Hi-Lo and Hi-Opt Indices

I've recently taken an interest in playing more (and playing better at) Blackjack, and I've scoured the Wizard of Odds site and Googled this until my eyes are fried, even buying Wong's Professional Blackjack, but I couldn't find an answer: Do I use the normal Hi-Lo indices, even with a Hi-Opt count? Wong's tables indicate to stand on a hard 16 v 10 with a true count of 0 or more using Hi-Lo, but I've read sites with tables that say not to stand until the true count is 1 or 2 for Hi-Opt 1. Which is correct? I realize that the advantage for applying one over the other would be pretty slim, but I know I'll be paralyzed at the casino if I were to get that hand and my Hi-Opt count was barely over 0.

Follow-up: I guess this would apply to Hi-Opt 2 as well if I ever get confident enough to learn it.

Hi limey, welcome to the forums.

I'm not a Hi-Opt specialist, but I wanted to get your thread rolling and hopefully one of the other Hi-Opt users will respond. You say on other sites you've read for Hi-Opt 1 you should stand on 16 v 10 at +1 or +2... Well which was it? Could you link those sites? If the sites appear to have some merit to them, and explain why, then I would think to believe them. As a hi/low player I can tell you the reason basic strategy says to hit 16 v 10 is because there's no combination of 16 v 10 you can make off the top of a deal that doesn't involve a negative count. It's always -1 (even for hi-opt 1). Thus, for it to be even, or positive, when you find yourself in the situation of 16 v 10 there absolutely has got to be at least 1 or 2 more "small cards" removed than big cards. With this knowledge alone (and the fact that 16 vs 10 is such a close play off the top) I would think the correct play from Basic Strategy is to stay, regardless if you're using Hi/Low or Hi-Opt 1.

In his training courses Semyon Dukach even states this is such a close decision that if you're torn (i.e. in your position) one could even use the current cards on the table as a reference whether to hit or not. He stated if there are any 5's on the table to stay, otherwise take the hit. Again, this is presuming you're at a point where Hi/Low TC = 0 and Hi-Opt 1 TC = +1... in which you're saying you're not sure what to do.

Hopefully someone whom specializes in Hi-Opt 1 can chime in, but for my 2 cents I would stay in a TC >= 0, even with Hi-Opt 1 (which is a very similar count to Hi/Low anyways).

Would you not surrender 16 v 10 if at all possible first? I am guessing we are assuming the casino doesn't offer surrender?

Quote: Hubomba

Would you not surrender 16 v 10 if at all possible first? I am guessing we are assuming the casino doesn't offer surrender?

Yes, we are assuming the casino doesn't offer surrender or you have more than 2 cards. But yes always surrender 16 v 10 unless you know the correct index

What's the reason for learning Hi Opt I? Are you using an Ace side count? Are you going to play primarily single deck? If not, why not just learn Hi-Lo? You already have Wong's book, and as you are now finding out, it's easier to find information on Hi-Lo than Hi Opt I. I can name 5 sites that will list the top 18 index plays for Hi Lo. Not sure if I can name one site that gives the indices for Hi Opt I.

So my suggestion is to just go with Hi Lo since the information is easier to find. Unless you are following along with a very good tutorial that uses Hi Opt I, you can stick to learning that count (but if this tutorial is really that good, you wouldn't be having doubts about the index for 16v10). Both counts will get you the money (so long as you use them correctly)

I guess this is as good a time as ever to ask a question of my own about hi-lo indicies without making a new thread. It has to do with 8/8 vs 10

Wong's book says surrender at TC >= +1
However it also says to split at TC <= +8 ( H17, DAS )

Obviously these indicies overlap, I take it that the surrendering index should take priority, especially at the higher TCs? The game I am specifically using this for is
6D, H17, DAS, Late Surrender, Dealer Peek, RAS 4x, Double Any Two.

Similarly for 8,8 vs A

TC >= -1 Split
TC < +4 Surrender

So Surrender at TC < +4, Split at TC >= +4?

Thanks for any help.

Surrender before splitting, standing, hitting

Quote: Avincow

Surrender before splitting, standing, hitting

This.... Surrender.

The two links that I found on Hi Opt 1 indices:


which indicates to stand on +2 for 16 v 10. The text file looks like it's from a pretty old article, but the basic strategy listed on it looks right to me except for a couple instances.

I'm not sure how trustworthy this document is. I initially thought it said to stand on +1 for 16 v 10 but now that I look at it again, it says +0, like for Hi-Lo. I must have remembered the footnote instead of the actual index number (oops!)

The only reason I would think to stand on a higher count is because Aces and 2's in the deck would keep you from busting, but they're not being counted in Hi Opt 1...

I want to use Hi-Opt 1 with a side count of Aces since Hi-Opt 1 supposedly has a higher PE than Hi-Lo, and the Ace side count should make up for the loss of BC for switching to Hi-Opt 1. That does make me wonder how accurate the reports on higher PE would be if the indices aren't really that accessible.

The casino closest to me has Single Deck, No Surrender, No DAS, Double any 1st two cards, H17. Since it's Single Deck, I thought PE would be pretty important.

Quote: limey250

The two links that I found on Hi Opt 1 indices:

http://www.textfiles.com/fun/hi-opt-1.txt
which indicates to stand on +2 for 16 v 10. The text file looks like it's from a pretty old article, but the basic strategy listed on it looks right to me except for a couple instances.

http://www.onagerware.com/images/Hi-Opt_I_1_or_2_decks_with_no_DAS_no_Surrender_dbl_any_2_cards_DHit_S-17.pdf
I'm not sure how trustworthy this document is. I initially thought it said to stand on +1 for 16 v 10 but now that I look at it again, it says +0, like for Hi-Lo. I must have remembered the footnote instead of the actual index number (oops!)

The only reason I would think to stand on a higher count is because Aces and 2's in the deck would keep you from busting, but they're not being counted in Hi Opt 1...

I want to use Hi-Opt 1 with a side count of Aces since Hi-Opt 1 supposedly has a higher PE than Hi-Lo, and the Ace side count should make up for the loss of BC for switching to Hi-Opt 1. That does make me wonder how accurate the reports on higher PE would be if the indices aren't really that accessible.

The casino closest to me has Single Deck, No Surrender, No DAS, Double any 1st two cards, H17. Since it's Single Deck, I thought PE would be pretty important.

You should invest in the software at qfit.com. It will give you the indices that you are looking for. Additionally, it will give you what kind of bet spread you should use, risk of ruin, expected value, etc.

Quote: limey250

The two links that I found on Hi Opt 1 indices:

http://www.textfiles.com/fun/hi-opt-1.txt
which indicates to stand on +2 for 16 v 10. The text file looks like it's from a pretty old article, but the basic strategy listed on it looks right to me except for a couple instances.

http://www.onagerware.com/images/Hi-Opt_I_1_or_2_decks_with_no_DAS_no_Surrender_dbl_any_2_cards_DHit_S-17.pdf
I'm not sure how trustworthy this document is. I initially thought it said to stand on +1 for 16 v 10 but now that I look at it again, it says +0, like for Hi-Lo. I must have remembered the footnote instead of the actual index number (oops!)

The only reason I would think to stand on a higher count is because Aces and 2's in the deck would keep you from busting, but they're not being counted in Hi Opt 1...

I want to use Hi-Opt 1 with a side count of Aces since Hi-Opt 1 supposedly has a higher PE than Hi-Lo, and the Ace side count should make up for the loss of BC for switching to Hi-Opt 1. That does make me wonder how accurate the reports on higher PE would be if the indices aren't really that accessible.

The casino closest to me has Single Deck, No Surrender, No DAS, Double any 1st two cards, H17. Since it's Single Deck, I thought PE would be pretty important.

What's the penetration?