Ace-5 count modified question

Greetings,

Short version:
Is it possible to adjust the counted card for the Ace-5 count without significantly affecting the advantage it gives? Like say, counting kings instead of aces, or 4s instead of 5s?

Long version:
Just wanted to say this website is amazing.

So I'm an "advanced amateur" in that I very rarely don't make perfect plays (likely distracted or tired, usually a sign for me to leave), and I wanted to incorporate card counting. However, I play for fun - as I tell the dealer/other players at the table, "I'm not here to win money, I'm here to try to lose money as slowly as possible." And I found card counting tedious and not fun after a good bit of practice, as I have to focus and not "have fun" with the other players and make sure I don't get distracted, etc. So I decided to settle on the Wizard's Ace-5 count as a good "middle ground", as it's not nearly as difficult to do.

So my question comes in that can I substitute the card I count with a similar high or low card, say Kings instead of Aces. The reason for this is the random side bets at the casino are often based on cards that aren't quite aces (for instance, my favorite casino has a weird system of paying 4:1 if you get 20, and the pay table goes up if the cards are suited, again if kings specifically, and even further up if you draw two kings of spades). Yes, I am aware that the side bets are absolutely abysmal (I calculated a roughly 70% house edge), but I'm there for fun, and it'd be neat if I could combine my card counting with that to go, "Hrmm, we're halfway through this shoe and I've only seen one King. Maybe I'll toss a dollar on there, why not."

Thanks for any advice!

Hey Quizart! Welcome to our forums. It is definitely an amazing site (as well as the Wizards main odds site - wizardofodds.com) with a lot of information for those whom seek it. I've got a couple of thoughts from reading your opening post, and I'll list them in no particular order:

1) If your'e going to spend any amount of time learning any kind of counting system, why not just simple learn Hi/Low? It's really not much harder than an Ace-5 count, but it provides a lot more benefit. Not to mention, of the people whom do count cards, I'd take an educated guess that at least 75% of them use Hi/Low. Thus, your resources on the web and replies for questions will be plentiful, whereas you may not always find your answers with other less popular counts. The reason you found it harder and that you had to focus more was because you didn't practice enough. The reason I can say this with great confidence is I can count in my sleep, and actually do (after a long night of counting sometimes I'll dream I'm still at the table counting =p). If you put enough practice in to it, you can count the entire table in a fraction of a second with little effort to none at all. I have no issues holding multiple conversations, drinking, and generally actually having a good time whilst counting cards and playing perfectly. If you're still up for it, my suggestion would be to put some more time in to it. It takes a month or two of intense training, but after that, you're pretty much set for life like riding a bicycle =). If you feel you want to go down that road, please feel free to check out my comprehensive A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack thread.

2) As for your question, no, you can't simply toss a king instead of an ace in to the equation. The reason being they affect the game quite differently and there's a reason the Ace-5 count specifically targets the aces and fives. The effect of card removal these cards carry is extremely important (since you get paid extra on blackjacks, which requires an ace, and since the dealer MUST hit 16 and in those situations a 5 is the best possible card the dealer can draw).

Now, if you were swapping a K for a Q, then that would be fine because the cards are for all other purposes, equals. However, there are big differences between an Ace and a 10 valued card (as mentioned above).

3) What you're referring to is the Kings Bounty side bet. This is a very high house edge (23%!!!) side bet that is actually quite beatable =). However, since the goal of this side bet is to get 20, obviously tracking the 10's are much more important... So with a little research, I'm sure you can find a count that tracks the TENS. Oh well there, I already said it, so... The "tens count" is designed to specifically put more emphasis on tracking 10's. The tens count can be found all over the internet. The last thing I'll mention is that I'd be very willing to bet that the side bet is actually worth a lot more than the blackjack game you're playing ;). Food for thought.

Again, welcome to the forums!

Quizart,

Welcome! Good question, thanks for starting the discussion.

Romes,

Thanks for the responses. I figured I couldn't adjust Ace-5, but didn't think about the specifics (5's being dangerous when dealer has 6), so it makes sense you can't really change the cards. Thanks for the advice.

I practiced a decent bit with the Hi-Lo count, and while I "can" do it (I have a pretty good head for numbers), honestly I just don't have fun when doing it - too much concentration required, and I'd much rather use an easy system like Ace-5 and accept that I'll slowly lose money. Nonetheless, I'll reconsider it and practice it when I'm playing online poker and see if I can get it to second nature over time.

I'll look into the ten count though, that will probably fit well with the side bet, and doesn't look much worse than Hi-Lo.

Out of curiosity, the other casino I play at has the 21+3 Xtreme side bet, which is similarly rough (13.39%) - can you think of any counting system that would line up well for that side bet? I kind of doubt it, but thought it would be worth asking.

from my experience, I prepared for a trip by doing about an hour of practice learning the A-5 count. very quickly I was at a point where I forgot the count, as it is very difficult to play the game and count at the same time. I disregarded the count and just played, having fun.

Later on, I'd continue practicing, and putting literally hundreds of hours in practicing. It is now easy to keep the Hi-Lo count. But you need to put in the time if you want this to work. Don't expect easy results from trying an A5 count or K-5 count.

As far as the longer answer to your question, there are very few sidebets that are beatable by a side-count. A likely estimate is that, played perfectly, you might reduce a 5% house edge to a 2% house edge on a high variance side bet... it just won't be worth the time and effort. However, using A-5 to play better blackjack could definitely be worth it, and moreso for Hi-Lo.

Cheers, good luck and have fun.

I would just stick to the a-5 and do separate side counts. A-5is so easy that side counts shouldn't be difficult either

Quote: Quizart

Romes,

Thanks for the responses. I figured I couldn't adjust Ace-5, but didn't think about the specifics (5's being dangerous when dealer has 6), so it makes sense you can't really change the cards. Thanks for the advice.

I practiced a decent bit with the Hi-Lo count, and while I "can" do it (I have a pretty good head for numbers), honestly I just don't have fun when doing it - too much concentration required, and I'd much rather use an easy system like Ace-5 and accept that I'll slowly lose money. Nonetheless, I'll reconsider it and practice it when I'm playing online poker and see if I can get it to second nature over time.

I'll look into the ten count though, that will probably fit well with the side bet, and doesn't look much worse than Hi-Lo.

Out of curiosity, the other casino I play at has the 21+3 Xtreme side bet, which is similarly rough (13.39%) - can you think of any counting system that would line up well for that side bet? I kind of doubt it, but thought it would be worth asking.

Welcome to the forum Quizart, your experience in trying to find a count that works for you, is very typical. Also your attempt to make the transition from recreational player to playing with an advantage is typical as well. I struggled with the same issues you are for quite a while. I "could do" the hi-lo count in my dining room a long time before I could do it consistently in a casino setting. I also related to your "I can do it, but not while I'm having a good time" thing as well. Took me a long time before I could have a cocktail and chat up the dealer and keep the count. Now it's like breathing, you just do it. I find myself counting the cards when I'm playing 7 card stud with my buddies. It's just automatic, after a while. If you keep at it, it really does get easier. In my opinion it's definitely worth the time you'll put in, even as a recreational player who just wants to be as good a BJ player as you can. So good luck and go get em.

Quote: Quizart

Romes,

Thanks for the responses. I figured I couldn't adjust Ace-5, but didn't think about the specifics (5's being dangerous when dealer has 6), so it makes sense you can't really change the cards. Thanks for the advice.

I practiced a decent bit with the Hi-Lo count, and while I "can" do it (I have a pretty good head for numbers), honestly I just don't have fun when doing it - too much concentration required, and I'd much rather use an easy system like Ace-5 and accept that I'll slowly lose money. Nonetheless, I'll reconsider it and practice it when I'm playing online poker and see if I can get it to second nature over time.

I'll look into the ten count though, that will probably fit well with the side bet, and doesn't look much worse than Hi-Lo.

Out of curiosity, the other casino I play at has the 21+3 Xtreme side bet, which is similarly rough (13.39%) - can you think of any counting system that would line up well for that side bet? I kind of doubt it, but thought it would be worth asking.

As others stated there are actually very few beatable side counts. While "technically" the 21+3 is beatable with yet another specialized system, it's beatable at a rate of like $4/hour max betting when you should. It's completely NOT worth it.

Honestly, if you want to just have fun and be profitable (as in your don't see yourself going all AP anytime soon) I'd recommend learning the tens count and attack your side bet. This way you can literally just play basic strategy on the BJ, no worry about how much to bet, etc, and you can also be profitable from your side bet... At least enough to cancel out your basic strategy losses. A small side note.. If you're playing a $10 table, when you hit the index to bet the kings bounty, I would also raise my BJ bet at bit. If you'er going to bet $25 on the side bet, then bet at least $25 on the BJ hand too. The Tens count 'can' be used for actual blackjack and counting, though it's slightly less powerful than other systems.. but none the less, just use it for the side bet and you should be able to pull away even or with a small advantage in your favor... =).

Quote: Quizart

Romes,

Thanks for the responses. I figured I couldn't adjust Ace-5, but didn't think about the specifics (5's being dangerous when dealer has 6), so it makes sense you can't really change the cards. Thanks for the advice.

I practiced a decent bit with the Hi-Lo count, and while I "can" do it (I have a pretty good head for numbers), honestly I just don't have fun when doing it - too much concentration required, and I'd much rather use an easy system like Ace-5 and accept that I'll slowly lose money. Nonetheless, I'll reconsider it and practice it when I'm playing online poker and see if I can get it to second nature over time.

I'll look into the ten count though, that will probably fit well with the side bet, and doesn't look much worse than Hi-Lo.

Out of curiosity, the other casino I play at has the 21+3 Xtreme side bet, which is similarly rough (13.39%) - can you think of any counting system that would line up well for that side bet? I kind of doubt it, but thought it would be worth asking.

Is true count conversion the problem with Hi-Lo? Look in to an unbalanced count that eliminates that step. Red 7 or KO are not difficult to learn and unlike Ace 5, which I have nothing good to say about, will get you the money. How are the rules in your neck of the woods?