Doubling on an A-8 against a dealer's 6?
You have a A-8 against the dealer's 6. You DOUBLE instead of staying.
No doubt this one will raise eyebrows and potentially draw suspicion from the pit at a table.
I could understand this as an index play when the count is high enough, but does anyone include this as part of their basic strategy ensemble? Curious...
It is basic strategy on a H17 game.
Quote: RS...It is basic strategy on a H17 game.
I was playing H17 blackjack in a casino somewhere between LA and Palm Springs. I doubled A-8 vs 6 and lost. The young pretty dealer insulted my play. I told her that doubling soft 19 vs 6 is the right play and asked her if she wanted to bet. She said okay. I asked her to look it up when she got home, and she said, "I don't have to--I know I'm right." !
Quote: AmleeColin and Ben from Blackjack Apprenticeship include this move in their basic strategy.
You have a A-8 against the dealer's 6. You DOUBLE instead of staying.
No doubt this one will raise eyebrows and potentially draw suspicion from the pit at a table.
According to my Basic Strategy card, you double soft 19 with a dealer 6 if it's an H17 game. If it's an S17 game, you stand on soft 19.
that narrows it down to 2 casinosQuote: ChesterDogI was playing H17 blackjack in a casino somewhere between LA and Palm Springs.
San Manuel off the 210 and Casino Morongo (Moron for short) off the 10
when you do this are you only doubling on a 9 and NOT a 19?Quote: ChesterDogI doubled A-8 vs 6 and lost.
does this matter in some Casinos?
I thinks it does when you get an A or a 2
that gives you a 10 or 11 and not a 20 or 21
I hear players scream about this but do not play much BJ
would an ugly OLD dealer do the same?Quote: ChesterDogThe young pretty dealer insulted my play.
I mean, insult your play?
and is this a pretty young male dealer, HOT!!!
still HOT!!!!!!!!Quote: ChesterDogI told her
only by EV standardsQuote: ChesterDogthat doubling soft 19 vs 6 is the right play
did you mention that part?
she IS right.Quote: ChesterDogand asked her if she wanted to bet. She said okay. I asked her to look it up when she got home, and she said, "I don't have to--I know I'm right." !
where
player wins more hands standing on A8
of course, if the casino treats a A or a 2 as a 10 and 11 total i thinks the ev becomes worse
where are the experts...
Don, what you say abouts this concept?
but
the sky is getting dark now and off to see the shows!
Sally
Problem is that even as a basic strategy play most players, even most players that claim to be basic strategy players, don't make this basic strategy play, so it stands out when you do.
It's a little bit like that with hitting A7 vs 10 or A or even hitting 12 vs 3. Both basic strategy plays but many people, even people that play pretty good basic strategy don't make them. A8 vs 6 is more obvious because there is doubling involved.
When I say making this play correctly stands out or draws some attention, it isn't as bad as splitting 10's, but it does tell the pit "hey this guy at the very least, completely knows and plays basic strategy". If I worked the pit, I have to admit that I would take a closer look at a players like that. :(
Quote: mustangsally...that narrows it down to 2 casinos
San Manuel off the 210 and Casino Morongo (Moron for short) off the 10...
It wasn't San Manuel, so I guess it was Morongo, but human memory is so unreliable. But I'm sure of the rest of my story.
Quote: mustangsally...when you do this are you only doubling on a 9 and NOT a 19?
does this matter in some Casinos?
I thinks it does when you get an A or a 2
that gives you a 10 or 11 and not a 20 or 21...
I know Double Exposure Blackjack is one of those games that have the rule that only 9, 10, and 11 may be doubled and that A-8 and a 2 is sometimes called 11.
Quote: mustangsally...would an ugly OLD dealer do the same?
I mean, insult your play?
and is this a pretty young male dealer, HOT!!!...
I have the impression that we give beautiful people too much deference, and so they feel more entitled that the rest of us. By the way, I don't mind insults from the dealers--it's like a Don Rickles performance.
Quote: mustangsally...only by EV standards
did you mention that part?
she IS right.
where
player wins more hands standing on A8...
That's a good question. No, I didn't explain that doubling A-8 vs 6 is the right play to maximize my expected profit. It would be fun to find the strategy for blackjack that maximizes the probably of winning a hand instead of the EV of the hand.
Quote: ChesterDogIt would be fun to find the strategy for blackjack that maximizes the probably of winning a hand instead of the EV of the hand.
Depending on how you interpret "winning a hand" when you split a pair, my guess is, follow basic strategy but never double. The only difference between doubling and a normal hit/stand is, you are forced to stand after you take a card when you double.
In that case, the "maximize win probability" strategy would be, when you would normally double a soft hand, instead hit if you have soft 17 or less and stand if you have soft 18 or more.
Quote: AmleeNo doubt this one will raise eyebrows and potentially draw suspicion from the pit at a table.
Really ticks off players when you mess up the flow of the cards.
Quote: kewljYep, it is basic strategy for H17 and just above basic strategy (index of +1) at S17.
but it does tell the pit "hey this guy at the very least, completely knows and plays basic strategy". If I worked the pit, I have to admit that I would take a closer look at a players like that. :(
You assume that the pit knows basic strategy, which is almost always not the case. I have no fear about making this play.
Have casinos gotten to the point where they would not even tolerate basic strategy which, when played religiously, still guarantees them a long-run edge over players? Is their goal to make sure even players who visit for their entertainment value lose their whole bankroll as fast as possible and gtfo? That would seem to me a lose-lose situation in the long term. I understand that AP's need to heed this warning more than recreational players, but really don't see how recreational players need to avoid BS plays. In the past it could have affected comps, but nowadays comps are stingy enough that they don't really enter the equation anymore.
Quote: RedJackIn threads I have read recently, there are plenty of warning messages against making certain basic strategy plays, particularly hitting soft 18, splitting 9's and doubling soft 19 (H17), so here's my question:
Have casinos gotten to the point where they would not even tolerate basic strategy which, when played religiously, still guarantees them a long-run edge over players? Is their goal to make sure even players who visit for their entertainment value lose their whole bankroll as fast as possible and gtfo? That would seem to me a lose-lose situation in the long term. I understand that AP's need to heed this warning more than recreational players, but really don't see how recreational players need to avoid BS plays. In the past it could have affected comps, but nowadays comps are stingy enough that they don't really enter the equation anymore.
I don't think they're worried about basic strategy players, like Kewlj said it is extremely rare for a ploppy to make that play. More than likely, someone doing that is a counter, or at least raises a huge red flag that the person is way way more likely than normal to be a counter. I have played blackjack for almost 700 recorded hours since I started counting and I don't think I have ever seen someone else double an A8.
Quote: AvincowYou assume that the pit knows basic strategy, which is almost always not the case. I have no fear about making this play.
Anyone fearing this play need only print a basic strategy chart from their favorite web site and take it to the table. When the hand comes up at a H17 table, consult the chart and make the play. I'd say that no one would argue with the chart but I'd be wrong. You may even win a bet from the other players although most "experts" don't usually put their money where their mouths are. Rather than looking like a counter you'll look like someone smart enough to use the internet.
Playing S17? No problem. Use the H17 chart at that table when the index play comes up. The pit will chuckle but may not tell you that you have the wrong chart and most of the players will remain clueless. That opens the door for other index plays and for the "experts" to leave you alone.
Quote: RedJackHave casinos gotten to the point where they would not even tolerate basic strategy
It's a cue to look for a bet spread.
You can flat bet as long as you want.
Quote: urbfloramsWhat is the expected win/loss % on doubling down v/not doubling down?
Stand = 0.452220
hit = 0.231045
double=0.462089
This is for 6 Deck H-17
For 2DK H-17
Stand = 0.450275
Hit = 0.232007
Double =0.464014
These numbers come from Don Schlesinger's Blackjack Attack
A decade ago when Tunica's blackjack was still great I made this play, and lost and the dealer called me "Greedy"
i started this but must pauseQuote: urbfloramsWhat is the expected win/loss % on doubling down v/not doubling down?
here is what i found and not verified.
6 decks only
this program sometimes has real ugly results
("How ugly are they?")
H17
S17
poor formatting
************************Blackjack Combinatorial Analyzer v1.60***********************
Player's Hand: 1 8
Dealer's Hand: 6
Rules: H17, Dealer Peaks
Deck Composition: Ace(24) Two(24) Three(24) Four(24) Five(24) Six(24) Seven(24) Eight(24) Nine(24) Ten(96)
******************************************************************************
Results for Standing
p-1 p0 p+1 p+1.5 EV(units) SD(units) DI(EV/SD)
0.2162464912 0.1152866599 0.6684668489 0 0.4522203577 0.8247485 0.5483130405
Results for Hitting
p-1 p0 p+1 EV(units) SD(units) DI(EV/SD)
0.3495803861 0.06979459623 0.5806250176 0.2310446315 0.9363886917 0.2467400915
Results for Doubling
p-2 p0 p+2 EV(units) SD(units) DI(EV/SD)
0.3495803861 0.06979459623 0.5806250176 0.462089263 1.872777383 0.2467400915
******************************************************************************
************************Blackjack Combinatorial Analyzer v1.60***********************
Player's Hand: 1 8
Dealer's Hand: 6
Rules: S17, Dealer Peaks
Deck Composition: Ace(24) Two(24) Three(24) Four(24) Five(24) Six(24) Seven(24) Eight(24) Nine(24) Ten(96)
******************************************************************************
Results for Standing
p-1 p0 p+1 p+1.5 EV(units) SD(units) DI(EV/SD)
0.1995704676 0.1069346672 0.6934948652 0 0.4939243976 0.8056699214 0.6130604911
Results for Hitting
p-1 p0 p+1 EV(units) SD(units) DI(EV/SD)
0.345460211 0.06894658928 0.5855931997 0.2401329887 0.934553133 0.2569495305
Results for Doubling
p-2 p0 p+2 EV(units) SD(units) DI(EV/SD)
0.345460211 0.06894658928 0.5855931997 0.4802659775 1.869106266 0.2569495305
******************************************************************************
Quote: 1BBAnyone fearing this play need only print a basic strategy chart from their favorite web site and take it to the table. When the hand comes up at a H17 table, consult the chart and make the play. I'd say that no one would argue with the chart but I'd be wrong.
BTW I've had someone say to me when I've played from "Then get another book!" Lol.
Quote: BigJerBTW I've had someone say to me when I've played from "Then get another book!" Lol.
That or, "The casinos made basic strategy."
Quote: IbeatyouracesThat or, "The casinos made basic strategy."
Not to go OT but even a dealer said that to me once or twice.
Quote: BigJerNot to go OT but even a dealer said that to me once or twice.
Just nod and agree with them :-)
-----
Have a weekly free ace coupon at one casino. I double most anything (other than 20 or 21) against a 3, 4, 5, or 6. I'm sure I'm losing EV on a lot of those plays, I just want $10 on the table rather than $5.
Quote: AvincowYou assume that the pit knows basic strategy, which is almost always not the case. I have no fear about making this play.
You are very correct that many pit folks won't even know that this is basic strategy. Unfortunately that adds to the issue. They probably do think it a play that AP's will make at certain times, (similarly to splitting 10's or doubling A9), so when they see you make this play a basic strategy play, they are associating it will AP, even though it is basic strategy. It is almost working against you that it IS a basic strat play.
Maybe your experience is different than mine, but in my experience, in general this play draws attention (especially when it wins). I am not suggesting not making it for cover reasons or anything else. I make the play regularly. I already give up more cost in the form of cover for a couple common plays that I go with 'counter's basic strategy'. I just can't afford anymore cover. (can't afford the plays that I make).
This is where short sessions comes into play. Short sessions eliminates many issue. It has been my 'saving grace' as far as achieving any kind of longevity.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThere are a few supervisors here that do have the correct H17 basic strategy chart they keep under their gaming license.
And if they pull out their chart (or know it by memory) and decide you are a basic strategy player, that too is bad. When playing rated, a good basic strategy player gets a lower rating resulting in less comps and offers than a bad player (what we call ploppies). It also is sort of the first step. If they figure you know Basic Start so well that you make this play, the next step is to see what else you know and be sure you are not moving money with count.
As I said, earlier this play leading them to think you are a BS player is probably the lesser of two evils, but it still will likely be the first step to someone taking a closer look or keeping an eye on your play (unless you are playing low limits that they just don't care about). That is what I mean when I say draws attention. I don't mean this play alone says anything.
Quote: kewljAnd if they pull out their chart (or know it by memory) and decide you are a basic strategy player, that too is bad. When playing rated, a good basic strategy player gets a lower rating resulting in less comps and offers than a bad player (what we call ploppies). It also is sort of the first step. If they figure you know Basic Start so well that you make this play, the next step is to see what else you know and be sure you are not moving money with count.
As I said, earlier this play leading them to think you are a BS player is probably the lesser of two evils, but it still will likely be the first step to someone taking a closer look or keeping an eye on your play (unless you are playing low limits that they just don't care about). That is what I mean when I say draws attention. I don't mean this play alone says anything.
I've never had it pulled it on me. The civilians though, yes when they ask what to do. Some supervisors are actually honest and helpful. Most casino employees here DO gamble at the other two casinos.
There are few if any "pro" counters in the area. Table limits just aren't good enough and too few good games.
P.S. The same goes with A,7 vs 2.
Quote: OzzyOsbourneQuote: RedJackIn threads I have read recently, there are plenty of warning messages against making certain basic strategy plays, particularly hitting soft 18, splitting 9's and doubling soft 19 (H17), so here's my question:
Have casinos gotten to the point where they would not even tolerate basic strategy which, when played religiously, still guarantees them a long-run edge over players? Is their goal to make sure even players who visit for their entertainment value lose their whole bankroll as fast as possible and gtfo? That would seem to me a lose-lose situation in the long term. I understand that AP's need to heed this warning more than recreational players, but really don't see how recreational players need to avoid BS plays. In the past it could have affected comps, but nowadays comps are stingy enough that they don't really enter the equation anymore.
I don't think they're worried about basic strategy players, like Kewlj said it is extremely rare for a ploppy to make that play. More than likely, someone doing that is a counter, or at least raises a huge red flag that the person is way way more likely than normal to be a counter. I have played blackjack for almost 700 recorded hours since I started counting and I don't think I have ever seen someone else double an A8.
FWIW, at Mystic Lake, all the PB's and most of the dealers have a strategy card taped to the back of their ID's or other things (one PB had it on the inside cover of their notebook) that shows that specific play, a lonely square of blue among all the yellow and red in that section of the chart. If you asked them for the BS play, they happily checked their card and showed you what it said. I thought that was pretty cool of them.
The game there was 6 deck, late surrender (LS not on all tables, but the one I played), RSA, DAS, D9/10/11, 3:2, H17, 80-90% pen. (dealers hand-cut 3/4 to 1/2 deck off the back). Decks were cycled out of a 6 deck shuffler into the shoe. Min/max was $10-199. They also have doubledeck with these rules. I doubt whether any of you are interested in that game for that low a max bet, so I didn't report it before, but they also had a high-limit room. I don't know what the stakes were in there.
Quote: AmleeColin and Ben from Blackjack Apprenticeship include this move in their basic strategy.
You have a A-8 against the dealer's 6. You DOUBLE instead of staying.
No doubt this one will raise eyebrows and potentially draw suspicion from the pit at a table.
I could understand this as an index play when the count is high enough, but does anyone include this as part of their basic strategy ensemble?
The places I normally play are H17 shoe games, so I double A8 vs. 6...but it definitely raises some eyebrows from fellow players.
I'm a red-chipper (max bet is usually around $75-90), and the tables I play are often populated with folks who have a...shall we say..."limited" grasp of basic strategy. Even those with a better grasp of BS will sometimes shake their heads or murmur something about hitting a 19. I generally just let it slide. I might say something like "I was just feeling lucky" (if I win the hand) or "I guess I got a little greedy" (if I lost it).
A few months back, I was playing at a casino near Chicago and doubled A8 vs. 6 and drew a 2 for a 21. Another player at my table said something like "damn, you must be countin' cards!"
Quote: CallSaulThe places I normally play are H17 shoe games, so I double A8 vs. 6...but it definitely raises some eyebrows from fellow players.
I'm a red-chipper (max bet is usually around $75-90), and the tables I play are often populated with folks who have a...shall we say..."limited" grasp of basic strategy. Even those with a better grasp of BS will sometimes shake their heads or murmur something about hitting a 19. I generally just let it slide. I might say something like "I was just feeling lucky" (if I win the hand) or "I guess I got a little greedy" (if I lost it).
A few months back, I was playing at a casino near Chicago and doubled A8 vs. 6 and drew a 2 for a 21. Another player at my table said something like "damn, you must be countin' cards!"
Player assumed you were counting "two's.
You were weren't you?
Quote: kewljAnd if they pull out their chart (or know it by memory) and decide you are a basic strategy player, that too is bad. When playing rated, a good basic strategy player gets a lower rating resulting in less comps and offers than a bad player (what we call ploppies). It also is sort of the first step. If they figure you know Basic Start so well that you make this play, the next step is to see what else you know and be sure you are not moving money with count.
As I said, earlier this play leading them to think you are a BS player is probably the lesser of two evils, but it still will likely be the first step to someone taking a closer look or keeping an eye on your play (unless you are playing low limits that they just don't care about). That is what I mean when I say draws attention. I don't mean this play alone says anything.
This is exactly what I was trying to say like 30 posts ago. Kewlj said it better.
Also I almost always play S17 tables. So the minor differences for a H17 table I'm embarrassing to say I screw up sometimes. This is one of those times. Still say it's not worth the attention.
Quote: IbeatyouracesYou'll wave off 16 vs 10 wayyyyyy more often then you'll double A,8 vs 6. Now which is going to bring more attention? I'll say this much, it was the former that got me pegged with one casino I played at.
That's why you should just always wave off 16vT
Quote: RSThat's why you should just always wave off 16vT
I do and always have. It doesn't fool everyone!
Quote: IbeatyouracesI do and always have. It doesn't fool everyone!
This is a bit foggy. Just to be clear. You stand on ALL 16 vs T's and you claim that standing on 16 vs T got you nailed?
Quote: kewljThis is a bit foggy. Just to be clear. You stand on ALL 16 vs T's and you claim that standing on 16 vs T got you nailed?
That's the play that got me figured out what I was doing. I didn't get the boot as I rarely play bj in this location. Like I said, it doesn't fool everyone.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThat's the play that got me figured out what I was doing. I didn't get the boot as I rarely play bj in this location. Like I said, it doesn't fool everyone.
yes, I get that, what I am unclear about is do you stand on all 16 vs 10's or hit some and stand on some?
Quote: kewljyes, I get that, what I am unclear about is do you stand on all 16 vs 10's or hit some and stand on some?
If I can somehow get away with it, like if the pit isn't watching and it's heads up, then yes, I'll hit. But with unknown civilians, this play just stands out the most(16 vs10), so it's best to just stand and proclaim that you always do. You'll get the normal response, "As long as you're consistent."
Quote: kewljyes, I get that, what I am unclear about is do you stand on all 16 vs 10's or hit some and stand on some?
Well now, that answer is 'it depends'.
BS, hard 16 (2 card non- compostion dependent) =hit! Vs 10
BS hard 16 vs 10 for 3 or more cards , might vary.
Counting?.., you should already know the answers!
Quote: RSIf you always stand on 16 vs T......I'm with kewlj on this one......how does that play get you nailed?
If you think supervisors don't know this, you're sadly mistaken. Some are actually AP's themselves and know the signs.
Quote: IbeatyouracesIf I can somehow get away with it, like if the pit isn't watching and it's heads up, then yes, I'll hit. But with unknown civilians, this play just stands out the most(16 vs10), so it's best to just stand and proclaim that you always do. You'll get the normal response, "As long as you're consistent."
Good. Thanks for clarifying that. So you play 'counter's basic strategy' as far as the 16 vs 10 play, eliminating playing the hand differently which is one of the bigger 'tells' of a counter.
So why is it that you think this play did you in then? I mean as counters, we give off little bits of info all over the place, regardless of how much we try not to. If you have all but eliminated this tell, by playing the same every situation, I would have to conclude it was something else, or more likely an accumulation of things, and the axe just happened to fall at a time looking like the 16 vs 10 play was responsible.
Quote: kewljGood. Thanks for clarifying that. So you play 'counter's basic strategy' as far as the 16 vs 10 play, eliminating playing the hand differently which is one of the bigger 'tells' of a counter.
So why is it that you think this play did you in then? I mean as counters, we give off little bits of info all over the place, regardless of how much we try not to. If you have all but eliminated this tell, by playing the same every situation, I would have to conclude it was something else, or more likely an accumulation of things, and the axe just happened to fall at a time looking like the 16 vs 10 play was responsible.
As I said. Probably just one of the smarter supervisors. It also just happened to occur way to often. Even I was getting frustrated getting stuck with 16 whether dealt or drawn to. This was long ago and I rarely count these days.
Quote: WingnutStand = 0.452220
hit = 0.231045
double=0.462089
These numbers come from Don Schlesinger's Blackjack Attack
I need help understanding this.
Seems to me that standing with a 19 against a dealer 6 would win more than 45% of the time (.452220). Give me a 19, soft or otherwise, every time against a dealer 6 and over time I go broke? The issue of doubling aside, it's got to be one of the best places to be - 19 against a 6.
Hitting the soft 19 ought to have the same outcome, doubled or not, since there is no circumstance (is there??) where you'd take a fourth card. The only difference is if there's one or two units on the table.
I would think that in fact doubling the soft 19 is "greedy", in that the added risk of poorer hands is offset by the increased win when you draw an A-2-10value on the double.
So maybe I don't understand what those numbers represent.
What I'm not getting is IBYA is saying he got nailed for always standing 16 vs Ten. This would lead me to believe that always standing (in his circumstance) generated MORE HEAT than by switching up his hit/stand based on the count. Surely switching between hitting/standing [based on the count] would generate more heat than by always standing.....at least, I really cannot imagine always standing on 16 vs Ten got him more heat than if he were to be hitting in negative counts and standing in positive counts.
I'm sure some supervisors are AP's, but I know a majority of them are not. Plus, what added benefit do you get by sometimes hitting and sometimes standing...? Unless you decide to sometimes hit in positive counts and stand in negative counts (which is the inverse of the proper EV play) ?
Quote: RSI really cannot imagine always standing on 16 vs Ten got him more heat than if he were to be hitting in negative counts and standing in positive counts.
The only case I can think of is if someone in the pit didn't witness standing in both negative and positive counts. Suppose they only watched a small window of play, knew there was a plus count and saw the player stand on 16 vs10, along with a couple other key plays, like taking insurance as well as larger bets. A sweaty place with a short rope like el cortez or south point, would probably make the backoff without having those corresponding negative situational plays to compare
