Casinos that early shuffle 'Hot' shoes
Automated card-reading technology has known abuse potential in that it can be used to simplify the practice of preferential shuffling — having the dealer reshuffle the cards whenever the odds favor the players.
...vendors consider real-time notification to surveillance that a shoe is "hot" to be an important product feature.
so the shuffler reads the cards as it's dealt from the shoe.
when the count isn't in the casinos favor, they shuffle the shoe early.
knowing the shoe is Hot to inform the pitboss to scrutinize that table more closely is one thing.
To early shuffle is another!
which casinos early shuffle Hot shoes?
Quote: 100xOddshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_counting#Technology_for_detecting_card_counters
Automated card-reading technology has known abuse potential in that it can be used to simplify the practice of preferential shuffling — having the dealer reshuffle the cards whenever the odds favor the players.
...vendors consider real-time notification to surveillance that a shoe is "hot" to be an important product feature.
so the shuffler reads the cards as it's dealt from the shoe.
when the count isn't in the casinos favor, they shuffle the shoe early.
knowing the shoe is Hot to inform the pitboss to scrutinize that table more closely is one thing.
To early shuffle is another!
which casinos early shuffle Hot shoes?
This issue has already been addressed here in Nevada in the 'Mindplay' case. The Mindplay technology had the ability to track both cards played along with players wagers. Early shuffle could be called when the shoe was favorable to players and/or when players were making large bets, which could have also been used to thwart shuffle and Ace trackers. The casinos said they weren't using it for that purpose, but rather using it to more accurately track players bet patterns for the purposes of comps.
The ruling was that they could use this technology but with a delay, so they couldn't early shuffle in real time. I forget the exact delay, 15 rounds or 20 rounds or something. This would allow them to still use the technology for the purpose they claimed, but not to CHEAT by early shuffling and alter the outcome. Funny thing.....after this ruling, tracking the player's bets for purposes of comps, no longer seemed that important and MindPlay just faded away.
If shuffle machines have that same ability, it should be covered by this ruling, but at some point, the casino commission or a judge will have to consider this case specifically. Probably not until more publicity and/or someone brings a case to court.
Quote: 100xOddsso the shuffler reads the cards as it's dealt from the shoe.
On a one2six?
I'm pretty sure there's a reader in the iTable type shoes.
Personally, I'm more worried about the pitch games without a shuffle card. Sometimes the dealer knows, and sometimes the dealer is just superstitious. I heard one say that she was trying to help us out, because while there were maybe enough cards for another round, she was pretty sure she was going to deal herself a blackjack since a bunch of little cards had just come out.
Quote: DieterOn a one2six?
I'm pretty sure there's a reader in the iTable type shoes.
Personally, I'm more worried about the pitch games without a shuffle card. Sometimes the dealer knows, and sometimes the dealer is just superstitious. I heard one say that she was trying to help us out, because while there were maybe enough cards for another round, she was pretty sure she was going to deal herself a blackjack since a bunch of little cards had just come out.
Unfortunately her logic is backwards. You want a deck rich in aces and big cards because while you and the dealer are equally likely to get blackjack. When the dealer gets BJ you pay him even money, but when you get it he pays you 3:2.
Quote: bigfoot66Unfortunately her logic is backwards.
I'm well aware.
She thought she was doing us a favor. The civilians at the table didn't mind.
There were two of us at the table who were not pleased.
Quote: 100xOdds...which casinos early shuffle Hot shoes?
Um, hopefully none. This would be illegal as it's altering the element of chance.
Quote: RomesUm, hopefully none. This would be illegal as it's altering the element of chance.
The way I usually see it, it's on a pitch game without a shuffle card, where they shuffle every dealer change.
They just screw up on the break schedule sometimes, more dealer breaks on a table than typical, which seems to correlate with a big spread and a deck running well.
That's a grey area. Disagreeable, but still a grey area.
Shuffling early when there's a shuffle card is distinctly cheating, unless there's a darn good reason. On a dealt-from-hand game, worry if the dealer fumbles and drops the deck more than once a week. It seems like it would be hard to manufacture a reason on-the-fly to dump a shoe - the only reason I've seen is a tainted deck, where one or more cards from the other deck get commingled in the batch shuffler.
Quote: DieterThe way I usually see it, it's on a pitch game without a shuffle card, where they shuffle every dealer change.
They just screw up on the break schedule sometimes, more dealer breaks on a table than typical, which seems to correlate with a big spread and a deck running well.
That's a grey area. Disagreeable, but still a grey area.
Shuffling early when there's a shuffle card is distinctly cheating, unless there's a darn good reason. On a dealt-from-hand game, worry if the dealer fumbles and drops the deck more than once a week. It seems like it would be hard to manufacture a reason on-the-fly to dump a shoe - the only reason I've seen is a tainted deck, where one or more cards from the other deck get commingled in the batch shuffler.
Asked and answered; see the other thread:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/22382-what-constitutes-cheating/#post464868
Quote: MathExtremistAsked and answered; see the other thread:
I'm just saying there are valid reasons to shuffle up or change cards out mid-shoe.
Absent one of those reasons, it's valid to think that cheating may be going on.
It's quite unusual to see someone dump their drink on the shoe. If it happens twice, and both times when things get unusually hot... something may be going on.
It's pretty obvious if they shuffle a shoe before the cut card comes out. That should be obviously perceived as cheating. I'm more concerned about fabricated convenient excuses to shuffle up when there's an ulterior motive. That could get hinky.
Quote: DieterIt's pretty obvious if they shuffle a shoe before the cut card comes out. That should be obviously perceived as cheating. I'm more concerned about fabricated convenient excuses to shuffle up when there's an ulterior motive. That could get hinky.
"Should be" is exactly the argument that was rejected in New Jersey where the house explicitly has the right to shuffle after any hand:
13:69F-2.5 Shuffle and cut of the cards
(a) Immediately prior to commencement of play, unless the cards were preshuffled pursuant to N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18(r), after any round of play as may be determined by the casino licensee and after each shoe of cards is dealt, the dealer shall shuffle the cards so that they are randomly intermixed.
http://www.nj.gov/oag/ge/docs/Regulations/CHAPTER69F.pdf
Quote: MathExtremist"Should be" is exactly the argument that was rejected in New Jersey where the house explicitly has the right to shuffle after any hand:
13:69F-2.5 Shuffle and cut of the cards
(a) Immediately prior to commencement of play, unless the cards were preshuffled pursuant to N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18(r), after any round of play as may be determined by the casino licensee and after each shoe of cards is dealt, the dealer shall shuffle the cards so that they are randomly intermixed.
http://www.nj.gov/oag/ge/docs/Regulations/CHAPTER69F.pdf
... and if you're not counting, it doesn't significantly matter.
... and if you are counting, you notice. And if they have an excuse, maybe they're not trying to hose you. And if they're being blatant about it and looking for a reaction from you to flag you as a counter and short-shoe you from here on, you should just sit there, shut up, play on, and maybe they give you good shoes again.
There are a whole lot of places that aren't covered by New Jersey law, that can probably write their own laws. A lot of us play in some of those places.
Knowing what to look for when the house is trying to steer the edge further their way is probably more useful than simply saying "they have the right to shuffle after any round and it's technically not cheating in this jurisdiction".
Quote: Dieter... and if you're not counting, it doesn't significantly matter.
Really? I'd think the opposite. What is the increase in house edge from the average preferential shuffle, vs. top-of-the-deck basic strategy, for a non-counter? And what is the average gross monthly handle from those non-counters? I think if you multiplied through, the incremental revenue from non-counters due to preferential shuffling would dwarf the incremental revenue from counters, probably by more than 100x. Don't think of the impact in terms of individual EV, think about impact in terms of operator revenue and effect on the gaming public as a whole.
You've seen what happened in New Jersey when an individual card counter attempted to sue based on the impact to him. The gaming commissions have a duty to protect the integrity of gaming. If someone's going to file another lawsuit to get the courts to weigh in on the legality of preferential shuffling, the question presented should relate to the public impact. I don't think any court will have any sympathy toward an advantage player in any jurisdiction. But there may be an argument to be made that preferential shuffling violates the integrity of gaming for the non-counter, exactly the portion of the public that should be protected from such actions.
Quote: MathExtremistWhat is the increase in house edge from the average preferential shuffle, vs. top-of-the-deck basic strategy, for a non-counter?
When do they shuffle?
All I can base my suppositions on is what I might do if I were inclined to preferentially shuffle. If it's a bunch of recreational players flat betting, there's little risk to the house, so no need to waste the time shuffling. If the count only goes a little warm, there isn't enough exposure to worry about.
If there's a skilled player with a sizable bankroll on the table and the count swings massively positive, that's the time to potentially worry. Fortunately, it doesn't happen often. That's three parts that need to come together before I even think about exercising a preferential shuffle.
Shuffling up against a bunch of flat betting civilians, no matter the count, is bad advertising. Let them have a hot run, let them lose many other times trying to relive this perfect shoe.
There's a corollary - if all the players leave the table when the count tanks, and house policy is to shuffle on a dead game, the house loses out on some of their situations of unusual advantage.
I just shrug my shoulders and say it all balances out for the most part, and trust in the percentage.
