and adaptability that you need if you play full time. Over the years, I've just gone whatever distance I was comfortable with as far as hours at the tables, quitting whenever I get tired with the limitation being quality of games and number of casinos available. Play blackjack through the night between 5 or 6 different casinos? Yep! Sleep two hours from there and then do a parlor trick for Michael Shackleford? That too!Hahaha He didn't examine anything long enough to have any familiarity at all with what I do and had no knowledge of Gordon/DHM type groupings. Wizard is not familiar.
People close to me know me as keeping "vampire hours", see irregular sleep patterns, etc. for many years. It's what has suited my needs, just as endurance has. The physical and mental endurance of an individual will vary over a great range. Can you understand why I would question fatigue as a reasoning for making mistakes compared to someone that is prone to making mistakes in general on their best day whether fatigued or not? If you are constantly training to have precision and mental endurance you could eventually end up with both, especially if your livelihood depends upon it.
As far as those HiOpt2 guys go that you seem to hate so much goes, I have my doubts you'll ever convince a high stakes HiOpt2 player that he'd be better off using Hi-Lo and your issues with them make no sense to me.
Quote: Tarzan"Wizard is familiar because Tarzan contacted him asking him to analyze his count so he could get Mike's endorsement. These people have agendas."
I'm less sure of how much of an agenda I may have than you are than you are, that's for sure. If I was in a big hurry, I could have printed or published a body of work a month or two ago... There are issues of any salability or marketability, a very tight window on who the work would appeal to in addition to my concerns and apprehensions about where it goes to.
An interesting story, KJ! As you recall, we were having a discussion on hours at the table, getting tired thing and I mentioned something along the lines of my endurance as an individual. Well, a few years back before headed into Vegas I ask Michael Shackleford about meeting up with him while I was there. He agreed! I thought it would be cool to meet him, he would at very least be amused by the counting method and since he was an Actuary maybe he would be interested in some actuating... I don't remember if I'd asked Norm about a sim on it at this point or not but somewhere around this time frame I asked him about it. He said he was too busy at the time. (Busy babysitting people pissing and moaning at each other on a forum???Hahaha)
Anyway, I get into Vegas in the afternoon, get situated and start hitting casinos. I stayed up all night, getting to sleep about 10 or 11 AM the next morning. Then I get a phone call after about two hours of sleep, it's none other than Michael Shackleford so I jump up and go since he says he's got like about a half an hour time window before a lunch engagement but this was the only opportunity to see him. Now here I am from dead sleep to headed to meet him with a pack of cards and a file folder about an inch thick, trying to think about just how to cram what would normally take about two hours to go over in even the most broad brush terms into about 20 minutes or so. This was impossible. I talked about the groupings quickly and did a quick card counting demonstration. There I was, totally out of it with 2 hours of sleep in the last 24 and I ran down the basic count a couple of times with 2 decks error free at the end of which he said, "Looks like a parlor trick."
I stumbled back to my room, slept a few more hours and then mapped out a trajectory through town for that night. What do I have to do to keep a dead on count? I have to be awake, that's the only requirement. If you can't handle long weird hours and don't have mental endurance then maybe full time blackjack is not for you is all I can say.
I've enjoyed a lot of great trips out west and it's often a cross country event. Regardless of the money I hauled out on that trip, I was a little depressed on the trip back toward AC. I still laugh about that but maybe some day if I had at least 52 more minutes I could somehow prove it's not a parlor trick? Who knows... in any case, this is an example of mental endurance. One of many examples of endurance and adaptability that you need if you play full time. Over the years, I've just gone whatever distance I was comfortable with as far as hours at the tables, quitting whenever I get tired with the limitation being quality of games and number of casinos available. Play blackjack through the night between 5 or 6 different casinos? Yep! Sleep two hours from there and then do a parlor trick for Michael Shackleford? That too!Hahaha He didn't examine anything long enough to have any familiarity at all with what I do and had no knowledge of Gordon/DHM type groupings. Wizard is not familiar.
People close to me know me as keeping "vampire hours", see irregular sleep patterns, etc. for many years. It's what has suited my needs, just as endurance has. The physical and mental endurance of an individual will vary over a great range. Can you understand why I would question fatigue as a reasoning for making mistakes compared to someone that is prone to making mistakes in general on their best day whether fatigued or not? If you are constantly training to have precision and mental endurance you could eventually end up with both, especially if your livelihood depends upon it.
Is there a point to this story Tarzan? All I can come up with is you are offering a excuse of being tired as a reason your demonstration to Mike didn't go well and the fact that he wasn't as impressed as you had hoped.
I find that interesting because during the many "count debate" discussions, one of my points is that using a simple, level 1 type count allows a player to make minimal mistakes. Of course it will vary by individual but my argument is that simple tasks, whether we are talking card counting or other areas of life generally come with a lower error rate when compared to more complex tasks. This is not opinion, it is proven scientific fact.
Part of that argument is you want to be able to perform your count easily, with minimal error rate in all conditions. In other words, you need to perform your count basically in your sleep.
But proponents of more complex counts, including yourself ALWAYS argue that this is not the case. Your argument (and I can go back and find some quotes by you if you like) is always that with enough practice you can play your more complex counts just as efficiently as someone else can play a simpler count. I am actually quite certain you didn't say "jast as efficiently" but have said "more efficiently".
Now here you want to use the excuse of being tired as why you didn't perform as efficiently as you otherwise would. Thank you Tarzan for making my point (far better than I have been able to). :)
Quote: QFIT
I let KJs numerous posts containing wild exaggerations go unanswered here for months. I have explained my position.
Since you want to come here and play the victim, and explain your positions, I wonder if you would be so kind as to explain THIS position.
On your site, there was a thread of mine from last year entitled "My humbling year" in which I posted my results from 2014. That thread was bumped up in the last few days by several different members stating how much they appreciated my sharing and asking if I was going to share my results for 2015.
I responded, Thanking them for their kind comments, but that regretfully I would not be posting my results. You, the guy who doesn't censor anything and is only concerned with helping players, removed my post. I guess your vendetta against me overrode both your desire to help players as well as your previously declared positions about not censoring.
It is your site, and you are clearly the dictator of Norm's world, who decides who can speak and who can't. That is your right as owner. But don't come here, or to other sites an play the goody-goody, victim of this situation, only out to help the members of the blackjack community, Mr Wattenberger. That clearly is not the case.
The thing is -- very few people can do that. And the greatness of these different systems (HOII+ASC) seems to be over-exaggerated (i.e.: read any of Tthree's posts), while the difficulty of the systems is underminded....saying anyone can learn & do it error free. As if you have everything in the world to gain by going to a higher advanced count with minimal downside. Which I don't think is a fair way to represent these high level systems.
"But I don't censor my forum."
Quote: mcallister3200The paranoid dictator has lost his damn mind. Any mention of KJ's name is to be banned at the capital district, I mean other site. It appears only praise of kitchen table theorists shall be allowed.
"But I don't censor my forum."
This was done specifically in response to your complaint. The fact is that nearly all posts about him are negative., which is understandable given his numerous false accusations against multiple members on multiple forums over multiple months. Your suggestions that I am banning "praise" of KJ is misleading as I haven't deleted ANY praise of KJ, only insults. And, the people you have called "kitchen table theorists" have been APs since before KJ was born.
And, I NEVER said I don't "censor". It is KJ that has repeatedly called for shutting up people that use strategies he doesn't like. And the claims that ANYONE has EVER said that EVERYONE can use complex strategies error-free is simply false. I have said, time and time again, from day 1, personal attacks are not allowed. I made this change for you. If you have a better solution, make it in the appropriate place. These continuing attempts at running a forum war harm the community.
Alright, I'm just a dumb Gawjuun, but is there some monetary gain from starting an inter-forum battle in terms of ads or clicks or something? Or are some people letting their pride get ahead of their normal selves? Or do I just have to read everything on every forum to even have a clue? Hint: not enough hours in the day to read all the forums, not enough days in your life to let your pride get the best of you. Unless there is monetary gain in the argument - well, maybe you shouldn't be arguing....Quote: IbeatyouracesNorm just wants peaceful discussions. I don't blame him for that.
Quote: QFIT
And, I NEVER said I don't "censor". It is KJ that has repeatedly called for shutting up people that use strategies he doesn't like. And the claims that ANYONE has EVER said that EVERYONE can use complex strategies error-free is simply false. I have said, time and time again, from day 1, personal attacks are not allowed. I made this change for you. If you have a better solution, make it in the appropriate place. These continuing attempts at running a forum war harm the community.
Norman these comments are disingenuous. I will give you the benefit of doubt and hope this is what you have convinced yourself, rather than a blatant attempt to defend your position through deception.
So please stop speaking for me, because, and I don't know how else to say this....you are lying.
I have stated my position. See my post in this very thread (Jan 1, 8:11am). I am not against players using more complex counts if that is what they choose. Personally, I and many/most professional players feel doing so in not very beneficial because of diminishing returns. That extra time and energy could be spent on techniques that are much more beneficial and have a much larger impact on one's win rate. But again if one chooses to put in the extra effort to squeeze an extra little slice of advantage, so be it. I have friends and other players that I network with that do so and I have never tried to persuade them from doing so.
I go back to what I said in that earlier post, you don't even seem to understand what the issue is. It IS NOT about what count a player chooses to play. It is about the dis-truths, exaggerated claims and manipulated data used to back these claims by those few players that have some sort of agenda to influence newer players.
It is about the statements made to back this agenda. Things like "You can't make any money playing a level one count", "no serious or professional players play hi-lo". These statements are false and even YOU know they are false. There are far more professional players playing hi-lo or K-O or similar level one count than any other count. And the only reason it is not an even higher percentage is because some of the older guys still playing learned something else years ago, when it did matter more and so there is now no reason to change.
These blatantly false statements combined with exaggerated claims of any small benefit of higher counts are part of an agenda by these select few. I realize your desire for a site free from the discussions that quickly escalate to attacks, but you have to balance that out with some sort of way to call these people out on their fraudulent claims and misguided agenda. Otherwise, YOU become part of the agenda and lose any credibility and objectivity in the community and that is basically what has happened.
Norm, you want to make it about me. I am the bad guy chasing people from your site. After years of participating on your site, and promoting your site every chance that I got and having one of the highest user ratings on your site and by your own words, being one of the more valuable members, you want people to believe that I woke up one morning hell bend on destroying you and your site. Ridiculous.
Some members like RS and McAllister3200 have spoken up here that have up to this point been silent. I hope that gives you something to consider. And they are the tip of the iceberg. I have told you that there are many more that have contacted me privately over the months that are just afraid to speak up on your site. And even more that just don't want to be bothered, but they have just stopped participating on your site. By allowing these few with an agenda to hijack your site, your site has become all but irrelevant in the community.
It isn't about differing opinions. I welcome a variety of opinions and contrasting styles. Much of my own game and style is bits and pieces that I have learned, taken, borrowed from other members along the way. It's about truth and fraudulent, exaggerated claims and manipulating the facts for some agenda. And because I was the last legitimate professional player remaining to call out and challenge these people they have now gone as far as to attempt to discredit me, paint me as a fraud and loon. One guy was allowed to post that I have mental illness or a possible brain tumor.
This has gone on long enough Norm. I have fought for you and for the integrity of your site, but I am done. I can't take it anymore. I leave you and your site to the few you have allowed to hijack it. They have their platform and you have your peaceful site with no one challenging ridiculous, exaggerated claims. And I guess the folks there can post whatever they like about me, that I am a fraud, I have a brain tumor, whatever. And Norm, you too can say and think whatever you like over there in Normyland.
But I will not allow you to follow me around from site to site, trolling me as you have been doing, making claims about my positions, what I say, think or feel that are fabricated and not representative of what I said, think or feel. Yet again, I respectfully ask you to stop. STOP speaking for me, because you are lying!
I did not respond to your lies here for months, until your exaggerations started including false accusations of fraud as you just made again. The concept that somehow I am trolling you because I finally dared to respond to your months of unanswered, false accusations of criminality coins a new use of the word troll. If this site thinks it is acceptable for people to make wild, unfounded accusations of criminal activity against other posters, there is nothing I can do about it. But, I will NEVER allow this at BJTF.
I have now banned any discussion of this on BJTF (and was called a dictator for it.) I will no longer post here. Now, what is the over/under on KJ continuing this for another six months?
Quote: QFITAs I have said numerous times, if you don't want to post on BJTF, don't post on BJTF. Simple. If you don't want me to respond to you on other sites, stop posting these ludicrous lies on other sites. Simple.
I did not respond to your lies here for months, until your exaggerations started including false accusations of fraud as you just made again. The concept that somehow I am trolling you because I finally dared to respond to your months of unanswered, false accusations of criminality coins a new use of the word troll.
I have now banned any discussion of this on BJTF (and was called a dictator for it.) I will no longer post here. Now, what is the over/under on KJ continuing this for another six months?
Under identical circumstances, do you really believe a player can achieve 4-5x the EV using the most optimal count (let's say computer perfect play) over a HiLo player? You ignore the lies that Tthree posts. What about having an N0 that's less than 1,000 rounds or realizing your EV within a few hours (5 or so)?
Anyone who disagrees with you is a liar and is uninformed?
