Do I have a lawsuit? (illegally detained and handcuffed)
They had me detained for 30 minutes, going through my personal items in my pockets (one of them being my id. so they eventually were able to prove who they believed I was). During the scuffle, of forcing my hands behind my back and them aggressively digging though my pockets, they cut my right arm, which I just took pictures of. It's not a major cut, but it is a cut nevertheless. I also woke up, with my arms and wrists sore, from being in cuffs for over 20 minutes or so.
*side note,* I was flat-betted at this casino already, prior to this incident.
They took a picture of me (without my consent, while I was in cuffs against the wall they forced me to stand at). They evicted me from the property, and banned me from coming back. I did sign the paper acknowledging the ban (eviction). (not sure if I refused to sign, what they would have done, I just wanted to be out the situation already). I was told, I can call or write to get reinstated (which I have no desire to do).
************** Do I have a lawsuit here? ***************
(I would like to get some opinions here from people who went though this already, or have knowledge on the subject - to see if it is worth pursuing)
(my thoughts are, I was under no suspicion of a crime, therefore, I do not have to produce i.d.. I was under suspicion of breaking the casino rules of betting over the limits they had in place for me at a blackjack table. I do not believe this warrants or gives them a right to force-ably, handcuff me, search my pockets, go though my personal items, and detain me for refusing to give my i.d.)
This was an embarrassing and degrading situation to have to go though, as it was done very close to the gaming floor, with onlookers watching. All because, I am playing a game offered by the casino. playing it in a way they don't like. I was treated like a criminal for "playing a game strategically", and refusing to give i.d. when asked, when I am under no legal obligation to do so.
----> from Romes:
Quote: RomesWow, quite the story... I hope you're okay!
So they didn't approach you at all while you were playing? They waited until after you cashed out and then stopped you randomly on the casino floor asking for ID? You are absolutely within your rights to refuse giving your ID to them at this point. They can ask, but they can not require, stop, or detain you. Of course all of this depends on your actual story and what you were doing, I'm just going off of what you wrote.
The only problem I see is you not giving your ID to the police officers. Unfortunately if the police are called they have the right to ID people with probable cause. They were brought to the casino for an incident (doesn't matter what it was) and as most cops do, they'll instantly just start ID'ing people to check if anyone has anything they can arrest them for. Here I would have given my ID to the actual police officers (never a casino employee) and told them "I'm showing you my ID for the purposes of identifying myself to a police officer. This information is not for you to disseminate to the casino, whom have no right to my information. I was doing absolutely nothing illegal and will sue to protect my information from wrongly being distributed."
When you refuse to give ID to an actual police officer they're legally allowed to arrest/detain you until they can figure out who you are, because they need to be able to check for warrants, etc. If you didn't have ANY ID on you they would have taken you to the station and finger printed you / held you until some form of identification could be provided for you.
When you're in a casino, you're out in the open for them to take your picture. Think about it. You're on camera from the moment you walk in. They are within their rights to stop the video and take a still frame as a picture. This is why many casinos have 'choke points' set up where everyone has to go through some open, narrow hallway where they can get a good shot of everyone's face. Now if they took you to a backroom and asked you to smile, you by no means have to look directly at the camera/etc. At this point after the police showed up though, you were in a tough spot. Your best course of action would have been to cooperate with the actual police. Prior to the actual police showing up you should have pulled your phone out and video recorded you saying "I wish to leave this establishment. You have no right to detain me and I wish to leave. Please let me leave." Saying this over and over would show they're detaining you against your will (i.e. kidnapping).
What you signed was you being trespassed from their property (properties?). You're now hard barred there and could face troubles if you go back to their property (properties)? This is why casinos want your ID so bad. They can't 'technically' bar someone if they don't know who they are. They can say "never come back" but it means nothing unless they have your ID to fill out the trespass paperwork.
Do you have a lawsuit?
First, I'll say CONSULT A LAWYER. While a lot of people on here are familiar with the do's and don'ts, your individual state/etc could have some minor different laws. Also, I hope you weren't playing on at an indian casino, because 99/100 times that just means tough luck for you as they have their own courts and can do pretty much whatever they want.
Now that the disclaimer is out of the way, I'll give my opinion... You quite possibly do. I need to hear more of your story on how/when they stopped you. There was obviously a point in which security would not let you leave before the police were called. How did this situation come about? You said it was after you cashed your chips. Did anyone talk to you before that? Did they stop you at the door and refuse to let you leave? Did you state numerous times you wanted to leave? Would it be obvious on video that you were trying to leave and they wouldn't let you? Did they give you any reasons as to why you weren't allowed to leave? Please give a very detailed breakdown of your story prior to the police showing up.
I'm sorry you had to deal with this situation, it unfortunately still happens with uneducated casinos. For now if I was you I would NOT list the casino here, but you can say whether or not it was a tribal/indian casino or not.
EDIT - You should probably also copy your previous post and make this it's own thread. It will get a lot more traffic/responses to potentially help you.
Quote: RomesWow, quite the story... I hope you're okay!
So they didn't approach you at all while you were playing?
No
Quote: RomesThey waited until after you cashed out and then stopped you randomly on the casino floor asking for ID?
Yes. But obviously it wasn't random, they followed me and knew who I was.
Quote: RomesWhat you signed was you being trespassed from their property (properties?). You're now hard barred there and could face troubles if you go back to their property (properties)?
Yes.
Quote: RomesI need to hear more of your story on how/when they stopped you. There was obviously a point in which security would not let you leave before the police were called. How did this situation come about? You said it was after you cashed your chips. Did anyone talk to you before that? Did they stop you at the door and refuse to let you leave? Did you state numerous times you wanted to leave? Would it be obvious on video that you were trying to leave and they wouldn't let you? Did they give you any reasons as to why you weren't allowed to leave? Please give a very detailed breakdown of your story prior to the police showing up.
I was not approached at the table. After I got up from the table, I proceeded to the cage to cash my chips. About 15 seconds later, as I am on my way out the casino, somebody from behind me, is calling out my first name (a suit). I know what it's about, however, I ignore them, like I don't hear the person. Another 30 seconds later, I hear from behind me, now 2 suits, yell out 'Sir", 'Sir", it was so loud, it was almost impossible to ignore. So I turn around, and they approach me. They say "are you (my first name)?" I respond, "no". They ask me again the same question, I again say no. Then they ask, "do you have i.d. on you.". I say "no". I said "what is this about?" They say "we have identified you as an advantage player who was told before to only bet the table minimum and you were just playing above those limits." I said, "I don't know who (my first name), but that's not me, and I have no i.d. I am on my way out the casino. " They continued to ask for i.d. A 3rd suit comes on the scene. By the way this is in a main hallway of the casino with a lot of foot traffic. They probably asked for i.d. at least 7 to 8 times. I did state to them, that I wanted to leave, and had to go numerous times. The 3rd suit radio's into security to come and says on the radio "he is refusing to give i.d.". Security comes, and hovers around me in a way where I can't walk away from there. They say come with me. I asked "where am I going"? They respond "to the security area". I go with them. That's when police arrive.
Quote: RomesI'm sorry you had to deal with this situation, it unfortunately still happens with uneducated casinos. For now if I was you I would NOT list the casino here, but you can say whether or not it was a tribal/indian casino or not.
It was an indian casino, and the police were not local police, but tribal police.
Quote: stabworldIt was an indian casino, and the police were not local police, but tribal police.
Your screwed!
Quote: mcallister3200Ah yes, the "sovereign nation of criminals". Probably nothing you can do, if it weren't on a reservation it'd be another story. At least they didn't steal the money you had on you along with your chips.
Exactly. Feel fortunate they didn't steal all of your possessions.
Pretty broad paint brush you are using there mcallister3200.
Otherwise, the only way to fight it is to file suit in tribal court, using an attorney familiar with their legal system.
Good luck finding one.
Realistically, the deck is so stacked against you that you might as just give up, move on, and figure out how to better camouflage your AP at other casinos: obviously you screwed up somehow, as they figured out you were counting and gave you the proverbial bum's rush.
It happens.
Quote: IbeatyouracesYour screwed!
Yep. You're screwed.
As soon as I read "Indian Casino", that's all.
Quote: zoobrewWhy do people think they don't have to provide ID in an age restricted private place of business. Change the story from a casino to a bar and does every still think they have to right to not produce ID to the bartender or when the police or liquor control board does an underage sweep. Most of the casinos I visit have policies that state patrons must provide proof of age if they enter the casino and they can require that anywhere on the casino floor and technically it would be discrimination if they judged age only by looks, so they can ID anyone they want. If you don't like the rules don't visit the privately owned business.
Doesn't matter: you don't have to show ID at a bar or anywhere else. Only place you legally have to is while driving or when suspected of commiting a crime (by police). Anywhere else, the law is "up to them", meaning the casino or bar gets into trouble if they permit you to play without IDing you (and you not being of legal age). They cannot legally hold you unless a crime has been committed.
Casinos can have whatever policies they want. That doesn't make their policies the law.
But, none of that really matters when on Indian land.
Quote: MrVYou should complain to the government regulatory agency, for all the good that will do you.
Otherwise, the only way to fight it is to file suit in tribal court, using an attorney familiar with their legal system.
Good luck finding one.
Realistically, the deck is so stacked against you that you might as just give up, move on, and figure out how to better camouflage your AP at other casinos: obviously you screwed up somehow, as they figured out you were counting and gave you the proverbial bum's rush.
It happens.
Unfortunately, I have to completely agree with MrV. This being a tribal casino and tribal police is one of the many pitfalls AP's talk about often. You'd have to take them to their tribal courts where one of the 'arresting officers' cousins/brothers/etc is probably your judge. You're fighting a beyond up hill battle here and this is why most AP's give GREAT caution when playing in a tribal casino.
Another mistake it sounds like you made was not just leaving. Even if they're yelling your name, loud enough not to ignore, that doesn't stop your legs from working. Think about it. What could come of stopping to talk to them? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING GOOD. I would have never stopped moving my legs towards the door. Then they would have had to of "grabbed" you and "assaulted" you on your way out to stop you, which they 'probably' wouldn't have done (especially since they were just trying to confirm who you were). Even if you stopped as soon as you said "no, that's not me" you should have instantaneously turned and continued walking to the door.
Everything else you did was pretty spot on, but being at a tribal casino you're mostly under their jurisdiction and unfortunately you don't get much protection from common law. You would have a decent case (in my non lawyer opinion) had this not been at a tribal casino.
My opinion: Your right were violated, 100%, but there's little you can do about it since it's tribal. Your best bet is to live and learn, and to avoid that casino for a very, very long time.
Quote: HowManyYep. You're screwed.
As soon as I read "Indian Casino", that's all.
Yup. Now you can spend a ton on a lawyer
and it will get you nothing. Indian casinos
act this way because they know they can
get away with it. Your name and pic are
now at every Indian joint within 300 miles
of where they nailed you.
I don't usually carry any ID when in a casino, in the UK I show them my passport when joining up and that's it (as they have my photo on file) - is there a law in the US that you have to carry ID? (I always have my [UK] driving licence when driving and usually my passport as well.)
Quote: EvenBob...Your name and pic are
now at every Indian joint within 300 miles
of where they nailed you.
Guaranteed now of being in OSN. Not that it'll end his career, but just something to be aware of.
According to NIGC MICS, which the tribe is required to follow, surveillance video must be retained for a minimum of seven days and in cases of suspicious activity or detentions by security agents discovered within the initial retention period must be retained for a time period of not less than one year.
If I were to pursue this case I would get the ball rolling immediately. You are going to want a lawyer familiar with the tribal code for that casino and someone with knowledge of MICS. Basically you want to make sure that tape of the issue is not erased. That could help to persuade judge. Not saying this will work and to be honest it is probably a long shot.
Quote: TankoThis guy sued Mohegan Sun in tribal court and was awarded $500,000.
Very interesting. But you have to admit, apples and oranges. No, that's not quite different enough. Fruit and vegetables. Still maybe not different enough:
"successfully argued his client, Frank Wilson Jr. was entitled to compensation for medical bills and lost wages from injuries sustained after Wilson fell from a broken slot machine chair at Mohegan Sun in 2001.
Quote: stabworldThanks for all the feedback everyone! I have reached out to some law firms that cover indian gaming law. I am awaiting responses from them. I will keep you all posted as this progresses.
You are lucky they did not break your leg and you can do nothing about it. They will say something like you fell down the steps. The $500K award is a gesture of goodwill and I don't know if it is mandatory.
I agree that they should have approached him while playing and not after. I run a surveillance department in a fairly large tribal casino, and if this guy was backed off BJ games and told to flat the minimum and he came in a disguise this would be problematic. my final bit of advice is to take the money you won and leave. spending money on a lawyer is just a waste vs a tribal casino. you have no chance of winning (unless by chance you are a native of that tribe). they can easily defend their actions by wanting to make sure he was of legal age, or any other number of reasons to request ID. we request ID of the various crack heads that come in late at night, most of their ID doesn't exist or it's expired , so its easy to boot them out.
Quote: RSDoesn't matter: you don't have to show ID at a bar or anywhere else. Only place you legally have to is while driving or when suspected of commiting a crime (by police). Anywhere else, the law is "up to them", meaning the casino or bar gets into trouble if they permit you to play without IDing you (and you not being of legal age). They cannot legally hold you unless a crime has been committed.
Casinos can have whatever policies they want. That doesn't make their policies the law.
But, none of that really matters when on Indian land.
that could be the most useless bit of advice I've ever read. Any private business can refuse service. and the fact you think a 22 year old can walk into a bar or casino without showing ID and play or drink is absurd. and by the way , a casino can detain you until law enforcement arrives if a crime has been committed.
Quote: bdc42that could be the most useless bit of advice I've ever read. Any private business can refuse service. and the fact you think a 22 year old can walk into a bar or casino without showing ID and play or drink is absurd. and by the way , a casino can detain you until law enforcement arrives if a crime has been committed.
Which is true of retail as well but if there was no crime and you are detained; well then you get to receive a large check.
Quote: GWAEWhich is true of retail as well but if there was no crime and you are detained; well then you get to receive a large check.
You forget, Indian casinos make up phony laws on the spot.
Quote: bdc42not that I'm blowing my own horn, but I run surveillance in a fairly large tribal casino and the last time I checked, and I check every day (oceans 13). there is nowhere it says I must keep video for a year! 30 days is the minimum for a crime. not a year ( we keep important video forever by the way). I would defiantly keep this video , as I'm sure he is in the wrong, but even if he wasn't I'd download the video (everything is digital now, not tape). I 'm trying to save this guy some money, the casino didn't do anything wrong and pursuing it will only cost money.
bdc,
Thanks for joining the conversation; really appreciate your perspective on this. In one of your posts above this one, you wrote ..."if a crime has been committed". Taking the OP's post at face value (understanding what you said that there is always more to the story), at what point from the start to the point where he was handcuffed and detained, what crime do you think was committed that would justify that response from the casino security? Why would they take the risk of exposing the casino to an unlawful detention lawsuit given the situation. I'm trying to understand how they can be justified in taking things that far based on his narrative. Thanks!
Quote: IbeatyouracesYou forget, Indian casinos make up phony laws on the spot.
Yeah I agree he is screwed. Just meaning if this happens at a reputable place then you do have a lawsuit he is screwed in the Indian casinos
I don't know whether or not in this situation there is standing for a lawsuit, however I do believe that there
should be. What happened to you sounds to me like lawless Golden Rule Bullying simply because you won. GRB= He who has all the gold RULES!!!
My questions to you would be, your definition of " playing strategically" , and what were the circumstances of the previous encounter, are you a counter, or do you use another method of play? What level of player are you? I strongly believe that if a game is offered to the public , and you are playing by the rules, winners and losers alike should be allowed to play. I do not consider intelligence to be a crime.
To your question as to whether or not you have a lawsuit, I think will depend on the respective laws in place and jurisdiction.
I think the bottom line here is that the casinos don't want any consistent winners big or small and it's much easier and cost effective for them, legal or not, to ferret out and back off the few winning players rather than modifying the game itself potentially lowering their odds against the massive number of losers , therefore , IMHO Very steep uphill battle.... very slippery slope!
That said, there may be another beneficial compensatory solution depending on your willingness to pursue.
Quote: bdc42that could be the most useless bit of advice I've ever read. Any private business can refuse service. and the fact you think a 22 year old can walk into a bar or casino without showing ID and play or drink is absurd. and by the way , a casino can detain you until law enforcement arrives if a crime has been committed.
7-11 is a private business. The owner has the right to refuse service to me. However, the owner does not have the right to have some security goons hold me and take me in to his backroom (when I wish to leave the establishment) unless a crime has been committed (which none was here).
Quote: TankoThis guy sued Mohegan Sun in tribal court and was awarded $500,000.
I wonder whether Mohegan Sun was self-insured on that claim, or whether it was covered by insurance?
If insured, it is interesting that the insurance company would consent to tribal court jurisdiction to resolve any liability lawsuits.
Quote: cwwbjrFrom a players perspective, that was unfortunate.
I don't know whether or not in this situation there is standing for a lawsuit, however I do believe that there
should be. What happened to you sounds to me like lawless Golden Rule Bullying simply because you won. GRB= He who has all the gold RULES!!!
My questions to you would be, your definition of " playing strategically" , and what were the circumstances of the previous encounter, are you a counter, or do you use another method of play? What level of player are you? I strongly believe that if a game is offered to the public , and you are playing by the rules, winners and losers alike should be allowed to play. I do not consider intelligence to be a crime.
One of the most hard and fast realities displayed in this comment is the notion that the Owner [of the gold or the casino] sets the rules, mentioned here as The Golden Rule. Ultimately, the issue returns back to "Rules" - where any manifest action may be either in accordance with the rules (meaning no back off) or NOT in accordance of the rules (indeed meaning a back off) - in the opinion of the owner of the gold or casino. The casino owner and his surveillance crew are going to simply look at the player's actions (card counting/AP play) - while making no assumptions about how intelligent the caught AP player thought he was; the player's opinion is neither material nor an excuse vis-à-vis da House Rules.
I fully agree that intelligence is not a crime; however, intelligence is what its very results are, and a noisy back off actually might not fit the description. Look at it this way: Intelligence results in either:
a) success by following the rules, or;
b) success by not getting caught, when not following the rules.
Quote: cwwbjrTo your question as to whether or not you have a lawsuit, I think will depend on the respective laws in place and jurisdiction.
I think the bottom line here is that the casinos don't want any consistent winners big or small and it's much easier and cost effective for them, legal or not, to ferret out and back off the few winning players rather than modifying the game itself potentially lowering their odds against the massive number of losers , therefore , IMHO Very steep uphill battle.... very slippery slope!
That said, there may be another beneficial compensatory solution depending on your willingness to pursue.
Casinos actually do not mind a mix of winners and losers; they look at the overall table hold without care of who wins and loses. They may care how it is won, and this is different, is it now (and always was, actually) an issue of "by the house rules or not." That's what they actually care about. Win a progressive for $300,000 and they will salute you and put your picture up on the Winner's Wall of Fame, so as long as you played by the rules. That's the bottom line.
Call a lawyer, and see what the options are.
*Emphasis addedQuote:Advantage gambling, or advantage play, refers to a practice of using legal ways to gain a mathematical advantage while gambling. The term usually refers to house-banked games, but can also refer to games played against other players, such as poker.
So no rules were broke at all, yet stabworld was harassed, assaulted, and illegally detained. The only reason this isn't an auto-lawsuit is because it's at a tribal casino where they make their own rules and he'd have to sue them in tribal court. Thus, as most have properly suggested, he should let it go because the system is once again unfairly stacked against the patron.
Like I said in the Indian casino the OP is lucky not to get his leg broken and he has no recourse whatsoever.
In any other private property like a casino when ask for ID by any law enforcement officers including security guards the OP must produce his ID.
bdc, is right. The police must by law be obeyed. Failing which it is obstruction of the duties of a police officer. After cuffing the OP he will be driven to police station and subject to detention and further questioning. If the OP is not cooperating with the police he will be charged with obstruction of the duties of the police officer, creating a public nuisance and disturbance of the peace.
These are tribal police, not real police officers. Then again I'll go ahead and admit I'm not 100% familiar with tribal law, so if they're treated like their own country, perhaps tribal police could be treated as real police officers in that sense. Taking a step back just to look at an overview though, that's retarded.Quote: Deck007...The police must by law be obeyed...
Quote: RomesThese are tribal police, not real police officers. Then again I'll go ahead and admit I'm not 100% familiar with tribal law, so if they're treated like their own country, perhaps tribal police could be treated as real police officers in that sense. Taking a step back just to look at an overview though, that's retarded.
Yes that is the case.
Quote: Romes*Emphasis addedQuote:Advantage gambling, or advantage play, refers to a practice of using legal ways to gain a mathematical advantage while gambling. The term usually refers to house-banked games, but can also refer to games played against other players, such as poker.
So no rules were broke at all, yet stabworld was harassed, assaulted, and illegally detained. The only reason this isn't an auto-lawsuit is because it's at a tribal casino where they make their own rules and he'd have to sue them in tribal court. Thus, as most have properly suggested, he should let it go because the system is once again unfairly stacked against the patron.
No. What is often dropped or denied from the view and position of AP players is that game play rules of the casino were indeed broken, - hence the back off occurring. This is true, even if no state or federal laws were broken in the process.
Sure, it is legal to count cards, as the OP was not arrested or incarcerated. He was backed off, which is legal. It might NOT be legal for the casino to further detain someone without a crime being committed.
Lets hope a WOV post can't be used as evidence. I see nothing here that would encourage an attorney to take this case, unless he was getting paid a nice hourly. What were your damages from the casino? What were your damages from the police? Possibly faults detainment for a whopping 30 min and a small scratch.Quote: stabworldYesterday, I was followed by 2 suits after cashing out my chips at the cage. I was asked to give id, "I refused at this point". They called security, I again was asked to produce I.D., "I again refused". I told them, "I am on my way out the casino and have no desire to produce I.D." Then a 3rd suit, (I think he was the head of security) said, "we can do this the hard way or the easy way." Just give me your id. "I again refused". Security came, escorted me to the security area, then police came, and asked for my id. "I again refused" As soon as I refused, they forced my hands behind my back, put me in handcuffs, and searched my pockets against my consent. (I did not resist, and was compliant during the whole ordeal., the only thing I was non-compliant with, was refusing to give i.d.)
They had me detained for 30 minutes, going through my personal items in my pockets (one of them being my id. so they eventually were able to prove who they believed I was). During the scuffle, of forcing my hands behind my back and them aggressively digging though my pockets, they cut my right arm, which I just took pictures of. It's not a major cut, but it is a cut nevertheless. I also woke up, with my arms and wrists sore, from being in cuffs for over 20 minutes or so.
*side note,* I was flat-betted at this casino already, prior to this incident.
They took a picture of me (without my consent, while I was in cuffs against the wall they forced me to stand at). They evicted me from the property, and banned me from coming back. I did sign the paper acknowledging the ban (eviction). (not sure if I refused to sign, what they would have done, I just wanted to be out the situation already). I was told, I can call or write to get reinstated (which I have no desire to do).
************** Do I have a lawsuit here? ***************
(I would like to get some opinions here from people who went though this already, or have knowledge on the subject - to see if it is worth pursuing)
(my thoughts are, I was under no suspicion of a crime, therefore, I do not have to produce i.d.. I was under suspicion of breaking the casino rules of betting over the limits they had in place for me at a blackjack table. I do not believe this warrants or gives them a right to force-ably, handcuff me, search my pockets, go though my personal items, and detain me for refusing to give my i.d.)
This was an embarrassing and degrading situation to have to go though, as it was done very close to the gaming floor, with onlookers watching. All because, I am playing a game offered by the casino. playing it in a way they don't like. I was treated like a criminal for "playing a game strategically", and refusing to give i.d. when asked, when I am under no legal obligation to do so.
IMO You don't really have a reason to sue the casino.
What did the casino do wrong?
Security came,escorted me to the security area, then police came, and asked for my id." No where did you say they forced you. You didn't even say that you asked to leave. It didn't sound like you even tried to leave They asked you multiple times for ID. You said, no.
Once the police took over, whatever the police did was on them. I don't know the laws there, as far as you having to produce an ID to a tribal police officer when requested.
Even in LV you probably wouldn't get anything from the casino. I doubt Bob N would touch this case in NV without a large retainer.
Quote: PaigowdanOne of the most hard and fast realities displayed in this comment is the notion that the Owner [of the gold or the casino] sets the rules, mentioned here as The Golden Rule. Ultimately, the issue returns back to "Rules" - where any manifest action may be either in accordance with the rules (meaning no back off) or NOT in accordance of the rules (indeed meaning a back off) - in the opinion of the owner of the gold or casino. The casino owner and his surveillance crew are going to simply look at the player's actions (card counting/AP play) - while making no assumptions about how intelligent the caught AP player thought he was; the player's opinion is neither material nor an excuse vis-à-vis da House Rules.
I fully agree that intelligence is not a crime; however, intelligence is what its very results are, and a noisy back off actually might not fit the description. Look at it this way: Intelligence results in either:
a) success by following the rules, or;
b) success by not getting caught, when not following the rules.
Casinos actually do not mind a mix of winners and losers; they look at the overall table hold without care of who wins and loses. They may care how it is won, and this is different, is it now (and always was, actually) an issue of "by the house rules or not." That's what they actually care about. Win a progressive for $300,000 and they will salute you and put your picture up on the Winner's Wall of Fame, so as long as you played by the rules. That's the bottom line.
Call a lawyer, and see what the options are.
Not true Dan.casino's do care who wins.If the same person keeps winning even if by luck eventually they will be kicked out or backed off.I know of at least 6 cases where the players were not using any Ap methods but were told no more action.
And how many players are mistakenly flat or backed off for counting when they weren't. Two of the players were backed off from craps and they never threw the dice.So please stop with this about casino's liking winners.
Quote: Deck007For argument sake let say the OP is not in an Indian casino but a state licensed casino.
Like I said in the Indian casino the OP is lucky not to get his leg broken and he has no recourse whatsoever.
In any other private property like a casino when ask for ID by any law enforcement officers including security guards the OP must produce his ID.
bdc, is right. The police must by law be obeyed. Failing which it is obstruction of the duties of a police officer. After cuffing the OP he will be driven to police station and subject to detention and further questioning. If the OP is not cooperating with the police he will be charged with obstruction of the duties of the police officer, creating a public nuisance and disturbance of the peace.
So if i attempt to enter a casino and am asked for ID and i say no I'll just leave, you think that gives security the right to detain me?You are sadly mistaken.
Quote: bdc42, the casino didn't do anything wrong .
Casinos never do anything wrong, just ask
them. Counting cards is cheating according
to them.
Quote: PaigowdanNo. What is often dropped or denied from the view and position of AP players is that game play rules of the casino were indeed broken, - hence the back off occurring. This is true, even if no state or federal laws were broken in the process.
Good grief Dan, are you still trying to sell that 'secret, non published rules, but everyone knows it's against the rules' concept? :/
You seem to be the only member of this forum, even among other members that work or have ties to the industry, that sees it that way.
Quote: HunterhillNot true Dan.casino's do care who wins.If the same person keeps winning even if by luck eventually they will be kicked out or backed off.I know of at least 6 cases where the players were not using any Ap methods but were told no more action.
I'd be skeptical if someone told me surveillance doesn't sometimes back off players at BJ even if they're not doing anything but having what is called a "winning streak" in other games. Lots of winning without being sure if someone is doing something undetectable in a game that is beatable has to make them pretty nervous.
