Dealer Error; Pit Decision
Heads-up with a $50 bet out I was dealt a 9-2. Dealer was showing a 5. A fairly easy decision. I placed the matching $50 out for the double. The dealer inexplicably flips her card (another 5) and--- just as I say "I doubled!"---proceeds to hit her hand with a 10 for a 20 total.
I am still sitting there with 9-2, and my 10 is sitting in her hand. First line supervisor has no idea what to do. Second line supervisor comes and says "we never back up cards." I ague for a while and explain that she simply put the card on the wrong part of the table and it should be placed on the right part of the table (my hand). Won't go for it. Won't burn the 10.
I am given two options 1) play the hand with the Dealer's 20, or 2) withdraw from the hand and pull bet back. They ignore any further arguments. I obviously withdraw from the hand. Quite dissatisfied.
What should the house have done? Does anybody have experience or insight with this problem? I'd understand a bit better if the card went to another player (who doesn't want to lose their good card), but it went to the dealer.
Quote: bbvk05I was in a local haunt yesterday playing a 3 deck game with very fine penetration :-0.
Heads-up with a $50 bet out I was dealt a 9-2. Dealer was showing a 5. A fairly easy decision. I placed the matching $50 out for the double. The dealer inexplicably flips her card (another 5) and--- just as I say "I doubled!"---proceeds to hit her hand with a 10 for a 20 total.
I am still sitting there with 9-2, and my 10 is sitting in her hand. First line supervisor has no idea what to do. Second line supervisor comes and says "we never back up cards." I ague for a while and explain that she simply put the card on the wrong part of the table and it should be placed on the right part of the table (my hand). Won't go for it. Won't burn the 10.
I am given two options 1) play the hand with the Dealer's 20, or 2) withdraw from the hand and pull bet back. They ignore any further arguments. I obviously withdraw from the hand. Quite dissatisfied.
What should the house have done? Does anybody have experience or insight with this problem? I'd understand a bit better if the card went to another player (who doesn't want to lose their good card), but it went to the dealer.
Happens a lot. No they won't back up the card even playing heads up. Best option was #2, pull out of the hand.
Quote: IbeatyouracesHappens a lot. No they won't back up the card even playing heads up. Best option was #2, pull out of the hand.
I've played quite a bit for a casual (100 hours a year for at least 10 years)--- I've never seen this particular error.
Quote: bbvk05I've played quite a bit for a casual (100 hours a year for at least 10 years)--- I've never seen this particular error.
I averaged over 100 hours a month when I played.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI averaged over 100 hours a month when I played.
I have no doubt of your experience, but wouldn't something common happen a bit more than once in 100,000+ hands?
ZCore13
We have discussed before where from a 'goodwill' standard, it is really in the casinos best interest to offer a favorable outcome, and doing so really costs them little. In many cases I have seen them give the player the option to pull out (as they did here), but then if the player decides to go ahead and play and loses they declare it a push. But of course they don't tell you that until afterwards. That may have been what would have happened here as well. Or maybe not. ??
But under these particular circumstances, JUST the option to pull out, doesn't seem like all that fair of a decision from the player's point of view. He lost a very favorable opportunity through no fault of his own, due to a mistake by the dealer.
Quote: kewljKudos to Zcore13.
We have discussed before where from a 'goodwill' standard, it is really in the casinos best interest to offer a favorable outcome, and doing so really costs them little. In many cases I have seen them give the player the option to pull out (as they did here), but then if the player decides to go ahead and play and loses they declare it a push. But of course they don't tell you that until afterwards. That may have been what would have happened here as well. Or maybe not. ??
But under these particular circumstances, JUST the option to pull out, doesn't seem like all that fair of a decision from the player's point of view. He lost a very favorable opportunity through no fault of his own, due to a mistake by the dealer.
There's no way they would have given the post-hand push. I got into it a lot more vehemently than I should have.
From someone who makes these calls on a consistent basis, we're not going to tell you that you get the push, lest you take advantage of the situation. Cards don't get backed up due to players who like to take shots. Giving you the option to back out of the hand in what appears to be a disfavorable situation is more than fair.Quote: kewljKudos to Zcore13.
But of course they don't tell you that until afterwards. That may have been what would have happened here as well.
Quote: MaxPenIt is against the law in Nevada to back a card up, so I have been told by more than one pit critter.
This is a standard line. I've often wondered if it was true or not. I have seen cards backed up before, earlier in my career, I just don't remember where though. I think Vegas, but can't say for sure.
The incident I remember involved cards getting backed up to involving 2 players and the dealer. I don't remember the exact details but player 1 and player 2 both got cards that made their hands, which has previously been dealt to player 2 and dealer, and the dealer then drew a new second card which then was unfavorable (a bust card as opposed to his previous 10 which went to player 2). The pit stopped the action right there, before the dealer turned his hole card and asked if everyone was happing with this outcome, which he KNEW they were. I remember thinking at the time, that according to the no back up rule, you can't do this. :/
Quote: bbvk05I was in a local haunt yesterday playing a 3 deck game with very fine penetration :-0.
Heads-up with a $50 bet out I was dealt a 9-2. Dealer was showing a 5. A fairly easy decision. I placed the matching $50 out for the double. The dealer inexplicably flips her card (another 5) and--- just as I say "I doubled!"---proceeds to hit her hand with a 10 for a 20 total.
I am still sitting there with 9-2, and my 10 is sitting in her hand. First line supervisor has no idea what to do. Second line supervisor comes and says "we never back up cards." I ague for a while and explain that she simply put the card on the wrong part of the table and it should be placed on the right part of the table (my hand). Won't go for it. Won't burn the 10.
I am given two options 1) play the hand with the Dealer's 20, or 2) withdraw from the hand and pull bet back. They ignore any further arguments. I obviously withdraw from the hand. Quite dissatisfied.
What should the house have done? Does anybody have experience or insight with this problem? I'd understand a bit better if the card went to another player (who doesn't want to lose their good card), but it went to the dealer.
As long as humans deal the game there will be mistakes. Like poor play and all the other variables, some will help and some will hurt. Next card information can help. For example, isn't it nice to double your hard 17 when you know the next card is a 4? It happens. I take dealer mistakes in stride as part of the game. In most casinos backing up the cards is prohibited. My experience has been that the pit will go out of their way to make things right in these cases but they certainly aren't going to break the law or go against policy. The only thing arguing does is call attention to yourself and you don't want that.
Now tell me about this 3 deck game. I don't think I've ever seen one. Why didn't you double 11 vs 10? Was the count negative? :-)
Quote: PGBusterFrom someone who makes these calls on a consistent basis, we're not going to tell you that you get the push, lest you take advantage of the situation. Cards don't get backed up due to players who like to take shots. Giving you the option to back out of the hand in what appears to be a disfavorable situation is more than fair.
I understand that it would not be disclosed ahead of time, that you get the push. That's why I said maybe it would have, maybe not??
The option to back out of an unfavorable situation is fair. But in this case the player lost a favorable situation which then became unfavorable. I am not sure JUST the option to back out was fair to him. He lost a golden opportunity due to no fault of his own, specifically the fault of the dealer. I don't know how else it could be remedied, other than Zcore's method that would really be fair.
Quote: 1BBAs long as humans deal the game there will be mistakes. Like poor play and all the other variables, some will help and some will hurt. Next card information can help. For example, isn't it nice to double your hard 17 when you know the next card is a 4? It happens. I take dealer mistakes in stride as part of the game. In most casinos backing up the cards is prohibited. My experience has been that the pit will go out of their way to make things right in these cases but they certainly aren't going to break the law or go against policy. The only thing arguing does is call attention to yourself and you don't want that.
Now tell me about this 3 deck game. I don't think I've ever seen one. Why didn't you double 11 vs 10? Was the count negative?
He did double the 11 vs 10. He said he placed the matching $50 wager out, but received no card. The next card out, which was a 10, went to the dealer to make her 20.
I too was wondering about the 3 deck game. Never heard of such, but my play rotation is very limited (Vegas and just a few other places in US).
Quote: kewljThis is a standard line. I've often wondered if it was true or not. I have seen cards backed up before, earlier in my career, I just don't remember where though. I think Vegas, but can't say for sure. :/
Does anyone know the definitive answer as to whether or not it is against the law for a casino in Nevada to back a card up? I have been unable to find out myself and surprised KewlJ does not know as well. Is there a source to locate the laws regarding table games in Nevada?
I will not go into particulars, but I have a personal experience of being paid by a casino when they violated a law. I didn't even know the law but found out from a member here why I got paid off, so to speak relating to that situation. So needless to say I am always curious to know the details.
Quote: bbvk05I am given two options 1) play the hand with the Dealer's 20, or 2) withdraw from the hand and pull bet back. They ignore any further arguments. I obviously withdraw from the hand. Quite dissatisfied.
The fairest point would be to reimburse you the EV of 11 vs 5. Instead you got two free dealer cards AND the option to back from your hand - which is way more valuable than the EV of 11 vs 5.
What do you want more ? If you want the card that went to the dealers hand you are greedy in exploiting the situation.
Suppose the 10 and 5 would be switched, would you equally insist to get the 5 as the double down card that went by mistake to the dealer ?
Quote: kewljHe did double the 11 vs 10. He said he placed the matching $50 wager out, but received no card. The next card out, which was a 10, went to the dealer to make her 20.
I too was wondering about the 3 deck game. Never heard of such, but my play rotation is very limited (Vegas and just a few other places in US).
That was another one of my poor attempts at humor, asking if he would double against a known 20 with a 30% or so chance of receiving a 10. I almost thought that he was 3 decks into a shoe with the 3 deck reference. He's a longtime good member and poster so he'll probably clear it up for us.
I've been paid for every dealer mistake that you can imagine but I never think that it is owed to me. Just this week someone complained that the dealer forgot to burn a card, not a requirement that I know of, and the whole table was paid. Of course no one complained until the hand was over and the results known.
For example, one might pay out when it was $50 doubled to $100. What if it was $200 doubled to $400? What if it was $500 doubled to $1000?
My hunch is that a $100 payout is probably near the top end of where they would continue being so generous.
Quote: cyrusHypothetical tangent - assume a pit boss has a general policy of remedying errors (where the player should have had +EV but lost it) by simply paying the player, as a gesture of goodwill. At what $$ value would the value of the goodwill (repeat / continued business) be balanced out by the sheer monetary loss of the single event?
For example, one might pay out when it was $50 doubled to $100. What if it was $200 doubled to $400? What if it was $500 doubled to $1000?
My hunch is that a $100 payout is probably near the top end of where they would continue being so generous.
To me they are all the same. Just 1 bet (2 units) for the player. I would pay them all. Any Staff that thinks a few hundred dollars is worth a negative experience when it was obvious the player probably had a 90% chance of winning had the card been dealt properly is an idiot.
Pay the player. Tell the dealer don't worry about it and move on.
ZCore13
Quote: bbvk05I am given two options 1) play the hand with the Dealer's 20, or 2) withdraw from the hand and pull bet back. They ignore any further arguments. I obviously withdraw from the hand. Quite dissatisfied.
As others have said, given the option to freely withdraw against a dealer 20, that's the right play. The basic strategy for double exposure situations says to hit, but they might not allow you to pull back the double bet, and that strategy doesn't account for the free surrender option.
Quote: bbvk05What should the house have done? Does anybody have experience or insight with this problem? I'd understand a bit better if the card went to another player (who doesn't want to lose their good card), but it went to the dealer.
Doesn't matter what any of us think they should have done. I'm guessing that what they did is consistent with their policy. All we can do is attempt to infer their policy from their actions, and develop appropriate plays for the situations we expect might come up.
And maybe decide to chill out a bit - pissing off the suits is often -EV.
In the UK I've seen them back up cards - and it also applies if the card is found face up. But from the wizard's answer it looks as if in Vegas, while a casino might allow the card to be put on the correct hand if no-one objected , the normal rule is it is burnt.Quote: Wizard...I've heard the policy about not backing up cards before....The general principle is that once a card goes to the wrong hand it becomes tainted....the casino was just following procedure of burning tainted cards.
Quote: 1BBThat was another one of my poor attempts at humor, asking if he would double against a known 20 with a 30% or so chance of receiving a 10.
I wouldn't double against a known 17 or higher.
If there was another player at third base and THAT player received the 10, I really cannot back up that card. I would leave that 1- where it was, instruct the dealer to give the first player the next card out of the shoe, and immediately offer both players a chance to abandon the hand given what they have seen so far. If the third base player busted due to the 10, his bet would be refunded.
Quote: charliepatrickbtw it's a bit of a coincidence that the same cards were on this https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/gambling/705-blackjack-misdeal-on-double-down-with-one-player-at-table/ In the UK I've seen them back up cards - and it also applies if the card is found face up. But from the wizard's answer it looks as if in Vegas, while a casino might allow the card to be put on the correct hand if no-one objected , the normal rule is it is burnt.
Total coincidence, I'd never seen that thread.
Quote: 1BBThat was another one of my poor attempts at humor, asking if he would double against a known 20 with a 30% or so chance of receiving a 10. I almost thought that he was 3 decks into a shoe with the 3 deck reference. He's a longtime good member and poster so he'll probably clear it up for us.
I've been paid for every dealer mistake that you can imagine but I never think that it is owed to me. Just this week someone complained that the dealer forgot to burn a card, not a requirement that I know of, and the whole table was paid. Of course no one complained until the hand was over and the results known.
Kewlj is right on all counts.
Not as bad as trying to count at Bighorn in North Las Vegas though. I think that place exists solely for Hispanics to get drunk and blow their paycheck. You have no idea how badly you're going to stand out unless you try it once. I don't even remember if they have green chips in the rack lol.
Quote: mcallister3200
Not as bad as trying to count at Bighorn in North Las Vegas though. I think that place exists solely for Hispanics to get drunk and blow their paycheck. You have no idea how badly you're going to stand out unless you try it once. I don't even remember if they have green chips in the rack lol.
Bighorn. Been there...done that! I just couldn't let those $10 matchplays in ACG go to waste. They do have green, but if you are betting green, watch out. they have to call in extra security. I remember thinking I was the only person in the casino not speaking Spanish. made me wish I had taken Spanish class a little more seriously.
Are all casinos in Arizona native run or native controlled?
Quote: MaxPenNot much different than Longhorn.
I do not like the vibe in Longhorn.
Quote: MaxPenNot much different than Longhorn.
Disagree. Bighorn is in a Latino neighborhood in North Vegas and the times I have been there, there was not a single person that wasn't Latino, customer or employee and speaking spanish.
Longhorn isn't all Latinos. There are the low-rolling boulder highway area crowds of white folks that visit regularly. Many dealers are white.
I hope it doesn't sound like I have any issues with Latinos...I don't. We are just talking about standing out like a sort thumb and that's me at Bighorn. I don't feel that way at Longhorn. At Longhorn, I just feel like I stand out because I have more than $26 in my wallet. Lol.
Quote: kewljDisagree. Bighorn is in a Latino neighborhood in North Vegas and the times I have been there, there was not a single person that wasn't Latino, customer or employee and speaking spanish.
Longhorn isn't all Latinos. There are the low-rolling boulder highway area crowds of white folks that visit regularly. Many dealers are white.
I hope it doesn't sound like I have any issues with Latinos...I don't. We are just talking about standing out like a sort thumb and that's me at Bighorn. I don't feel that way at Longhorn. At Longhorn, I just feel like I stand out because I have more than $26 in my wallet. Lol.
I guess you're right.
The exception might be a Friday night right before the paycheck drawing. Yes, I made that mistake once. Never again.....lol
Quote: IbeatyouracesIs Longhorn still giving away a cookie to new sign ups? Best deal in town!! LOL
I can say that once every couple months there's a good machine play opportunity there.
Quote: IbeatyouracesIs Longhorn still giving away a cookie to new sign ups? Best deal in town!! LOL
Last time I went in there I saw the cookies in a basket behind the players club. I'm pretty sure they'll give you one if you ask, but then the cookie won't be so special.
You guys wanna know a place worse then Longhorn/Bighorn, I was nearby Nellis AFB and stopped by a VERY small casino by Cheyenne Ave and the I15 which featured one blackjack table, and like 6 machines. No cookies for signing up for a players card :(
Quote: djatc
You guys wanna know a place worse then Longhorn/Bighorn, I was nearby Nellis AFB and stopped by a VERY small casino by Cheyenne Ave and the I15 which featured one blackjack table, and like 6 machines.
Geez....I have a blackjack table and 2 machines, 1 VP, 1 slot, in my office. LOL. So what was the name of this joint?
Imagine that, a greedy tribal casino. Who'd a thunk it.
Quote: mcallister3200Lucky club?
No it was across the street from lucky club though. I can't even find it on Google maps its probably a front for Mexican cartels.
Yes, I'm very curious about this as well. I don't think they have a license...Quote: djatcNo it was across the street from lucky club though. I can't even find it on Google maps its probably a front for Mexican cartels.
Very quick drink service, too. Your kind of place, Mission :)Quote: Mission146I actually think the Longhorn is pretty cool, I was only in there briefly, but it just seemed like a really fun (albeit noisy) crowd getting plowed and having a ball for small stakes. You have to love the double on any number of cards, too.
Speaking of Hispanics, I just ordered a Michelada for the first time from the cocktail waitress at The Linq. That was an...interesting drink.
No doubt about my kind of place. Hopefully, after we do the Eastside/Sam's/Longhorn coupons, we'll have a two or three hour Blackjack session.
