Someone please explain - even if card counting were actually illegal,
Quote: PaigowdanInteresting. Slow and steady wins the race. I will say that in the human condition, we are all predatory to some degree in business, (Lions and Gazelles and all that); I ask that it be considered that AP play is also predatory in nature with a view of casino operators not as businesses supplying gambling services, but as enemies to be crushed and defeated. Dealers, they are drones.
I don't consider dealers, pit folks or even the casino my enemy. I may have used that term from time to time, but I really don't feel that way. They are people doing a job. Most dealers and pit are just working Joe's, Steve's or Dan's....maybe even a working Sheila. ??? They just want to get through their day and get home to their life. One of my good friends works the pit at a major strip property. I have him to my home regularly whenever I have a gathering of friends.
The casino operators are running a business and their particular business involves gaming. That means some people (patrons) win and some lose. Most lose. But those of us that win and do so legally, within the rules of the game are part of the cost of them doing business.
I don't feel AP's are predatory, at least those playing within the law and rules of the game. Since the term Advantage Play also, includes some techniques that are not legal, and other techniques that while legal, cross into a grey area (the wrong side of the line for me) as far as ethical, I can't say all AP's are not of a predatory nature.
By the same token, I am sure not all in the industry are predatory. But there are some industry practices and policies that can't be defended. Over-serving patrons so they make poor gaming and financial decisions. This happens far too regularly and you know it. Cashing paychecks for a token free play incentive, so working people will spend their check in the casino before they ever get home to pay their rent and feed their family. Ditto with cashing welfare and Social Security checks (before they went away from actual paper checks). Horrid. :( Yes, there is some personal responsibility involved, but come on.
Quote: KeyserJustice Brent E. Dickson wrote the following:
“Permitting a casino to restrict its patrons only to those customers who lack the skill and ability to play such games well intrudes upon principles of fair and equal competition and provides unfair financial advantages and rewards to casino operators,”
---------------------
In short, the casinos choose to ban, harass, intimidate, and identify intelligent players via their lowly thugs... the gaming officers. They choose to only accommodate and cater to the blissfully ignorant.
Recently, a gaming officer in the state of Indiana said that advantage play in the state of Indiana was against the law! No joke. They attempt to intimidate and exploit the general public's ignorance on behalf of the casinos!
It if often said that taxes on cigarettes and gambling are a tax on the poor and ignorant. The experts aren't wrong.
Well said sir.
If you watch the video of the Justin Mills back-rooming in Maryland, when Justin said that card counting wasn't illegal, the Maryland Trooper incorrectly retorted that "yes it was". It's a tough fight when the people in charge of upholding the law are ignorant of the law.
Quote: djatckewlj you forgot to mention the CSM casino.
ya really think I 'forgot' to do that? LOL. I'll send ya a PM.
Quote: kewljya really think I 'forgot' to do that? LOL. I'll send ya a PM.
lol I'm just razzing you. I conveniently forget to mention any casinos I talk about here.
FREEDOM doing something you enjoy and making money doing it is a good life period.Quote: kewljThank you PGDan. It's good to have someone on your side in these situations, like Mr N.
I am not sure about the "quite the life" comment. My life as a low to mid-level car counting AP is not exciting, MIT movie, running away from security everyday kind of stuff. Nor are there any high priced hotel suites and high roller treatment. I make a modest, I guess middle-class living and live a modest suburban life.
But it is a unique type of career and there has been a learning process involved that goes to far more than the mechanics of card counting. My approach is to learn the tolerance and comfort levels of the different places I play, and avoid these types of situations. There was some trial and error involved in that learning process, which is why I have some limited experience and stories to tell, but I prefer to avoid these situations. I like to learn just what is tolerated and play within these limits. For the most part I am welcome at almost all of the places in my regular rotation.
Sometimes there is even a look of recognition from different casino personnel. I am not saying I get a friendly wave, but they recognize me. They know I will be playing within their comfort level and my stay will be short. I like to think they choose the path of least resistance (which is human nature) and do nothing and know I will be out of there hair momentarily, with them having done nothing. It's sort of a co-existence. Occasionally you get the gung-ho type (usually younger floor person), but that too is easily recognizable.
Quote: Paigowdan
What..??
Look, it's really simple. If the casino deems that your play is fine, you're good, and you may continue to play as you see fit. If they find your play to be problematic or unacceptable, you may get blocked from playing. We get that, and there's no cognitive dissonance in that.
Yes. Again, the casino makes that call. And your point is?....
The point is that even you clearly admit that in the vast majority of cases card counting is not against the rules.
Quote: TomGThe point is that even you clearly admit that in the vast majority of cases card counting is not against the rules.
It would be refreshing to hear that AP, in any form, is not against the rules, and the casinos merely object to people who win "too much".
Unfortunately, that's another nonspecific term.
Quote: kewljI am not trying to get rich. I am just trying to make a comfortable living. Initially I had a 10 year plan to make a million dollars. I was naïve and didn't understand how things worked. I am now in year 12 and only two-thirds of the way there. The first 5 years were far different and scarcer than I anticipated. It took five years to even get to a cumulated 6 figure win. :/ But I am now in a real good place..averaging upper 5 figures to just touching 6 figures on a good year. I will get there. :)
I'm in year 15 of my own gaming-related business (not AP) and I can relate to how reality can differ from your initial plans. And like you, my consulting revenues didn't really take off until after 5 years. Fortunately I was able to rely on full-time work while my practice was spinning up.
That said, it's long been my contention that anyone capable of making a living at counting cards or AP in general would necessarily have the aptitude for a much more lucrative career as a software engineer or some other skilled profession that values detail-orientation and numeracy. After 10 years of building up a practice, a good freelance software engineering consultant in Las Vegas should be making 6 figures in revenue. Consider $125/hour at 800 billable hours/year equals 100k, and that's really just two days of work per week, with the rest of your time doing bizdev or whatever else you want. Granted, as a consultant, selling to and communicating with clients are required aspects of the job, so if you hate both of those perhaps it's not a good fit. But otherwise, by choosing to apply your numeracy to APing house-banked casino games rather than serving clients who are willing to pay for your acuity, you're giving up probably 25-50k/year. Have you found that to be worth it?
Quote: MathExtremistyou're giving up probably 25-50k/year. Have you found that to be worth it?
In my case, I'd have to definitively say yes. Go back and read my responses to PGDan a couple pages back. I absolutely love my life, what I do for a living and where I am at right now. I am not a guy that values money above all else, so maxing out income potential is not at the top of my list. I make enough to live comfortably and don't think I could be happier than I am with my blackjack career and life.
Quote: TomGThe point is that even you clearly admit that in the vast majority of cases card counting is not against the rules.
I gave no ratios. They can be:
1. undetected
2. non-actionable, or;
3. actionable.
The house makes the call.
Quote: dumbledoreNot to derail this thread, but is it a Louisiana city?
In my case, no.
If you really need details, PM. Otherwise, just assume it's at one of the other 3 edges of the country.
The rules just changed.
Passage of Senate Bill 9: encouraging/enabling skilled play as part of gambling in Vegas.
Surely since the estimated Legislature is passing a law to encourage Skilled Play, Casinos as law abiding instititions who follow not only the exact wording of laws but also the spirit of laws are going to make a special promotion campaign inviting card counters to their BJ games.
Quote: AceTwoPaigowdan
The rules just changed.
Passage of Senate Bill 9: encouraging/enabling skilled play as part of gambling in Vegas.
Surely since the estimated Legislature is passing a law to encourage Skilled Play, Casinos as law abiding instititions who follow not only the exact wording of laws but also the spirit of laws are going to make a special promotion campaign inviting card counters to their BJ games.
A2, I read that, but skilled play has always been the case with strategy games. They were discussing it as it relates to Pinball 2047.
It has always argued during a flat-betting or back off, "But it was only skilled play, you see, isn't that allowed?!" but houses will always run the games by their rules.
Quote: PaigowdanA2, I read that, but skilled play has always been the case with strategy games. They were discussing it as it relates to Pinball 2047.
but houses will always run the games by their rules.
The house sets the rules, but they have to stay within the law.
I agree with AceTwo. As I wrote in the bill passage thread, this is a game changer. This bill may have specifically been written, for games like Pinball 2047, but as is so often the case, it will have far reaching effects that they didn't anticipate. In this case, I believe it will be the down fall of Nevada being allowed to bar and ban 'skilled' players.
You can not embrace, encourage, invite skilled play and skilled players and then be allowed to exclude them. It may take some time, but this will lead to a New Jersey like law, where skilled players can not be barred or banned, which in turn will lead to worse game conditions as casinos scramble to protect their games, just like Jersey.
For those of us who like the status quo, the cat and mouse game...but with better conditions, this is an unwelcome development. :(
Quote: kewlj
You can not embrace, encourage, invite skilled play and skilled players and then be allowed to exclude them. It may take some time, but this will lead to a New Jersey like law, where skilled players can not be barred or banned, which in turn will lead to worse game conditions as casinos scramble to protect their games, just like Jersey.
All casinos have to do is to shave a lilttle off blackjack for bigger bets. They could pay 6:5 for anything under $20 and pay $29 for each $20 blackjacks for $20 and above.
We don't know for a fact that will be the case across the board in NV(hows that working out for NJ nowadays?)Quote: kewlj
You can not embrace, encourage, invite skilled play and skilled players and then be allowed to exclude them. It may take some time, but this will lead to a New Jersey like law, where skilled players can not be barred or banned, which in turn will lead to worse game conditions as casinos scramble to protect their games, just like Jersey.
:(
They are already messing with BJ payouts in NV, it has nothing to do with counters.
Even if they suddenly found a way to get rid of all card counters. I highly doubt casinos would suddenly add great blackjack rules and get rid of the 6:5. They now have figured out they can offer crappy BJ and the suckers will still play.
Big deal if they lose some educated players who really don't add much to the casino profits. If they went to 6:5 across the board, they could make up for it by significantly upping offers like comps/free bets/ rooms/ airfare/promotions. Market the suckers heavily and bingo you will get some good numbers for a while . Careful...eventually people will get sick of losing and the casinos suffer.
Conditions may have originally changed because of card counters but that's not the reason the bad conditions have stayed.
If a casino really wanted to offer great BJ conditions without losing any significant money from counters, its very possible. I'm fairly certain I know how to solve the problem for a small cost.
The darksiders and people like Dan want to blame counters and APs for the horrible condition changes to BJ. They want casinos to think its a big problem. When in fact its them creating all the bad conditions with all the fearmongering, books, seminars and information they give/sell. Its all bad suggestions and the huge game protection fees they charge casinos that's hurting everyone including the ploppies. The funny thing is, the darksiders don't help much. IE Don Johnson, Phil Ivey. Do you think some Darksider figures this stuff out first? No, no, no it eventually gets leaked.
Quote: AxelWolfThe darksiders and people like Dan want to blame counters and APs for the horrible condition changes to BJ. They want casinos to think its a big problem.
It isn't. I don't need to discuss this this execs, almost never do, it's like adjusting a thermostat at this point, and that's between the TGD and the director of surveillance, and maybe a game protection consultant. I'm not in the game protection seminar business or surveillance; I design games, mostly poker, Pai Gow, Baccarat, dice. One BJ related projected won't be countable, though it's next to impossible with Switch's games around, he's in a different league. But the fact of the matter is that table hold is what gets adjusted, and the more that a table loses, the more it is tightened and this may be the result of AP work. You can't expect it to always go unnoticed, it is money. A push over here, something gets pushed back there....
Quote: AxelWolfWhen in fact its them creating all the bad conditions with all the fearmongering, books, seminars and information they give/sell. Its all bad suggestions and the huge game protection fees they charge casinos that's hurting everyone including the ploppies.
A consultant or seminar may give info that is of use, and it may be argued that it's money well spent if it tightens things up to the operator's satisfaction. And I do not think a game consultant can take nearly as much as a team can take out. I wouldn't blame game protection consultants if they are needed because of AP loss issues. If you've been taking someone's money, you can't blame them for calling a locksmith.
I will also say that the bulk of game consultants are ex-AP's or counters, it's what they know best, and they don't always show all that much allegiance to the AP side after a certain point. Some of their advice is very efficient and practical.
Quote: AxelwolfThe funny thing is, the darksiders don't help much. IE Don Johnson, Phil Ivey. Do you think some Darksider figures this stuff out first? No, no, no it eventually gets leaked.
Sometimes they figure it out; in rare cases, and more routinely now, games come out with some or much game protection designed in. Cards aren't dealt until they are needed, and GLI and gaming mathematicians routinely offer or add AP analysis on a game designer's game, so this stuff is now considered before it hits the casino floor.
But the bulk of it gets leaked, loose lips sink ships. Many sites are invaluable.
I don't have the motivation to explain how and why self serving, darkside fear mongering IS what really caused the current crappie BJ conditions. We can also contribute some blame to everyone who wrote sensationalistic BJ books.Quote: PaigowdanIt isn't. I don't need to discuss this this execs, almost never do, it's like adjusting a thermostat at this point, and that's between the TGD and the director of surveillance, and maybe a game protection consultant. I'm not in the game protection seminar business or surveillance; I design games, mostly poker, Pai Gow, Baccarat, dice. One BJ related projected won't be countable, though it's next to impossible with Switch's games around, he's in a different league. But the fact of the matter is that table hold is what gets adjusted, and the more that a table loses, the more it is tightened and this may be the result of AP work. You can't expect it to always go unnoticed, it is money. A push over here, something gets pushed back there....
A consultant or seminar may give info that is of use, and it may be argued that it's money well spent if it tightens things up to the operator's satisfaction. And I do not think a game consultant can take nearly as much as a team can take out. I wouldn't blame game protection consultants if they are needed because of AP loss issues. If you've been taking someone's money, you can't blame them for calling a locksmith.
I will also say that the bulk of game consultants are ex-AP's or counters, it's what they know best, and they don't always show all that much allegiance to the AP side after a certain point. Some of their advice is very efficient and practical.
Sometimes they figure it out; in rare cases, and more routinely now, games come out with some or much game protection designed in. Cards aren't dealt until they are needed, and GLI and gaming mathematicians routinely offer or add AP analysis on a game designer's game, so this stuff is now considered before it hits the casino floor.
But the bulk of it gets leaked, loose lips sink ships. Many sites are invaluable.
EX-AP's or Counters, AS IN... MOSTLY FAILED, proving my point. If they were good enough to consult, they wouldn't be EX-AP's/Counters.Quote: PaigowdanI will also say that the bulk of game consultants are ex-AP's or counters, it's what they know best, and they don't always show all that much allegiance to the AP side after a certain point
Don't give me any retirement or burnt out BS. I know guys that have been doing it since the 70's. Many will do it until the day they die.
There's guys in their 80's still banging away.
Quote: AxelWolf
Don't give me any retirement or burnt out BS. I know guys that have been doing it since the 70's. Many will do it until the day they die.
There's guys in their 80's still banging away.
Dan will tell you this is mostly myth
and urban legend. It's well known
that counters die early deaths,
mostly from shame and the realization
that they're just common criminals,
trying to rob the casinos of a decent
and honorable way of making a living.
Sniff..
Quote: AxelWolfI don't have the motivation to explain how and why self serving, darkside fear mongering IS what really caused the current crappie BJ conditions. We can also contribute some blame to everyone who wrote sensationalistic BJ books.
Accountants and executives made these decisions to tighten tables, and it was the desire for money, not fear, that motivated them. Less AP loss and leakage can be more money kept for the house, the operator, and its shareholders, and if the ploppies play the games, they're good. They look for the best balance, and sometimes it's tight.
The desire or need for money and profit made the tables tighter but still acceptable to ploppies, but perhaps a bit too tight for AP satisfaction, and that desire for that money and profit is also the exact same motivator between the casino executive and AP player alike. Any arguments that "I'm only fighting for truth, justice, and the American way against the evil Darth Vader casinos" could be taken with a grain of salt. The cat and mouse fight is for the same cheese, profit, and not recreation. Remember, professional players don't do it for charity like Mother Teresa, they do it for their own personal financial gain, as they aren't by any stretch of the imagination recreational players being pros. In this regard, while it can be satisfying to some as a job or career, still the APs can't really claim moral superiority by (arguably) skimming the businesses that are offering them the games in the first place, (as they are taking for themselves and families, basically), and while nominally or pretending to be gaming industry customers themselves. They can at times say that there are making a living off of the gaming industry, - though not in the same way as gaming industry employees. Now this may cause some cognitive dissonance.
I used to work for the Clark County School District in the day as a high school math teacher, while I dealt at night for Stations. So I would see something like this and this both day and night, and feel that the industry isn't all that bad in this town. Other operators chipped in too, making an effort to be good citizens.
Quote: AxelWolfEX-AP's or Counters, AS IN... MOSTLY FAILED, proving my point. If they were good enough to consult, they wouldn't be EX-AP's/Counters.
Maybe so. And these guys are viewed as turncoats. But many know their stuff, and are now helping the industry. Their decision.
Quote: AxelWolfDon't give me any retirement or burnt out BS. I know guys that have been doing it since the 70's. Many will do it until the day they die.
There's guys in their 80's still banging away.
I'm sure. People have different callings, and some have long careers.
Quote: Paigowdanstill the APs can't really claim moral superiority by skimming the businesses that are offering them the games in the first place, as they are taking for themselves and families, basically, and while nominally or pretending to be gaming industry customers themselves.
Moral superiority? In a casino? They want the
customers money, the AP wants the casinos
money. And the AP has been invited there,
with open arms. The casinos are con artists,
bitter that they get beat at their own game
by AP's.
Moral superiority. Talk about an oxymoron..
Quote: EvenBobMoral superiority? In a casino? They want the
customers money, the AP wants the casinos
money. And the AP has been invited there,
with open arms. The casinos are con artists,
bitter that they get beat at their own game
by AP's.
Moral superiority. Talk about an oxymoron..
I personally came to terms about being an AP, providing no societal benefit whatsoever, like daytraders. I enjoyed playing and beating games since I was a kid so I'm just happy to be able to do so for a living. Many people have jobs that they don't feel fulfilled in or feel they make a difference, but they don't mind collecting the paychecks.
Quote: djatcI personally came to terms about being an AP, providing no societal benefit whatsoever, like daytraders. I enjoyed playing and beating games since I was a kid so I'm just happy to be able to do so for a living. Many people have jobs that they don't feel fulfilled in or feel they make a difference, but they don't mind collecting the paychecks.
That's fine. We all make our living, and follow our own compasses. Frank Lucas was friends with Richie Roberts. DAs become defense attorneys. I try to make games that are AP resistant. You try to bust 'em. Life goes on.
Quote: MintyIf I'm remembering correctly, it was Ian Anderson who wrote about a series of worldviews that card counters (could be generalized to other APs too), often end up having. One was the crusader, believing it was the right thing to do to fight against the "evil" casinos. Another was the philanthropist, making money that could be used to support others. I think there was also the pragmatist who played the game because they enjoyed it, and liked putting their skills to use. It was these views that helped keep APs from quitting and moving onto something else. A bit of an interesting addition to an already good book.
Yes, it is. There's a huge sense of that attempt to justify, there really is, - when all that needs to be said "My wife is happy, the kids go to private school, lobster for dinner, I enjoy the game, WTH, life is all right." If you're going that path, This is honest. This I'd respect.
Quote: MintyAnd I'd be lying if I said that none of them appreciate the surveillance side. Some of us still are in casinos at least in part for the thrill, eh?
Oh, [PFFT], yes.
For some, the juice is in getting a royal, throwing a very long hand at dice, the fall of the cards, the roll of the dice, just straight up gambling.
For others, I honestly feel there is juice in seeing what kind of stuff you can surreptitiously get away with, flying under the radar of casino surveillance like you were flying a load of 100 kilos into the port of Miami in a Cessna. For some AP-er's and even cheats, this was an irresistible lure.
Recreational players are viewed with contempt and are called ploppies, all straight-laced, naïve, and goody two shoes for being straight up gamblers who just enjoy gambling. Nothing feels like a really long roll at a crap table, and it's 100% straight up.
Recreational players are fine with casino people, view them as workers and even services providers. I'm sure there are sports bettors who cannot go to a game without action, and just have a hot dog and beer for a full nine-inning stretch. ("They WON - and I didn't have a piece in??!! AUUGH!")
Me, I don't want to lose that.....
Quote: djatcI personally came to terms about being an AP, providing no societal benefit whatsoever, like daytraders.
What's there to come to terms with? There are millions of jobs that are just middleman or paper pusher type jobs that don't contribute much to society. Yeah, you are not building houses, or healing people like a doctor, but you are earning an honest living.
You then take that compensation and you DO contribute to society. You buy clothing, housing, toys, food (in your case it sounds like a lot of fast food...lol) all of which keeps other people in the work force. I recently spent a good chunk of coin on a swimming pool repair. That kept people employed. I will even make the argument that I keep some folks in the casino industry working.....some of the very folks that want to stop me from plying my trade. How's that for ironic. :/
Quote: kewljWhat's there to come to terms with? There are millions of jobs that are just middleman or paper pusher type jobs that don't contribute much to society. Yeah, you are not building houses, or healing people like a doctor, but you are earning an honest living.
You then take that compensation and you DO contribute to society. You buy clothing, housing, toys, food (in your case it sounds like a lot of fast food...lol) all of which keeps other people in the work force. I recently spent a good chunk of coin on a swimming pool repair. That kept people employed. I will even make the argument that I keep some folks in the casino industry working.....some of the very folks that want to stop me from plying my trade. How's that for ironic. :/
Not to mention the books, movies and material posted online that APs inspire. All of that contributes to society, even if it is just for entertainment.
Quote: MintyNot to mention the books, movies and material posted online that APs inspire. All of that contributes to society, even if it is just for entertainment.
That's True.
I can't image what Martin Scorsese, Robert De Niro, or Joe Pesci's Career path would look like without organized crime existing. In a strange way, it turns a sow's ear into a silk purse. Thank G-d for non-Chick flicks. If you loved their movies, it's at least a silver lining. ;)
Quote: MaxPenThis happened tonight. I was playing blackjack with cards running against me. Taking quite a beating on two hand play. Ten count +14. Spread to 2 hands with 25 max on the Ladies and hit 1 match suited 20, and 1 suited 20. Following 2 hands hit a BJ and 20. Finished session up 475 after playing a few more hands. Colored up and left the table for the cage. Small casino with cage close to table. I went around the pit after cashing and could hear the dealer talking to the boss, " I almost had him until he hit that matched and suited 20." They were commiserating with each other. Another fine example of upstanding casino personnel. I usually tip well in this place because it is small. The dealer talking to the boss has been toked well by me, many times, and I actually like playing with him. I am done. It will be an unusual occurence for me to tip any dealer in the future.
I hate that from casino employees. Most view themselves as neutral Umpires, not participants, which is what they are and should be.
Quote: kewljWhat's there to come to terms with? There are millions of jobs that are just middleman or paper pusher type jobs that don't contribute much to society. Yeah, you are not building houses, or healing people like a doctor, but you are earning an honest living.
At one point in my life before I started to AP for a living I did think to myself, "how would this profession contribute to society?" because I do want to do something that is for the greater good. I felt that I can't help people unless I have the resources to provide for myself and to help others. The means to the end is to AP which will give me a living, and eventually have time and money to help others. I do what I can now but now that we (our "team") have grown pretty large we are able to help new people who want to make a little money who otherwise do not have the option to.
But then again this is just me rambling, I could be wrong.
Moral superiority? Casinos have NONE. Casinos giving to charities is about PR.Quote: Paigowdan
If Nevada passed a law allowing children to gamble the casinos would be asking for disney slots faster than you could say Mickey Mouse.
They would comp candy bars.
Is there any Moral superiority in Online casino affiliate websites?
Professional poker players master taking advantage of fish (people) Wiki: Barry Greenstein (born December 30, 1954 in Chicago, Illinois) is an American professional poker player. He has won a number of major events, including three at th. World Series of Poker and two on the World Poker Tour. Greenstein donates his profit from tournament winnings to charities, primarily Children, Incorporated, earning him the nickname "the Robin Hood of poker".[1] He was elected into the Poker Hall of Fame in 2011.
It's not what you do for a living, its what you do in life.
I don't believe in noble professions I believe in noble people.
Quote: MaxPenThis happened tonight. I was playing blackjack with cards running against me. Taking quite a beating on two hand play. Ten count +14. Spread to 2 hands with 25 max on the Ladies and hit 1 match suited 20, and 1 suited 20. Following 2 hands hit a BJ and 20. Finished session up 475 after playing a few more hands. Colored up and left the table for the cage. Small casino with cage close to table. I went around the pit after cashing and could hear the dealer talking to the boss, " I almost had him until he hit that matched and suited 20." They were commiserating with each other. Another fine example of upstanding casino personnel. I usually tip well in this place because it is small. The dealer talking to the boss has been toked well by me, many times, and I actually like playing with him. I am done. It will be an unusual occurence for me to tip any dealer in the future.
Don't be too hard on that dealer. He may have been telling the boss what he wanted to hear. Play with him enough times and you'll know. I don't tip blackjack dealers and I do not tell others not to tip. I wonder if they talk about me. :-)
Quote: PaigowdanA2, I read that, but skilled play has always been the case with strategy games.
I don't understand...Blackjack is a game in which you can use a strategy and skill--if it has always been the case with skilled play, as you say above, why do counters get the boot?
Under non-existent house rules. I understand the whole thing about every rule not being written down BUT, if you have something that happens a lot, there are times the rules need to be written down. Why won't casinos commit their house rules on this subject to paper? Simple--they know they are playing on the edge and want to have it both ways.
I'm betting a study of total return would show that the casinos lose more money and create more animosity by worrying about counters than they would by using that same money to figure out how to give people solid treatment. The pit critter hawking a table for a suspected counter could be making other customers happy with a little banter, making sure the drinks are coming out, tossing out some comps, and watching the games with the intent of making sure the customers have fun and the game is protected.
Quote: AxelWolfMoral superiority? Casinos have NONE. Casinos giving to charities is about PR.
Sure. But the money, contribution, and benefits are real. Do AP outfits give to charities?
Quote: AxelWolfIf Nevada passed a law allowing children to gamble the casinos would be asking for disney slots faster than you could say Mickey Mouse.
They would comp candy bars.
This is a flat-out ludicrous claim. You could also say Pubs and Cocktail lounges are evil by claiming that "they would sell to toddlers if they could, - so there, that proves it's true." And they could spike Chocolate milk with Kahlua. This isn't approved either.
Quote: AxelWolfIs there any Moral superiority in Online casino affiliate websites?
Huh? I don't consider them casinos with people, as they computer programs running on servers.
Quote: AxelWolfProfessional poker players master taking advantage of fish (people) Wiki: Barry Greenstein (born December 30, 1954 in Chicago, Illinois) is an American professional poker player. He has won a number of major events, including three at th. World Series of Poker and two on the World Poker Tour. Greenstein donates his profit from tournament winnings to charities, primarily Children, Incorporated, earning him the nickname "the Robin Hood of poker".[1] He was elected into the Poker Hall of Fame in 2011.
Sure. Rules in player banked games differ from house bank games. The casino receives a rental fee for the poker room (called a "rake") while the players choose to slap each other around openly viewing each other as fish. Says a lot about gamblers' attitudes.
But in house-banked play it is NOT about taking advantage of fish (people), it is really about letting the cards or dice determine the outcome with acceptance and in accordance with additional rules (ICs) about not allowing trap-doors, which in blackjack may include getting caught running down a shoe. Certain AP techniques and methodologies are simply barred, to include card counting in blackjack. Legality isn't the issue, as legality still doesn't give you the right to use AP techniques that are barred by the house.
Quote: AxelWolfIt's not what you do for a living, its what you do in life.
What a person does for a living may be a big part of what he does in life. There are mafia hit men who killed scores of people who are really great company at a ball game or picnic.
Quote: AxelWolfI don't believe in noble professions I believe in noble people.
So do I. I don't believe in noble professions, as bad apples can hurt a noble profession. Both Lincoln and Stalin were Politicians and ostensibly public servants. But I do believe some income sources may be misguided, and/or contribute less on the whole.
Quote: RonCI don't understand...Blackjack is a game in which you can use a strategy and skill--if it has always been the case with skilled play, as you say above, why do counters get the boot?
I stated this clearly: because more is involved than just claiming to have a particular skill, it is how you use the skill as per the parameters of the venue: if the skill is used in a fashion acceptable for the venue, it is accepted; if a skill is used in an unacceptable fashion, it may result in a back off action. The examples I gave where skills can be used appropriately or unacceptably were accountancy (which can be used for the proper reporting of financial figures, or for embezzlement), and lock-smithing (which can be used to protect people or for burglary). And the legality argument is mute, because we already agree you do not get arrested or incarcerated for card-counting, but you may be backed off, which also is legal. The skill has to be appropriate for the venue of the house. If it's okay with them, then fine, if not, then perhaps goodnight, but no arrest for that.
Quote: RonCUnder non-existent house rules. I understand the whole thing about every rule not being written down BUT, if you have something that happens a lot, there are times the rules need to be written down. Why won't casinos commit their house rules on this subject to paper? Simple--they know they are playing on the edge and want to have it both ways.
They are written down. There called "ICs" or Casino Internal Controls, and they are written down and followed for these actions, particularly because there could be legal ramifications. Discussed earlier in the thread also.
Quote: RonCI'm betting a study of total return would show that the casinos lose more money and create more animosity by worrying about counters than they would by using that same money to figure out how to give people solid treatment. The pit critter hawking a table for a suspected counter could be making other customers happy with a little banter, making sure the drinks are coming out, tossing out some comps, and watching the games with the intent of making sure the customers have fun and the game is protected.
If you feel that way, then run your own "Ron C. casino" and see what happens to your card room when there are zero controls when money is involved. If there weren't any limits at all, then no flat-betting or back offs would need to occur, and they are known to happen.
They WANT the many people who THINK they can count but can't.
Quote: darthxaosIf the casinos really wanted to ban card counting, they would simply make every single table flat bets only. They don't want to ban card counting, they only want to ban SUCCESSFUL card counting.
They WANT the many people who THINK they can count but can't.
Or at least not have huge min to max limits. Honestly, there is no reason for a $25 min/$5000 max. Make it $25/$200, $10/$50, etc.
Quote: darthxaosIf the casinos really wanted to ban card counting, they would simply make every single table flat bets only. They don't want to ban card counting, they only want to ban SUCCESSFUL card counting.
They WANT the many people who THINK they can count but can't.
Table limits are an accepted practice that is also safe for non-counters. Why should ploppies - who don't unacceptably take advantage of a game - be denied the full game just because a small percentage of players are AP players will try?
And yes, wider table limits make a game more attractive to players. Plus, non-AP players are allowed to raise and lower their bets in blackjack. We see them do it all the time without issue because they're not considered a threat. Because ploppies aren't counting, the house is fine with it. And I'm not saying they play by different rules, they're playing by the same rules: running down the deck may be disallowed, and they're not running down the deck with their bet raises.
