HI LO vs Ace 5 counting

My original purpose was to get promotions and comp rooms from CET properties. So I did my research and found Ace five counting from wizard of odds website and I also found hi lo counting system. I started using hi lo counting since I could make some money while I am playing for my original purpose of getting promotions and comps.

I just played a little over 3 hours on a $10 minimum blackjack table and lost $500. I played with 2 other players and the rules are 8 decks, 3:2 on blackjack, hit on soft 17, surrender allowed and so on. When I got TC +3 and +4 I started betting $25 but I was unlucky and lost like 5 hands straight. As TC goes back down to 1 I reduced my bet to 10 and I got blackjack. Unlucky night.

My question is, if I used Ace 5 counting instead of hi lo, would I break even? Most of the time my running counts are in negative, like -3 to -10.

Thanks in advance guys.

Highly doubtful A/5 would have been better in the particular situation. Hi/Lo is a more accurate gauge of your advantage and will do better for you long term. Nothing trumps bad luck. Whichever counting system you use finding a table with stand on soft 17 would improve you chances greatly.

Hi Lo is an industry standard for a reason in BJ card counting. It is used by amateurs and professional players alike. Hi Lo has been a favorite of famous teams such as the MIT teams, Church Team, etc. If I remember correctly about the A/5 count, it was meant to hopefully break even on games with much better rules such as Dealer Stands on soft 17, and fewer decks than 8 decks. Regarding short term results, BJ card counting is about proving/grinding out around a 1% advantage and so it can take many many rounds to prove that one has been playing with an advantage. It's true that most of the time in a shoe the counts are negative as close to 80% of the time, the hands are disadvantageous for the player. If you backcount(stand behind the table and count) and jump in and bet only when you see positive situations, it would save you money and increase your expected profitability compared to playing all hands in a shoe. Or just leaving the table when the True Count goes too negative would improve your expected results.

Thanks for reply, these days its really hard to find in CET properties that the tables stand on soft 17. I found them in high limit minimum $100 its a little over my budget for now. It was in Flamingo high limit room, 6D stand on soft 17, surrender allowed. After I calculated from wizard of odd website, it came out about 0.35 house edge better than 0.56 that I usually play.

Quote: Wino

Hi Lo is an industry standard for a reason in BJ card counting. It is used by amateurs and professional players alike. Hi Lo has been a favorite of famous teams such as the MIT teams, Church Team, etc. If I remember correctly about the A/5 count, it was meant to hopefully break even on games with much better rules such as Dealer Stands on soft 17, and fewer decks than 8 decks. Regarding short term results, BJ card counting is about proving/grinding out around a 1% advantage and so it can take many many rounds to prove that one has been playing with an advantage. It's true that most of the time in a shoe the counts are negative as close to 80% of the time, the hands are disadvantageous for the player. If you backcount(stand behind the table and count) and jump in and bet only when you see positive situations, it would save you money and increase your expected profitability compared to playing all hands in a shoe. Or just leaving the table when the True Count goes too negative would improve your expected results.

Yah Wino, backcounting was exactly what I did the next day and made $140 only play for about 5 hands on $25 minimum table. The TC was crazy high about +10 but since it was my second day counting so I was hesitated to put out big money. I also felt nervous because I read it on the forums that I really need to be cautious when backcounting.

Quote: mrxsleepy

My original purpose was to get promotions and comp rooms from CET properties. So I did my research and found Ace five counting from wizard of odds website and I also found hi lo counting system. I started using hi lo counting since I could make some money while I am playing for my original purpose of getting promotions and comps.

I just played a little over 3 hours on a $10 minimum blackjack table and lost $500. I played with 2 other players and the rules are 8 decks, 3:2 on blackjack, hit on soft 17, surrender allowed and so on. When I got TC +3 and +4 I started betting $25 but I was unlucky and lost like 5 hands straight. As TC goes back down to 1 I reduced my bet to 10 and I got blackjack. Unlucky night.

My question is, if I used Ace 5 counting instead of hi lo, would I break even? Most of the time my running counts are in negative, like -3 to -10.

Thanks in advance guys.

Hey sleepy, welcome to the forums!

I think Wino covered some good stuff, I just want to throw a couple small reminders/etc in. A-5 will not have anywhere near Hi/Low results. However, your spreads will dictate your results a great deal. In your story above you min bet $10 and then at TC +3 and +4 bet $25. This is WAYYYYYY to low of a spread. What is your top bet? $40? $50? If you're spreading $10-$50 you're not even being profitable, but more likely about breaking even (and with mistakes/etc that come with a newer counter maybe even playing a losing game)!

Hint: TC +3 is the most profitable TC to the player because of it's frequency. The jump to your TC +3 bet should be the largest "jump" in your spread.

Next, you probably already know but I just want to re-state, the count is just as likely to go positive as negative. You'll have nights where the count in every shoe at every table is negative. Then you'll have nights where the count in every shoe at every table is positive, but you still get crushed. You'll have nights where it's all negative and you can't lose a hand, etc... The variance (luck) can be quite the fickle wench in blackjack. Don't ever take any one night, week, or even month to have any statistical meaning in regards to your results.

CET is indeed difficult to get a S17 game. However, their games are beatable, but usually not for much money. You can spread $10-$160 on their H17 games and only expect to make about $25/hour, with a big bet like that requiring an overall bankroll of about $16,000.

Most places will give you free rooms if you just simply play, but especially if you play at the quarter level. If you can up the max to about $200, you can spread $25-$200 at the quarter tables and while this is still a weaker 1-8 spread (for 6 and 8 decks) this will be both more profitable to you AND playing quarter level will certainly get you all the free rooms you should desire.

Stick with Hi/Low... make sure you have the I18 memorized. Practice makes perfect. Then, check out either the A-Z thread on here, or my 3 "A to Z" articles in which I show how to make a spreadsheet to calculate your gains per hand/hourly EV/etc. When you're playing right and you can understand the real math of the game, then, and only then, will you KNOW you have a winning game. After that it's just about getting as many hands as you can on your way to the long run whilst cursing variance along the way =).

Good luck.

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Quote: Romes

Hint: TC +3 is the most profitable TC to the player because of it's frequency. The jump to your TC +3 bet should be the largest "jump" in your spread.

This is interesting. I have never heard this expressed this way. Good job, Romes. :)

Most card counters decide to place their top wager (max bet) at somewhere around a 2% advantage, which for most games is a TC of +5. I have always been more aggressive in getting my max bet out earlier by a TC of +3 because of this fact that the TC frequency dramatically drops after TC +3. Waiting to TC of +5 just doesn't do it for me because the frequency is so low. And waiting any longer than +5 as some of the books from the 80's & 90's tell you to is just a waste.

Max betting earlier @ TC +3 obviously is riskier. There is going to be increased variance. But the higher win rate if you have the bankroll to support doing so, is worth it IMO.

Max betting earlier also means a quick ramp with fewer (but larger) jumps, which I like. There are two thoughts on ramping quicker. Negatively, bigger jumps in your wager can draw attention, but positively there are fewer jumps. Spreads that have many betting levels are pretty easy to figure out.

Quote: Romes

Hey sleepy, welcome to the forums!

I think Wino covered some good stuff, I just want to throw a couple small reminders/etc in. A-5 will not have anywhere near Hi/Low results. However, your spreads will dictate your results a great deal. In your story above you min bet $10 and then at TC +3 and +4 bet $25. This is WAYYYYYY to low of a spread. What is your top bet? $40? $50? If you're spreading $10-$50 you're not even being profitable, but more likely about breaking even (and with mistakes/etc that come with a newer counter maybe even playing a losing game)!

Hint: TC +3 is the most profitable TC to the player because of it's frequency. The jump to your TC +3 bet should be the largest "jump" in your spread.

Next, you probably already know but I just want to re-state, the count is just as likely to go positive as negative. You'll have nights where the count in every shoe at every table is negative. Then you'll have nights where the count in every shoe at every table is positive, but you still get crushed. You'll have nights where it's all negative and you can't lose a hand, etc... The variance (luck) can be quite the fickle wench in blackjack. Don't ever take any one night, week, or even month to have any statistical meaning in regards to your results.

CET is indeed difficult to get a S17 game. However, their games are beatable, but usually not for much money. You can spread $10-$160 on their H17 games and only expect to make about $25/hour, with a big bet like that requiring an overall bankroll of about $16,000.

Most places will give you free rooms if you just simply play, but especially if you play at the quarter level. If you can up the max to about $200, you can spread $25-$200 at the quarter tables and while this is still a weaker 1-8 spread (for 6 and 8 decks) this will be both more profitable to you AND playing quarter level will certainly get you all the free rooms you should desire.

Stick with Hi/Low... make sure you have the I18 memorized. Practice makes perfect. Then, check out either the A-Z thread on here, or my 3 "A to Z" articles in which I show how to make a spreadsheet to calculate your gains per hand/hourly EV/etc. When you're playing right and you can understand the real math of the game, then, and only then, will you KNOW you have a winning game. After that it's just about getting as many hands as you can on your way to the long run whilst cursing variance along the way =).

Good luck.

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Hey Romes,
Thanks for the feed back. Yes it was my first time so I was thinking about my bet spread to 1-5. I m going to Vegas again on next weekend. I will work on I18 and take more money with me to do better bet spread. I also need to save more money to play on $25 table.

Thanks