Back Off?
Quote: RS98.01% chance you'll get backed off.
I came up with 97.86% chance of a back off. The surveillance person blinked a couple more times in my simulation, than yours, I guess.
Quote: jjjooogggOkay, I thought they'd let me play with almost break even odds. Guess not. They want every seat filled with donors.
they are not going to analyze how much your EV is. If you're counting, you're out.
why are you playing at that table, play at a different table while everyone is distracted.
Quote: jjjooogggOkay, I thought they'd let me play with almost break even odds. Guess not. They want every seat filled with donors.
The issue is that if you're playing alongside a counter who's under active surveillance theyll notice your bets rising and falling in unison with his/hers, where if you played at a different table you'd most likely be fine. I smell a 7/5 BP reference somewhere in the thread though.
Now the OP didn't say the other player was counting or moving money with the count. He said attracting attention with "reckless bets". That's just as bad. Surveillance will likely run a skill check on this person and decide he is no threat, but will pick you off in the process. Again, nothing good can come from playing at a table that is drawing attention, for whatever reason.
Now there is some benefit from "playing in the shadows" of bigger bettors and that includes card counters, if they are not at your table, but at the next table or across the pit. Surveillance (and pit) will be more focused on the other player and situation and your play goes unnoticed. This is one of the benefits of playing big event (fight nights) or holiday weekends. Of course there are draw backs to playing in on big event or holiday weekend nights, like crowded conditions and slow play.
Quote: mcallister3200I smell a 7/5 BP reference somewhere in the thread though.
Yeah, maxpen missed it...lol He should have said 97.87% in his response instead, imo. And I sadly know way too many of these numbers. I am pretty sure I know more than the Wiz does offhand.
Quote: jjjooogggScenario: If someone at the table attracts a lot of attention with reckless bets. I can safely assume that surveillance has began. If I play next to him with a 1-4 spread. What is the chance that I will be backed off?
How many decks?
The most stupid move I have ever made was playing in high limit with cover play for maybe 20 mins. I saw the pit boss make a call. A man slowly walked back into the surveillance room. I was told I am playing too well. I went to cash my chips. They asked for my ID.
Quote: jjjoooggg2 decks, staying at the table was dumb. I stayed for a few more decks. The guy came to the table and made his first bet $1600 and doubled. He won and dropped his bets to $25. He played one deck and left his chips and came back. In another casino similar situation, they caught me with no players card. Security was really? polite and said that I am welcome to play another game.
The most stupid move I have ever made was playing in high limit with cover play for maybe 20 mins. I saw the pit boss make a call. A man slowly walked back into the surveillance room. I was told I am playing too well. I went to cash my chips. They asked for my ID.
It was a double deck game then?
The player you describe does not sound like a card counter. A 1-64 spread? Really? Even if he were wonging he would not drop from $1600 down to $25 on the very next hand.
I've never heard of a casino banning someone from blackjack for failure to produce a player's card. I do know a few that will restrict the bets of those who do not produce the card.
Twenty minutes is not usually long enough for the pit boss or anyone else to form an opinion on a player. That could be as little as 20 or 30 hands. They usually need or want at least 45 minutes to an hour.
Surveillance rooms are not just off the casino floor and if they were no one would know. They are hidden deep in the bowels of the casino and some may be off site. Surveillance personnel usually have their own entrances and are not allowed to associate with other casino employees. (That must be an exciting Christmas party).
Quote: jjjooogggWifi cameras have not come close to reaching the quality of wired. There is also a max cable length limit before you need a cable amplifier
You may be remembering the older analog cameras.
The modern HD IP cameras are just fine. The limitations I've encountered are between the camera and the subject, not between the camera and the DVR or controller.
Even if the technology has arrived in the past five years. Most casino surveilance rooms were placed decades ago.
I agree that the camera angle and placement is mostly the issue.
Don't play at a table with other counters or APs.
Quote: jjjooogggI used to install surveillance for my restaurants. I also read books on surveillance and double wiring videos cameras in case one cable fails. Wiring is the most arduous part of maintainence. There is a significant probablility that the surveillance room is as close as possible to the high limit room. Wifi cameras have not come close to reaching the quality of wired. There is also a max cable length limit before you need a cable amplifier
Yes, yes exactly, we all still use this 1980's technology, and the surveillance room is always right behind the high rollers room and that is all we watch. Don't listen to these crazy guys talking about IP, what's IP anyway? Intellectual property? We are still wiring all cameras directly to the surveillance room over Coax and are stuck having to transmit actual video instead of data. We actually have a secret factory in Nicaragua that still manufactures VHS tapes and VCRs with both SP and EP video mode for the highest quality recording. Nothing to see here, move along.
Quote: KingoftheEyeYes, yes exactly, we all still use this 1980's technology, and the surveillance room is always right behind the high rollers room and that is all we watch. Don't listen to these crazy guys talking about IP, what's IP anyway? Intellectual property? We are still wiring all cameras directly to the surveillance room over Coax and are stuck having to transmit actual video instead of data. We actually have a secret factory in Nicaragua that still manufactures VHS tapes and VCRs with both SP and EP video mode for the highest quality recording. Nothing to see here, move along.
+1
Quote: jjjooogggI used to install surveillance for my restaurants. I also read books on surveillance and double wiring videos cameras in case one cable fails. Wiring is the most arduous part of maintainence. There is a significant probablility that the surveillance room is as close as possible to the high limit room. Wifi cameras have not come close to reaching the quality of wired. There is also a max cable length limit before you need a cable amplifier
The max cable length is easy to beat in the cabling world...if you are more than the max, adding another IDF and using switches connected by fiber is one easy way to stay well within range and move the data where it needs to go. Cat 6 (or Cat 5e) rarely fails in the "middle"...failures are usually on either end of the cable (involving the terminations and jacks) and easily fixed. The major manufacturers give 25 year warranties on certified cabling jobs.
Having the job done professionally (as most, if not all, casinos do) minimizes potentially issues.
I maneuvered a PTZ camera 150 miles from my office and read the print on a piece of cable laying 50 feet below it on the ground...
The surveillance room does not even have to be all that close to the casino floor...
Quote: jjjooogggI used to install surveillance for my restaurants. I also read books on surveillance and double wiring videos cameras in case one cable fails. Wiring is the most arduous part of maintainence. There is a significant probablility that the surveillance room is as close as possible to the high limit room. Wifi cameras have not come close to reaching the quality of wired. There is also a max cable length limit before you need a cable amplifier
Sorry, jjjoooggg, but you caught me on a bad day after work. Seriously though, comparing your restaurant installs to a multi-billion casino is not even apples and oranges, it's comparing ants to elephants.
Quote: jjjooogggThe technology has exponentially improved, but 5 years ago the image quality was crap even for a single $10,000 server recorder. I've been to restaurant conventions where point of sale terminals in the $10K range plus text overlay remote eyes servers adds another $5K. Fast food chains have surveillance challenges too. A single fast food store sees a cash flow of 1.5 mil /year. A dine in can go through $10 mil /year.
Some casinos have been working with HD for several years already. These days we are looking more full HD and in a couple of years or less, 4K. I understand you are trying to make a comparison to the restaurant business, but it just isn't there. These days, there are casinos that have cash flow >$10M in a day with dedicated staff monitoring the CCTV, so the investment is a lot higher. Still ants and elephants.
Quote: jjjooogggMost casino surveilance rooms were placed decades ago.
... and the last time I talked to my security system tech (about 5 years ago), he said that he had to take a day off of their current casino upgrade project to fix our little (non-casino) emergency.
He said he was doing a camera upgrade (analog to IP), and replacing some electric strikes that they kept burning out (they go through the cage mantrap enough times in a year to count for 10 years of use at most other sites).
Now, once they've replaced the old recorders with a more modern NVR and the cabling is in place, upgrading one camera's resolution is trivial - about a 15 minute job (about an hour if they have to make special arrangements for a scissor lift). It's entirely believable that the key angles have more than enough resolution to count your freckles.
