Got Flat Betted at El Cortez
Are they actually counting or just watching the bet swings? Someone should go there and play an opposite counting system at a -3% edge or so for an hour, just to see if they'd back that off too.
Secondly, EC's nickname is the Sweaty Spaniard. Wanna guess how they got that nickname? LOL. Spreading $5-$150 or even $5-$75 on single or double deck games (that's all they have) at the ultra sweaty low limit joint is pretty aggressive. No surprise thy wouldn't take that for long. Even if you weren't counting and spread to those limits, they would probably take action against you....that's how sweaty they are.
Quote: CoachOI'm new to counting, I was flat betted for the first time ever at El Cortez this weekend. I was being pretty aggressive with my bets playing $5 mins. Even with being aggressive I was surprised that I got flat betted with the low amounts I was betting. I only bet $150 twice majority was $30-$75 with a pos TC. Anyways I was so surprised I actually laughed in the PB face when he said I was flat betted. I just immediately left and cashed out my chips. Just wanted to share about El Cortez since they seem to be a little picky about their players.
Welcome to the club, a club that includes both counters and non counters. They won't tolerate those spreads and they don't like winners. You handled it just fine. If you still want to play there, give it a few weeks and try again with a smaller spread. Rinse and repeat. :-)
Were you using a players card with your real name?
Welcome to the forum CoachO. Hope you stick around.
Quote: kewljFirst, I have never heard of EC flat betting anyone. Usually the just back you off (no more BJ). I am not saying it didn't happen. Could be a new tactic.
I was flat bet there when spreading $5-$50 last October. Maybe they're taking a new approach?
When I was there the PB (on a couple occasions for me and someone else) counted down the discards, so I think they're counting along too.
Quote: MathExtremistIsn't that a badge of honor for card counters or something?
Are they actually counting or just watching the bet swings? Someone should go there and play an opposite counting system at a -3% edge or so for an hour, just to see if they'd back that off too.
I have seen them refuse action from players that were spreading but not with the count. They were no more counting cards than jumping over the moon. If you spread.....they panic. Period.
It DOES seem to be a badge of honor type thing for new players. I've never quite understood that reasoning. ?? I think just the other way. I play that store several times a week, (short sessions) and I play green /black level which is watched ultra closely. I figure if I can play this place and not get backed off I am achieving something and I think it's been over a year now since my last backoff. I probably have 12-14 total there over the last 6 years. I had one pit guy that turned red and nearly exploded just seeing me. He once backed me off in the men's room, which was pretty non professional. But he retired and I have been golden there since.
Quote: kewljI had one pit guy that turned red and nearly exploded just seeing me. He once backed me off in the men's room, which was pretty non professional. But he retired and I have been golden there since.
There's a bad joke in there somewhere...
every counter in town, they read the
same boards as we do. They must get
real sick of having to do their jobs all
the time.
Quote: CoachOIt was single deck, I played there the day before and won only $100 from them. Later that night I got the rough end of the stick at TI. I had a +6-8 TC and got beat back to back big bets when I had a 20 and dealer squeaked out a 21. That's why I was being supper aggressive at el cortez. I'm not worried about el Cortez though I live hours away and was just in on vacation. What was funny was the guy who I was playing by argued for me to the PB saying there is no way in the world a guy from Arkansas can do something as complicated as counting cards. I wasn't sure if I should appreciate him sticking up for me or be insulted haha.
Being underestimated is a compliment as an AP.
Quote: surrender88sdoes anyone keep playing after the flat bet? It's a low HE game if you aren't a purist AP... I feel like I would order drinks and just have a great time
Why would you want to give them more time to get to know you?
Quote: surrender88sdoes anyone keep playing after the flat bet? It's a low HE game if you aren't a purist AP... I feel like I would order drinks and just have a great time
I agree with MaxPen. Unless you're interested in the Casino learning more about you, don't even bother sticking around. Their surveillance department will be monitoring your play, and determining if further action would be required against you.
This'll lead to more information gathering, and finding out more of your personal information.
Quote: kewljI had one pit guy that turned red and nearly exploded just seeing me. He once backed me off in the men's room, which was pretty non professional. But he retired and I have been golden there since.
Good ole MOE.
I kinda miss him.
Quote: HowManyGood ole MOE.
I kinda miss him.
I don't. :/
Although...one time one of the floor people asked me what the count was...Like dude, I'm spreading $5-$30,,,,,calm down.
Getting backed off....not a badge of honor. Perhaps it feels like a badge of honor (to some) the first time they get backed off. But it's a total mess. You gotta figure out how to cash your chips (or what you're gonna do with them until you get them cashed).....hope you don't get your picture sent all around town.....wonder how long until you can return and play at that property or even a sister property....or ANY property for that matter. Getting backed off...there's really no upside to it. Unfortunately, it's (almost) a necessity to playing good BJ now a days.
You mean Double Attack blackjack?Quote: 21formeAm I the only AP who has never been backed off at EC? (I've only been there twice, at both times, I spread from 5-2x100 at a BJ variant that never been publicly written about.)
https://wizardofodds.com/games/double-attack-blackjack/ (basic strategy and house edge for DABJ)
http://discountgambling.net/?s=double+attack (card counting DABJ)
Many years ago (we're talking 2003) I was counting the EC single deck, using "halves" which was my count system for most of the years I was a player. I was spreading $25 to $100. After I put out a max bet for the second or third time, the PB came over and counted down the deck then stared at me and walked away. A few minutes later, after another max bet, he came over and counted down the deck a second time, stared at me and walked away. The third time it happened, as he was counting, I said "not everybody uses hi-lo" and walked out. It was pretty funny.
Quote: teliotMany years ago (we're talking 2003) I was counting the EC single deck, using "halves" which was my count system for most of the years I was a player. I was spreading $25 to $100. After I put out a max bet for the second or third time, the PB came over and counted down the deck then stared at me and walked away. A few minutes later, after another max bet, he came over and counted down the deck a second time, stared at me and walked away. The third time it happened, as he was counting, I said "not everybody uses hi-lo" and walked out. It was pretty funny.
Are you implying that your count system (wong halves) is so much different than hi-lo that a hilo player wouldn't be max-betting while a halves player would be max betting? If I'm not mistaken, halves and hilo are very closely related regarding BC....and I think you'd have to get a really skewed deck combination for such an event to occur. But 3 times in a row? Hmm....
Yes, halves can be very different than hi-lo in single deck. For example, if these cards came out, the count would be negative using halves: 2, 2, 2, J, Q. But, if these cards came out, you'd put out a max bet: 5, 5, 5, J, Q.Quote: RSAre you implying that your count system (wong halves) is so much different than hi-lo that a hilo player wouldn't be max-betting while a halves player would be max betting? If I'm not mistaken, halves and hilo are very closely related regarding BC....and I think you'd have to get a really skewed deck combination for such an event to occur. But 3 times in a row? Hmm....
2, 7 = +1
3, 4, 6 = +2
5 = + 3
9 = -1
T, J, Q, K, A = -2
Quote: teliotYes, halves can be very different than hi-lo in single deck. For example, if these cards came out, the count would be negative using halves: 2, 2, 2, J, Q. But, if these cards came out, you'd put out a max bet: 5, 5, 5, J, Q.
Yep. Fives are HUGE in SD. One of the stories in The World's Greatest Blackjack Book tells of Lawrence Revere throwing two of them out of the window from a SD game.
Quote: RSAre you implying that your count system (wong halves) is so much different than hi-lo that a hilo player wouldn't be max-betting while a halves player would be max betting? If I'm not mistaken, halves and hilo are very closely related regarding BC....and I think you'd have to get a really skewed deck combination for such an event to occur. But 3 times in a row? Hmm....
Quote: teliotFor example, if these cards came out, the count would be negative using halves: 2, 2, 2, J, Q. But, if these cards came out, you'd put out a max bet: 5, 5, 5, J, Q.
Let me see if I got this straight. RS says you would need a pretty skewed combination to present a difference in Hi-lo and Halves as far as max betting is concerned.
Teliot's response is to present just such a skewed scenario, to what...prove RS's point????
Furthermore, are we supposed to believe that just such an unusual sequence occurred all 3 times the pit guy was counting down, so as to provide cover and throw him off, when it wouldn't have if you were using hi-lo?
In every 'discussion', I have ever engaged in with players using a level 2 or level 3 count, they over exaggerate the benefits and in this case cover ability of their count. 95% of the time, proficient users of hi-lo and a higher level count playing at the same table against the same cards would be raising and lowering their wagers in tandem and max bets situations are almost assured to be in that 95%.
Teliot, you are what I refer to as a "math guy". Sometimes I substitute "geek for "guy", which I don't mean in a derogatory manner, just playfully. You obviously have extremely strong mathematical abilities. I, on the other hand, while not mathematically challenged, fall into the average or limited mathematical ability category, so it is hard for me to relate to you "math guys".
But here's what I have noticed from participation on various sites. When it comes to card counting, "math guys" are NEVER content with the simple approach which especially in this day and age is all that's needed to beat BJ. They always want to go higher level counts, side counts, hundreds of index plays, which end up being worth pennies. All of this is almost a waste of effort, IMO. "Waste" isn't a great word, but just not worth the effort....VERY diminishing return for the extra effort. The phrase I like to use is "chasing pennies, when you should be chasing dollars".
So here's my question: With your strong mathematical abilities, and using higher counts, as math guys tend to do, why did your blackjack career not result in you end up being one of the greats in the blackjack community, with strong financial success? Other's describe you as a failed card counter/AP, but I won't go that far (because I honestly don't know).
My follow-up thought/question is that for "math guys" like yourself, I have observed that the 'thrill' of successful card counting or any AP is almost as much about just beating the casinos than it is about financial rewards. So it seems a very unnatural fit for someone to go from having that pride of beating the game(s) using their mathematical abilities, to completely jumping to the other side (the evil side...lol), in the form of game protection.
edit: re-reading, this feels attack-ish. This honestly isn't my intent. I want to understand the world of Teliot. lol.
I am not sure why the pit walked away the first two times, but they did. The third time, I left before he took any particular action after having counted it down.Quote: kewljFurthermore, are we supposed to believe that just such an unusual sequence occurred all 3 times the pit guy was counting down.
Quote: teliotI am not sure why the pit walked away the first two times, but they did.
That flipping through the discard tray, especially single/double deck, is an intimidation tactic. Often times they aren't even paying attention to the cards they are flipping through. It is more about gaging your reaction and/or sending a message or warning shot.
Most casinos and pit personnel really don't want to back off a player (although Elco might be an exception...lol) It's bad for business. It's been my observation that the 'professional' places and pit personnel, usually send a signal, message or warning shot or two before a backoff. It's just that sometimes we don't recognize these signals until after the fact.
Yes, I've experienced that kind of light heat in many different ways, but at the EC it was usually all or nothing in my experience. The way the guy thumbed through the deck, I'm pretty certain he counted down the discards.Quote: kewljThat flipping through the discard tray, especially single/double deck, is an intimidation tactic. Often times they aren't even paying attention to the cards they are flipping through. It is more about gaging your reaction and/or sending a message or warning shot.
Most casinos and pit personnel really don't want to back off a player (although Elco might be an exception...lol) It's bad for business. It's been my observation that the 'professional' places and pit personnel, usually send a signal, message or warning shot or two before a backoff. It's just that sometimes we don't recognize these signals until after the fact.
Quote: kewljMy follow-up thought/question is that for "math guys" like yourself, I have observed that the 'thrill' of successful card counting or any AP is almost as much about just beating the casinos than it is about financial rewards. So it seems a very unnatural fit for someone to go from having that pride of beating the game(s) using their mathematical abilities, to completely jumping to the other side (the evil side...lol), in the form of game protection.
edit: re-reading, this feels attack-ish. This honestly isn't my intent. I want to understand the world of Teliot. lol.
There's an old joke about mathematicians:
A mathematician and an engineer are walking down a hallway in the chemistry building. They pass an open door to a lab and see a fire burning in a trash bin next to a chair. The engineer walks into the room, takes the burning trash bin from next to the chair, puts it in the sink, turns on the faucet, and puts out the fire. He then leaves the room to rejoin his mathematician friend.
They keep walking and pass another open door to a lab and see a fire burning in a trash bin on top of a desk. The mathematician walks into the room, takes the burning trash bin from on top of the desk and places it next to the chair -- reducing it to a problem that has already been solved -- and leaves the room.
I don't want to speak out of turn vis-a-vis teliot, but in my experience there is a strong correlation with those who choose to pursue advanced study in mathematics (or hard sciences) and those who want to solve unsolved problems. Card counting is not an unsolved problem. From the standpoint of an academic, it's uninteresting. There is very little in the way of new research to be done on the basic game of blackjack. And the thrill or pride that you feel as an AP from beating a game using someone else's theories is probably not as compelling to someone who would rather be developing their own theories.
In short, it's likely the case that the people who are best at researching playing strategies for how to beat new games have more interest in the research than executing those playing strategies. When I learned how to play craps in the 1990s, I discovered that I was more interested in the probability theory than actually playing dice. I've been in gaming math ever since.
I never had much of an interest in the AP lifestyle. I taught myself how to count cards in college, went to AC and Foxwoods a few times, and quickly realized two things: one is that I didn't have the stomach for the bankroll swings. Two is that I could make a lot more money, with less risk and more comfort (I don't like secondhand smoke), doing other things. I'm sure that I could have been reasonably successful as an AP, or help an AP team be pretty successful, but I'm equally sure that I've done better for myself as a consultant than I would ever have done as an AP. Plus I get to work from home.
Quote: MathExtremistThere's an old joke about mathematicians:
A mathematician and an engineer are walking down a hallway in the chemistry building. They pass an open door to a lab and see a fire burning in a trash bin next to a chair. The engineer walks into the room, takes the burning trash bin from next to the chair, puts it in the sink, turns on the faucet, and puts out the fire. He then leaves the room to rejoin his mathematician friend.
They keep walking and pass another open door to a lab and see a fire burning in a trash bin on top of a desk. The mathematician walks into the room, takes the burning trash bin from on top of the desk and places it next to the chair -- reducing it to a problem that has already been solved -- and leaves the room.
I don't want to speak out of turn vis-a-vis teliot, but in my experience there is a strong correlation with those who choose to pursue advanced study in mathematics (or hard sciences) and those who want to solve unsolved problems. Card counting is not an unsolved problem. From the standpoint of an academic, it's uninteresting. There is very little in the way of new research to be done on the basic game of blackjack. And the thrill or pride that you feel as an AP from beating a game using someone else's theories is probably not as compelling to someone who would rather be developing their own theories.
In short, it's likely the case that the people who are best at researching playing strategies for how to beat new games have more interest in the research than executing those playing strategies. When I learned how to play craps in the 1990s, I discovered that I was more interested in the probability theory than actually playing dice. I've been in gaming math ever since.
I never had much of an interest in the AP lifestyle. I taught myself how to count cards in college, went to AC and Foxwoods a few times, and quickly realized two things: one is that I didn't have the stomach for the bankroll swings. Two is that I could make a lot more money, with less risk and more comfort (I don't like secondhand smoke), doing other things. I'm sure that I could have been reasonably successful as an AP, or help an AP team be pretty successful, but I'm equally sure that I've done better for myself as a consultant than I would ever have done as an AP. Plus I get to work from home.
You've made those statements before and they make perfect sense to me.
Let's do a hypothetical and turn the clock back 40 years to those juicy games with very little heat an not much need for cover play. Would you still feel the same? (I think I know the answer.)
Quote: 1BBYou've made those statements before and they make perfect sense to me.
Let's do a hypothetical and turn the clock back 40 years to those juicy games with very little heat an not much need for cover play. Would you still feel the same? (I think I know the answer.)
Forty years ago someone who kept mysteriously winning was just as likely to end up in a hole in the desert, so, um, no.
And forty years ago, I would have been the one to start Shuffle Master. You keep the juicy games with no heat, I'll take $800/table/month on 1000 installs instead. :)
Quote: EvenBobThey have to know they're a target for
every counter in town, they read the
same boards as we do. They must get
real sick of having to do their jobs all
the time.
Why does EL even offer the game then? Why not move to all CSM or shoe games with low table maximums?
Because when you are a sweaty palmed break-in joint known as the Hell Cortez you can't give up your sole reason for fame. Any more than they are going to stop spreading rumors that your discharge wrist-band from the Detention Center will get you a bonus at the Hell Cortez.Quote: HokuaWhy does EL even offer the game then? Why not move to all CSM or shoe games with low table maximums?
There are certain things that never change. The Hell Cortez is a sweat the money joint. Always will be. You don't have to be card counting there, just think the word 'counting' and they will boot you out. Well, .... almost.
Quote: IbeatyouracesYep. Fives are HUGE in SD. One of the stories in The World's Greatest Blackjack Book tells of Lawrence Revere throwing two of them out of the window from a SD game.
Which one is the best counting system.
On the rare occasion I play BJ I count the 10's (values, K, J etc) , aces, and 6 and below
Very crude probably
Why that distinction for just Wong Halves? How deep is enough?
Quote: IbeatyouracesYep. Fives are HUGE in SD. One of the stories in The World's Greatest Blackjack Book tells of Lawrence Revere throwing two of them out of the window from a SD game.
Worth noting. Do tell!
Quote: WizardThe El Cortez was my second back off in my life and just about an hour after the first (at Binions). The El Cortez was very rude about it and didn't even let me color up my chips. When I tried to color up my stack of reds the pit boss barked at me, "Just get the hell off my table."
I know this thread was bumped and I am responding to a post 5 years old, but I find your experience interesting , in large part because it is you, a known commodity. Hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions.
Were you playing single or double deck? What kind of spread? Do you think because it was you, had anything to do with the backoff? And along those same lines, I am a bit surprised you can play anywhere in this town, being who you are and people (pit) knows what you look like.
I have also seen tables with higher limits on Superbowl weekends and New Years. Anyway, the point is that even a place like El Cortez, has their high roller or two. I wouldn't think enough to support a high roller room....even one that is only open on weekends.
Now, if you tweak by adding 1/2 point to each side you have the equivilancy of a 48 card deck. So the deck compositions requirement isn't as strict. Thus you are getting about 3% more hands as large bet opportunities.
The BC/PE suffers but SCORE soars.
