Blackjack unlimited doubles surrender
August 13th, 2015 at 1:44:44 AM
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Hi this is my first post here and I hope it's in the right place.
My main interest is online live dealer blackjack. There are different house rules to bj in these casinos and I found that some offer the option of "surrendering" a pair. Sometimes the option of late surrender exists in land based casinos in return for 50% of the bet but this is quite different. Here you have the option to give up you initial cards (in case of a pair) in return for only 20% of the bet amount. Normally you would only be able to split or hit.
Under these conditions which pairs would it be statistically more favourable to just forfeit and lose only 20% rather than the usual basic strategy options to split or hit?
The house rules are 8 decks, no resplitting, double after split.
I am looking for reliable mathematical information as I haven't the knowledge or tools to solve this myself.
Thanks so much!
My main interest is online live dealer blackjack. There are different house rules to bj in these casinos and I found that some offer the option of "surrendering" a pair. Sometimes the option of late surrender exists in land based casinos in return for 50% of the bet but this is quite different. Here you have the option to give up you initial cards (in case of a pair) in return for only 20% of the bet amount. Normally you would only be able to split or hit.
Under these conditions which pairs would it be statistically more favourable to just forfeit and lose only 20% rather than the usual basic strategy options to split or hit?
The house rules are 8 decks, no resplitting, double after split.
I am looking for reliable mathematical information as I haven't the knowledge or tools to solve this myself.
Thanks so much!
August 14th, 2015 at 3:55:29 AM
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Quote: IntobjHi this is my first post here and I hope it's in the right place.
My main interest is online live dealer blackjack. There are different house rules to bj in these casinos and I found that some offer the option of "surrendering" a pair. Sometimes the option of late surrender exists in land based casinos in return for 50% of the bet but this is quite different. Here you have the option to give up you initial cards (in case of a pair) in return for only 20% of the bet amount. Normally you would only be able to split or hit.
Under these conditions which pairs would it be statistically more favourable to just forfeit and lose only 20% rather than the usual basic strategy options to split or hit?
The house rules are 8 decks, no resplitting, double after split.
I am looking for reliable mathematical information as I haven't the knowledge or tools to solve this myself.
Thanks so much!
Intobj,
Welcome to the forum. I don't think Questions and Answers is a bad place for your question, but I think it might get more attention from those who can answer it mathematically (I'm not one of them) in the Blackjack sub-forum, so I've moved it there.
My humble and non-mathematical opinion is that you should surrender 2's, 3's, and 6's, hit/double 4's and 5's, and split A's 7's, 8's, and 9's. Stand on 10's. I could easily be wrong.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
August 14th, 2015 at 6:59:26 AM
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Hey Intobj, and welcome to the forums. The main reason we surrender is because a 50% Expected Value (EV) is higher than the other choices outcomes. When you have a 16v10, your EV of hitting is -54%, however the EV of surrendering is -50%. These numbers can be found in the Wizard's appendix here: https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/1/
In order to make surrendering a pair worthwhile, you would need to find yourself in a situation where the EV of hitting, splitting, or standing on the pair is MORE THAN -80%. Then it would be wise to take the 20% return because you'll "lose less" in the long run. Feel free to review the appendix yourself, but there is no situation in which your pair (any pair) would result in more than an 80% loss. The closest scenario would be splitting 5's against a dealer 10 at -73%, which we already know would be a bonehead play since hitting it would be a much better option at a +2.5%.
So to sum up the answer for you, you should NEVER surrender your pairs for a 20% return (and a -80% loss).
*Be careful with these online live casinos. Even the ones with playable games cut the penetration to 50% normally, which makes them unbeatable. If you'd like to know why or to simply learn more about the game, check out my 3 A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack articles under the Articles section of this site.
In order to make surrendering a pair worthwhile, you would need to find yourself in a situation where the EV of hitting, splitting, or standing on the pair is MORE THAN -80%. Then it would be wise to take the 20% return because you'll "lose less" in the long run. Feel free to review the appendix yourself, but there is no situation in which your pair (any pair) would result in more than an 80% loss. The closest scenario would be splitting 5's against a dealer 10 at -73%, which we already know would be a bonehead play since hitting it would be a much better option at a +2.5%.
So to sum up the answer for you, you should NEVER surrender your pairs for a 20% return (and a -80% loss).
*Be careful with these online live casinos. Even the ones with playable games cut the penetration to 50% normally, which makes them unbeatable. If you'd like to know why or to simply learn more about the game, check out my 3 A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack articles under the Articles section of this site.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
August 14th, 2015 at 7:16:05 AM
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KewlJ, I read it as he is only giving up 20% to surrender.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
August 14th, 2015 at 8:33:17 AM
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Quote: DRichKewlJ, I read it as he is only giving up 20% to surrender.
Ah, I read it as he was only getting 20% back... If it's the other way around (getting 80% of your money back for surrendering pairs) then all the same he should leverage the appendix to find when he has a pair and all of his possible choices (hit, stand, split) are all more than -20%. Though in this scenario, I would imagine you have a lot of good opportunities to surrender (mostly against dealer high cards in my educated guess without referencing the appendix).
Also, when did KewlJ post in this thread? =)
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
August 14th, 2015 at 10:18:34 AM
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Quote: Romes
Also, when did KewlJ post in this thread? =)
Sorry about that.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
August 16th, 2015 at 6:41:16 AM
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The pairs that should be surrendered are: 6-6 vs 2; 8-8 vs 9; 8-8 vs 10, 8-8 vs A; A-A vs A. Surrendering these pairs improve player’s chances by 0.1%.
VPRookie
VPRookie
November 3rd, 2016 at 7:59:34 PM
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The game is OBO so you just surrender 66 v 2 and 88 v 9 and T. You do not have an option to surrender against ace, nor would you surrender AA v A if you did. You can only 20% surrender basic strategy splits.
