Playing Rated vs. Unrated

I wanted to get AP BJ players opinions, on the question:

Play Rated or Unrated at the blackjack tables?

Pro's? Con's ?

This is what I can contribute to the subject
(I'll throw out the obvious ones first):

Playing Rated:

Pro's: -Rack up Comps and Comp Dollars/ free rooms/ offers
-no betting restrictions, if casino's require a card not be be limited to playing multiple hands or betting table max
-dosen't look like your trying to hide your play to the pit personnel

Con's: -Your play is being recorded and attached to your name, the casino is recording your wins/losses/ skill level / bet average, and god knows what else.

Playing Unrated:

Pro's: - They don't know who you are (at least not immediately, if there are no pictures of you on a list of card counters)
-they are not recording your win/loss/skill level/ bet average onto a players account

Cons: No comps/rooms/offers/comp dollars

I am battling with this decision, wether to play rated or unrated upon going out to vegas. I played rated all the time here on the east coast, all the way up until the casino eighter flat betted or restricted me from playing in their establishment. I then would go back after some time and play unrated.

I feel if I just played unrated from the beginning, I could have had more longevity at that particular casino. I hate losing out on free stuff, comp dollars, free rooms, offers, but also know if your counting, its best to play unrated, so your not so easily tracked. I'm battling with this decision.

I would like to get others views on this topic.

I would say a lot of players put off making that decision until they have to, which in a sense makes the decision for you. In other words, they play rated and take the extra EV of comps, as long as they can. But once your play starts to generate backoffs and barings, it is time to give up playing rated and play anonymously.

Sometimes the decision is made for you, as one of the first countermeasures taken by a casino, even before backoffs and barings, is to cut back or eliminate the comps they give you. They can do this by re-designating your rating to 'possible AP', which will stop or greatly reduce the flow of comps and offers, or they can go a step further and even zero out your accounts of any comps previously earned but not used. This would be a good time to start playing unrated, as once one property does this, the information tends to spread.

In your situation of heading to Vegas, where they don't know you, I would play rated and take the comps and offers for a while. It's extra EV.

Quote: stabworld

I wanted to get AP BJ players opinions, on the question:

Play Rated or Unrated at the blackjack tables?

Pro's? Con's ?

This is what I can contribute to the subject
(I'll throw out the obvious ones first):

Playing Rated:

Pro's: -Rack up Comps and Comp Dollars/ free rooms/ offers
-no betting restrictions, if casino's require a card not be be limited to playing multiple hands or betting table max

No betting restrictions? So if I have a card I can bet $10 to $1000 and I won't have any restrictions/issues? This also depends on your betting limits. If you're playing blacks (spreading 1-4 or whatever it may be) you pretty much can't play unrated without having problems. Quarters you could get away with until you start betting a couple hundred a hand/spread over a couple hands... Nickles you shouldn't have problems with unless you're going over 1-15 spread and not ramping properly.

Quote: stabworld

-dosen't look like your trying to hide your play to the pit personnel

Con's: -Your play is being recorded and attached to your name, the casino is recording your wins/losses/ skill level / bet average, and god knows what else.

To a skilled AP/BJ player this is not a bad thing. Through ratholing and other techniques there's quite often ways to over report your losses and under report your wins. One of my main casinos has me down as losing 4 figures every year for the past 3 years. I haven't had a losing year with them in the past 3 years =). One would think this would get you even more comps/etc.

Quote: stabworld

Playing Unrated:

Pro's: - They don't know who you are (at least not immediately, if there are no pictures of you on a list of card counters)
-they are not recording your win/loss/skill level/ bet average onto a players account

You're either made or you're not. If you're a known face then you simply can't play rated because your name is burned. If you're not made then you should be able to play. Do note something... This gig will eventually be up. No matter what, after months, years, or decades, they will catch on. You're a winning player playing a winning game. Eventually you'll fall outside of their standard deviations for your play and they'll realize they had you figured wrong. This is why a lot of players try to have one property/group that's their "comp" property... where they spread lighter, play a break even game, etc. This way you won't have to worry about them finding out you're a winning player and you can get your comps/hotels at destinations/etc, but then hit other near by places unrated to get your real EV.

Quote: stabworld

Cons: No comps/rooms/offers/comp dollars

I am battling with this decision, wether to play rated or unrated upon going out to vegas. I played rated all the time here on the east coast, all the way up until the casino eighter flat betted or restricted me from playing in their establishment. I then would go back after some time and play unrated.

I feel if I just played unrated from the beginning, I could have had more longevity at that particular casino. I hate losing out on free stuff, comp dollars, free rooms, offers, but also know if your counting, its best to play unrated, so your not so easily tracked. I'm battling with this decision.

I would like to get others views on this topic.

Vegas is the easiest decision to make... Play rated at the place you want comps. Play break even or barely profitable spread. Employ cover in to your game when you know PB's are watching so hopefully they mark notes that you're a ploppy. Then walk right next door to another property/group and smash them. Then walk to the next, and the next, etc. There are literally too many places to play in Vegas between the strip, downtown, and all of the surrounding areas (GVR area, Cannery area, Stations area, etc, etc, etc); pick a direction and go.

Advice: Play rated at the place you want comped, which may also be a 'local home' place. Play unrated with short sessions everywhere else for your EV. BTW since you've already been flagged at one group of properties in AC, you should get a card at another in Vegas and try to start building comps there, since you won't get any at your original flagged shop.

Quote: Romes

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Vegas is the easiest decision to make... Play rated at the place you want comps. Play break even or barely profitable spread. Employ cover in to your game when you know PB's are watching so hopefully they mark notes that you're a ploppy. Then walk right next door to another property/group and smash them. Then walk to the next, and the next, etc. There are literally too many places to play in Vegas between the strip, downtown, and all of the surrounding areas (GVR area, Cannery area, Stations area, etc, etc, etc); pick a direction and go.

I like this idea. Thanks.

Quote: Romes

Advice: Play rated at the place you want comped, which may also be a 'local home' place. Play unrated with short sessions everywhere else for your EV. BTW since you've already been flagged at one group of properties in AC, you should get a card at another in Vegas and try to start building comps there, since you won't get any at your original flagged shop.

Great Advice! Thanks. What's odd is that I have been flagged in 1 of the properties, (TR) in AC, but I am still getting all the room offers, even for Vegas. I don't know if they are just slow in taking that away, or what.

Quote: kewlj

Sometimes the decision is made for you, as one of the first countermeasures taken by a casino, even before backoffs and barings, is to cut back or eliminate the comps they give you.

Do you know which properties do this?

Don't think they don't know who unrated players are. You think APs are sneaky, you ain't seen nothin'.

Quote: Donuts

Do you know which properties do this?

Well Borgota and the Golden Nugget (AC) both froze my comp accounts. I tried to get it reinstated, with the promise of only playing poker and not blackjack, didn't work. $350 in comp dollars down the drain, that I could have used in restaurants. Oh well.

IMO, if you're out visiting Vegas, play unrated. Maybe play rated at one casino to generate offers....but not everywhere. Of course it depends on your BR and how far you want to take this down the road. In the future, you might have to play rated because you're betting 2 hands of 1000. If you don't see yourself going up in stakes down the road and think you're always gonna play as a hobby (idk your situation) then play rated and get your free buffet.

Quote: stabworld

Well Borgota and the Golden Nugget (AC) both froze my comp accounts. I tried to get it reinstated, with the promise of only playing poker and not blackjack, didn't work. $350 in comp dollars down the drain, that I could have used in restaurants. Oh well.

Once they freeze your accounts, you're done playing rated at that property, and probably all their sister properties. Don't bother pleading or asking them to explain. It's done. It may take them some time for all the properties in their group to get the word about you, but as someone else mentioned they'll figure it out eventually. Just play unrated there or not at all.

Quote: Romes

Vegas is the easiest decision to make... Play rated at the place you want comps. Play break even or barely profitable spread. Employ cover in to your game when you know PB's are watching so hopefully they mark notes that you're a ploppy. Then walk right next door to another property/group and smash them. Then walk to the next, and the next, etc. There are literally too many places to play in Vegas between the strip, downtown, and all of the surrounding areas (GVR area, Cannery area, Stations area, etc, etc, etc); pick a direction and go.

Ive read quite a few similar comments to this. You talk as if you can control if youre going to win and how much you will win. How are you guys so confident that you can control your winnings. How are you able to break even at one place and make bank at another. Is this done through card counting or from years of experience?

Quote: jayjasonjay

Ive read quite a few similar comments to this. You talk as if you can control if youre going to win and how much you will win. How are you guys so confident that you can control your winnings. How are you able to break even at one place and make bank at another. Is this done through card counting or from years of experience?

He's talking in terms of 'expected value' or expected win/loss, not actual wins or losses. Actual results WILL vary.

Aye kewlj, I PM'ed you - A few day's back before I took off to vegas. Are you able to receive PM's?

If your goal is comps, you could scale back your ramp to hold more or less even (very minimal edge), but with a good sized unit, and play rated like that at a few places. Earn your comps, have a place to stay and eat, not pay much for them. Makes heavy use of index plays, and you're still putting a fair amount of money into action. Obviously, if you see a once in a lifetime count, maybe press your bet on wins.


You could do what you like other places with a more aggressive ramp.

Quote: Dieter

If your goal is comps, you could scale back your ramp to hold more or less even (very minimal edge), but with a good sized unit, and play rated like that at a few places. Earn your comps, have a place to stay and eat, not pay much for them. Makes heavy use of index plays, and you're still putting a fair amount of money into action. Obviously, if you see a once in a lifetime count, maybe press your bet on wins.


You could do what you like other places with a more aggressive ramp.

Good advice. Thanks.