Ace 5 count

Hi all,

I'm learning to card count (hi-lo) and have been practicing counting down a deck (both singly and 2 cards at a time), memorizing the I18, reading books on the subject (e.g., Schlesinger), and, of course, surfing this forum for all the pearls of wisdom on here! I've also bought a decent set of casino-type poker chips ($10 on Craigslist!!) and plan to use them for practice once I get better at my counting skills.

In the meantime, I read on WoO about a very simple card counting system: the Ace/five count. I'm sure many of you are familiar with it. I know it's nowhere near as powerful as the many other counting systems, but it's very easy to learn.

1. Has anyone actually used it? (Maybe back years ago, when you just started counting?) How did you fare?

2. Once the count drops below +2 does one immediately drop down to the minimum bet, such as would happen at the beginning of a new shoe? Wouldn't that draw some heat?

The reason for the above questions is that I have a chance to play some BJ this weekend (Seattle area) and I'm wondering if incorporating the simple A-5 system is better than basic strategy alone? (I'm not sure exactly what kind of game I'll encounter this weekend, but I'm guessing 6D, H17, NS, 3:2 BJs, DAS.)

As always, I'm grateful for the observations/advice.

Theorie

p.s. have any Washingtonians visited the casino in Snoqualmie? What can I expect there?

This falls into the category of any count is better than no count. Go ahead and try Ace-5 this weekend but promise that you'll ditch it after that. It will be a very uphill battle with the rules that you gave so don't set your expectations too high. Frankly, breaking even and getting some comps, if playing rated, would be a victory. You're looking at a house edge of 0.64%. It will take a large betting spread that you may not be ready to employ.

Counting down a deck for speed is overrated in my opinion. Use your time to 1) learn basic strategy, 2) learn Hi-lo and 3) learn index play. Small steps. It's not a race so take as long as you need.

^^^ I rarely (I don't think ever) have disagreed with 1BB! I suppose there's a first for everything =P. Why try to learn another count when you're in the middle of learning Hi/Low? This will ultimately confuse you and lead to more mistakes. Your mind is fresh on the topic, so I wouldn't want to throw in other stuff that could "stick" and get lumped in with Hi/Low material. Not only that, with a .64% HE what is he missing out on (using the A-5 count)... $5/hour?

Well, it sounds like you're following along the right steps! Let's answer your questions then follow up.

1) Yes, and it performs how the math says for the most part (beware of short term variance). It is pretty easy to implement, but is not as powerful as Hi/Low. Take it from me, learn Hi/Low. If you want to learn other count systems (easier or harder) after that, feel free... but mastering Hi/Low is a beautiful place to start as it's powerful enough that you'll never 'need' to learn another counting system. Also, when you learn counting and practice correctly, you'll remember the system for the rest of your life. It's like learning to ride a bike. Once the skill is acquired, it's a skill you will have for a very long time. Stick with Hi/Low =).

2) Well, I'm assuming you're talking about the True Count (TC), and yes... though it depends ;). For starters I'll say that you bet whatever your bet spread/ramp dictates. Thus, if for TC < +2 you bet 1 unit, you bet 1 unit. The only difference would be rarely the need for camo. On some rare occasions you might have a TC +5 in which you have a max bet out. A LOT of big cards come out and you find the TC is +1. In this particular scenario you can't exactly go from max bet to min bet without looking awkward, as you've noticed. However, dropping to min bet should be the last thing on your "TO DO" list in this situation. Think about it, there are a lot better ways to handle this situation that don't cost you money (over betting TC +1 for camo). You can sit out (take a phone call, go to the bathroom, etc) or change tables/leave. I discuss "camo with a cost" and "free camo" in my 2nd of 3 "A-Z Counting Cards in Blackjack" articles which you can find here.

For this weekend: Do not confuse yourself with the A-5 count when you're practicing Hi/Low. In fact, you're missing a great opportunity! Simply flat bet and try your hand at counting in a casino. This is a great way to test where your count is at. Do not get frustrated if you lose the count or can't do it as you're early in your practicing, but I bet you'll be a little surprised how simple it can be =). Just flat bet and practice Hi/Low! The game you're playing isn't very good (unless the penetration is phenominal) so you're probably only missing out on like $10/hour EV (spread $10-$120) anyways. I'd certainly pay that price for a prime lesson and training session that will set you up for the rest of your life =D.

*I'd definitely recommend checking out the 3 articles I have posted as they should help answer questions like these as well as fill any gaps in your knowledge you may have.

Thanks, 1BB, Romes,

I don't worry about confusing A-5 with Hi-Lo. With the former, I'm only counting Aces and fives and keeping a running count--that's it. It's a baby simple system. And since there are no indices associated with it, I can play just using basic strategy, and I feel very confident about my BS play. My only concern is that if I have a losing streak of any moderate length, that I'll go through my session bankroll even more quickly than just by flat betting.

But I do like the idea of also flat betting (my usual mode of playing) and silently practicing my Hi-Lo--it'd be a first time actually trying it.

I'm not sure of the penetration at this casino, but I'll keep a careful watch on where the dealer puts the cut card. (At my local casino, it's no less than 75%. I even asked the dealer once--he said he tries to cut it to approximately 1 deck!) Yeah, I know the HE is pretty poor for me, but at least it's still 3:2 BJ, and from what I've read on here that at least makes the game worth playing.

Mostly I just want to have some at a new casino, and if I break even, I'll be happy. I'll report back when I return.

Quote: theoriemeister

The reason for the above questions is that I have a chance to play some BJ this weekend (Seattle area) and I'm wondering if incorporating the simple A-5 system is better than basic strategy alone? (I'm not sure exactly what kind of game I'll encounter this weekend, but I'm guessing 6D, H17, NS, 3:2 BJs, DAS.)

So... you say you're not ready, and you're wondering if there's a shortcut to getting ready?

Trust that you're not ready. If you insist on playing anyway, pick a comfortable betting size, flat bet, and basic strategy. Be prepared to lose. Even if you're playing a winning game, you will have losing sessions.


Of course, if you don't even know what game you'll be encountering, how will you even have the correct basic strategy down?


To actually address A-5: you still need to do an RC-TC conversion, which is "the hard part" of a count. If you're looking for simpler, look to eliminate a step, not simplify the tag set. (Look at Knock-Out if Hi-Lo proves too challenging, not A-5.)

Quote: Dieter

To actually address A-5: you still need to do an RC-TC conversion, which is "the hard part" of a count. If you're looking for simpler, look to eliminate a step, not simplify the tag set. (Look at Knock-Out if Hi-Lo proves too challenging, not A-5.)

Did I miss something in the Wiz's brief explanation of A-5 count? I thought that it's based strictly on RC and not TC.

My advice. Don't even fool around with A-5. I am a simplicity guy and hi-lo is considered a simple count (compared to other level 2 and 3 counts). It works. My own results along with thousands of other players including most serious or professional players and most teams, proves this. That's good enough for me.

You start trying to go 'simpler' than hi-lo or KO and you really start to effect performance and results. Continue working with hi-lo until you have mastered it.

Quote: theoriemeister

Did I miss something in the Wiz's brief explanation of A-5 count? I thought that it's based strictly on RC and not TC.

My apologies, I must have been misremembering. Without doing a TC adjustment, it's surely weakened from what it could be.

In any case, I don't think you'll do noticeably better in the short run with A-5 than flat betting, and I think you might do worse. The swings get magnified when you increase your bet, and the dealer will win a fair number of hands at high counts.

I should have said not to play at all until you had a good understanding of Hi-Lo but I know you're going to. That's why I wasn't too concerned about your idea to use Ace-5. I did say to never use it again after this weekend. Ace-5 is a waste of time even to the half serious player, in my opinion, but I didn't want you to become overwhelmed with Hi-Lo if it's too soon.

Feeling confident about basic strategy is one thing but you should know it cold for S17 and H17. Cold means no hesitation and no mistakes because mistakes could substantially raise that already high house edge. Once you have that down you can move on to index plays etc. It's also a little early for Blackjack Attack, if that's what you are referring to as Schlesinger's book, so shelve it for the time being. It's good that you have it though.

I can't imagine heat at this time but for goodness sake, don't go looking for it. Do not ask the dealer about penetration. There is only one type of player interested in that, the rest don't care or aren't aware of it. Don't discuss any strategy with anyone at the table. You will soon become more informed than the average blackjack player and must practice restraint no matter how tempting it is to help someone. It could jump up and bite you.

Are you going to play rated and what will you be looking at for a betting spread when you're ready?

Have you heard of Speed Count? I'm kidding. :-) Don't you dare! They'll have me tarred and feathered. :-)

Quote: 1BB

Have you heard of Speed Count? I'm kidding. :-) Don't you dare! They'll have me tarred and feathered. :-)

You should be tarred and feathered just for having even mentioned speed count. :) Anyone mentioning A-5 count should be tarred and feathered as well. I just cut the OP some slack because he is apparently new. (who knows these days)

Okay, okay, I'll just flat bet and practice my hi-lo, to see if I'm able to keep the count.

I'll bring my iPad along in the car, so I can look up BS charts. I'l be very surprised if the game is S17.

As for being rated, I don't know what that means. Remember, I'm just a newbie.

Rated simply means playing on the given casino's 'player card'. Be it Total Rewards for CET properties or the B card for Boyd properties.

In a Single Deck game with 3/2 payoiffs on a BJ this count (with a 4-1 spread) is profitable, if there are no restrictions on soft doubling AND the penetration is > 50% with heads-up play (and "rule of 6")

However, you'll not come close to breaking even in the Seattle area, as this count offers almost nothing for a shoe game or a H17 DD game with common rules.

There are NO BJ games anywhere in WA or OR that is S17.

It takes a strong count and a large bankroll in order to win in Washington State.

Quote: ZenMasterFlash

In a Single Deck game with 3/2 payoiffs on a BJ this count (with a 4-1 spread) is profitable, if there are no restrictions on soft doubling AND the penetration is > 50% with heads-up play (and "rule of 6")

However, you'll not come close to breaking even in the Seattle area, as this count offers almost nothing for a shoe game or a H17 DD game with common rules.

There are NO BJ games anywhere in WA or OR that is S17.

It takes a strong count and a large bankroll in order to win in Washington State.

Welcome to the site, ZM Flash, I am looking forward to your contributions here, as I do other places. :)

Although myself and a few members that participate on other sites are aware of your credentials, perhaps you could introduce yourself a little to those who may not be.

Quote: ZenMasterFlash

In a Single Deck game with 3/2 payoiffs on a BJ this count (with a 4-1 spread) is profitable, if there are no restrictions on soft doubling AND the penetration is > 50% with heads-up play (and "rule of 6")

However, you'll not come close to breaking even in the Seattle area, as this count offers almost nothing for a shoe game or a H17 DD game with common rules.

There are NO BJ games anywhere in WA or OR that is S17.

It takes a strong count and a large bankroll in order to win in Washington State.

ZMFlash,


Welcome to the site, and thanks for stopping by! I've read you a couple other places and appreciate your posts.

Never even heard of Ace-Five count until this question prompted me to look it up. It sounds like an exercise in coming up with the simplest possible way to break even, not something that would be worth while. It doesn't even seem that much easier than keeping a hi-lo running count.

Also, the strategy at wizardofodds calls a spread that is probably larger than what most people would want the very first time they sit a table with the idea of earning a profit by overcoming the house edge at blackjack.

The idea of simply keeping a count and flat betting is a good one. Maybe even wait until the true count goes to +2 then flat bet the remainder of the shoe. That might be almost as good as the ace-five, with no issue if you mess up, and you'll have a good idea for when you're ready to start raising your bet with the count

I appreciate all the replies. According to the Wiz's chart, playing an 1-8 spread in a S17 game will only garner the player an .30% advantage. However, the H17 would cost .22%, reducing the player's edge to .08%. (Is my math correct here?) And with a lower spread I'm sure that amount would disappear as well. Sigh. Oh well, it was just a thought.

So, I think my strategy this weekend will be to flat bet the minimum and practice keeping count. I won't have the bank roll to be aggressive, and I know my counting skills are not ready to put to the test. However, I figure that spending $60-80 to practice counting in a real-life situation is a small price to pay. And if I'm able to break even, or win $10, all the better.

Quote: theoriemeister

I appreciate all the replies. According to the Wiz's chart, playing an 1-8 spread in a S17 game will only garner the player an .30% advantage. However, the H17 would cost .22%, reducing the player's edge to .08%. (Is my math correct here?) And with a lower spread I'm sure that amount would disappear as well. Sigh. Oh well, it was just a thought.

So, I think my strategy this weekend will be to flat bet the minimum and practice keeping count. I won't have the bank roll to be aggressive, and I know my counting skills are not ready to put to the test. However, I figure that spending $60-80 to practice counting in a real-life situation is a small price to pay. And if I'm able to break even, or win $10, all the better.

You go get um.
Don't bet your rent money

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Don't bet your rent money

How can you lose with a username like theoriemeister?

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

How can you lose with a username like theoriemeister?

Thanks for the support, Double! I'll try not to let you down! ;)

Here's my update.

I got to the Snoqualmie casino about 12:30. Walked in and asked about the non-smoking gaming. I was directed to a TINY room where there was 1-2 tables of Hold 'Em going and 4 BJ tables, but no games. I asked the pit boss about it and he said the BJ games wouldn't start 'til about 4:00pm!

I also noticed the $10 minimum ($300 max) and asked about a $5 table. I was informed that on the weekend there are NO $5 games to be had. So, right then I decided that I didn't have enough money to make it worth my while at a $10 table. (I had only $100.)

So I wander into the smoky part of the casino over to the BJ tables and watch a few tables. I try counting as the play progressed and noticed that it takes a lot of concentration, especially as I'm thinking about how the players should be playing their hand. The game went by quickly, and the dealer would scoop up a player's hand immediately after a bust. I have lots of practicing to do.

Finally, I notice the size of the shoe and I'm thinking to myself, "this looks like 8 decks!" Later I was able to confirm it was indeed 8 decks, so even as a beginner I already knew that playing 6D is pretty bad, but 8D would be even worse!

So I never played this weekend! (And I'll probably NEVER play there.) But on the bright side, I still have the money I set aside. I'll save it for my local home casino.

Sounds like you had a good little learning experience. Even when the dealers take a bust hand cards immediately out of play (everywhere does this) you should already have the main 2 card hands for everyone counted. Thus, if someone has XX (you should have the whole table counted before anyone hits/doubles/etc), then all you have to do is keep track of the drawn cards. So XX draws a Jack to bust, you should have your RC and just -1. Also, the difference between 6 decks and 8 decks is only .02%. There's relatively no difference. The real important rules are Penetration, then S17, etc. I'll play an 8D H17 game if they only cut off half a deck =).

Practice, practice, practice. Trust me it becomes QUITE easy to count. Remember to practice at home with all the same distractions. Deal to yourself and a hand on both sides of you that "other people" are playing and just play BS on those hands. Also remember noise, and concentration multitasking (watch a TV show at the same time, or have a conversation with someone at the same time). You made a great decision not to play this weekend. So practice up and when you go back and you are ready/able to play you'll have all the confidence in the world to do so!

Quote: theoriemeister

So I never played this weekend!

The lack of ability to walk away without playing is the downfall of many beginners.

Thanks, Romes.

I didn't think the difference between 6D and 8D was significant, but there was no way I was going to make $100 last for any decent length of time at a $10 table, unless I had a nice win streak right off the bat.

As you mentioned I've already started dealing hands at home (5 players, but betting only "myself"). It's slow going at the moment, but I'll get faster as I practice more. (I'm a musician so I know all about the value of consistent practice!)

Quote: theoriemeister

(I'm a musician so I know all about the value of consistent practice!)

I briefly met a high school music teacher from Ohio.

He had moved into the house I was sharing with another fellow Steve (from Virginia). Steve had a job in Vegas repairing those red lights on the towers in town, and out in the mountain communities. Very nice fellow, and very interesting, had a lot going on. The music guy was going to quit his day job to take up card counting.

After a couple weeks of the Vegas crowd, a run in with the gangs, and seeing what playing in the casinos is really about, he packed up and went home.

Just like that.

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

I briefly met a high school music teacher from Ohio.

He had moved into the house I was sharing with another fellow Steve (from Virginia). Steve had a job in Vegas repairing those red lights on the towers in town, and out in the mountain communities. Very nice fellow, and very interesting, had a lot going on. The music guy was going to quit his day job to take up card counting.

After a couple weeks of the Vegas crowd, a run in with the gangs, and seeing what playing in the casinos is really about, he packed up and went home.

Just like that.

Well, I won't be giving up my day job to be an AP! On a similar note, Double, I see students all the time whose big dream is to go on tour with their garage band, but when many of them see what real dedication to the craft entails, they usually decide to pursue another major.

Update:

I visited my local casino to play a little and make my first attempt at counting. My plan was to flat bet, play BS and try to keep count in my head. Even though I was head on with the dealer, I sat 3rd base, so that when others arrived I'd see their cards before I had to play. (And before 10 minutes went by I was joined by others.) Well, I learned very quickly why card counting is so exhausting. The concentration that it takes is pretty amazing, at least for someone who is a beginner. I couldn't make it through an entire shoe without losing the count. Something would break my concentration. And I'm much too slow at this point.

Anyway, I managed to make my $60 ($3 flat bets) last about 90 minutes or so; I was up about $10 early on but had several losing streaks (once of 6-7 consecutive hands) throughout to doom me. On the other hand I also had 6 BJs, so I did walk home with $3.00 in silver (for my piggy bank)! woo hoo! lol (At the place where I play the BJs pay 3:2, so I receive a 50-cent piece as part of a BJ [$4.50]. At the end of the evening it's easy to see how many BJs I had.)

My most notable hand: I started head-to-head with the dealer but before long the table filled. On one hand a bunch of 8s (I think five) were dealt, with two us receiving pairs. First guy does NOT split them but stands against the dealer's 6. Wtf?? I split mine, receive another 8, which I split, then get dealt a 6 & 4. Ugh. Then I receive a fourth 8 and split that. I receive a 10 and 4. So I have four bets out: 14, 13, 18, 14 vs. the dealer 6. Dealer's hole card is another 8! He hits his 14 and gets a 5--and I lose all four bets!

Still, it was a relatively inexpensive way to be reminded how far I have to go! I had a nice time, chatting with the other players and dealers, which will be great camouflage later on.

Practice practice practice my friend =). Sounds like you had another good learning trip. To be honest though, it sounds to me like you need to be practicing at home much more before heading back to the casino. When you get to the casino and count for the first few times, yes, you'll get distracted or lose a count here or there... but in no way possible should it be just about every shoe. That's a big sign of not ready. If you can, have a friend deal out hands to you and just keep running through decks until it feels monotonous, because that's how it needs to feel to be ready to go to the casino! Bonus points if it's a cute friend that will 'distract' you while dealing. Then I think you'll know that you can handle the old grumpy pit bosses =P.

When counting, do you wait for the 2nd round of cards to be coming out? Do you use the cancellation principal instead of counting card by card? Some say it's a waste to count a deck down, but I absolutely push it as part of necessary training because I think it just helps with counting speed / canceling. Most people lose the count because they can't keep up.

Keep on keeping on and learning/practicing! Next update in a month should be: I practiced all month. I'm a machine! I went to the casino and didn't lose the count once tonight flat betting... Now let's put a bankroll/spread together and I'm ready to attack!

Couple of very simple ways to help you learn how to keep track of the count:

1) stack the chips you have in front of you to whatever the running count is. If you want, you can even bet $1 for whatever the count is anytime it goes over three

2) say the count out loud after every hand. Or even during when it's more than just you at the table

Quote: TomG

Couple of very simple ways to help you learn how to keep track of the count:

1) stack the chips you have in front of you to whatever the running count is. If you want, you can even bet $1 for whatever the count is anytime it goes over three

2) say the count out loud after every hand. Or even during when it's more than just you at the table

While I do find this comical, some of our newer/inexperienced members might think you're being half serious... Though really, I did get a chuckle out of it =p.

...counting with chips and mouthing the count are two of the biggest mistakes and obvious tells of new counters, for those wondering =).

Quote: Romes

While I do find this comical, some of our newer/inexperienced members might think you're being half serious... Though really, I did get a chuckle out of it =p.

Half-serious because it's still a better way to play than nearly everyone else I've ever seen at the blackjack table.

Half-joking because it will cap your winnings at around $100 and a few buffet comps per year.

It's also a lot better than the ace-five count

Quote: Dieter

Maybe you should get checked out.

If you can't find a qualified person, you need to check yourself. A shoe, a discard rack, and 8 decks of cards shouldn't cost more than $150, even at the ridiculous prices you may need to pay (hooray for VAT). Chips are optional.

You may have something around you can use as a video camera, to record you play through 10 shoes (record the cards in play and the discard tray).

You'll need to enlist someone to deal, and possibly someone to stop you periodically to ask what the count is (could be your dealer friend). Whoever is asking should take notes of RC, TC, and probably what bet you would be putting out.

Have the TV on and in view, and the stereo on. Both at reasonable volumes (not blaringly loud, but not too quiet - normal volumes for both). (Ignoring distractions is part of the test.)

You can go through the video after the fact and record each and every seen card, pausing if necessary, and comparing your live counts to the actual counts - like you're the eye, doing a skills check without software.

I found this one funny too.

Quote: teddys

They will always know more than you. You just don't have the time, expertise, or resources that these guys have.

Like a quote from the stock market thread.

Would the Ace-5 be more effective in Spanish 21 since there are less 10 value cards to begin with? For some reason this seemed to make since in my head without thinking about it too much

Quote: hailtotheskins

Would the Ace-5 be more effective in Spanish 21 since there are less 10 value cards to begin with? For some reason this seemed to make since in my head without thinking about it too much

Ace-5 is barely effective for holding even on a full deck with S17, and you'll still get huge swings.

If you're going to count, do better.