VPPlayer
VPPlayer
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March 8th, 2015 at 4:49:40 AM permalink
I got backed off at MGM for counting last year. Obviously my players card is now worthless and can't be used.

Is it possible for me to get a new players card? I actually moved to a different state, so I have a new ID. Obviously my name and birthdate is the same.

I'd love to be able to sign up as a new player and get a new card.

Any thoughts / comments?

Thanks
GWAE
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March 8th, 2015 at 5:11:25 AM permalink
Why would you think a new state would matter?

I guess there could be people with the exact same name a day date of birth but they also have your picture from the old ID.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
FleaStiff
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March 8th, 2015 at 6:46:14 AM permalink
backed off or "trespassed warning"???
Baccaratfrom79
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March 8th, 2015 at 6:50:22 AM permalink
I played for years unrated until the day I went over $10k Buy-in in collectively and that was it. But that was at only one place. Why cant you AP'ers just play without rating as 'Seat 1' or 'Seat 2', etc. If you are AP'er you don't need their measly free crap??? Just wondering. No offense.
Bac79=Hazardous Material and Chemical person correcting other's mistakes. Non AP'er, I can't count cards, low intelligence. Sprinkles magical dust on the cards. Has a lucky monkey. Baby also has a green one. Sum it up: "It's okay just blame me, it's all my fault"! ( No one believes me--so I chose to stop posting)
1BB
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March 8th, 2015 at 6:57:19 AM permalink
Quote: Baccaratfrom79

I played for years unrated until the day I went over $10k Buy-in in collectively and that was it. But that was at only one place. Why cant you AP'ers just play without rating as 'Seat 1' or 'Seat 2', etc. If you are AP'er you don't need their measly free crap??? Just wondering. No offense.



Playing unrated can be big red flag to the pit. If you play unrated at Borgata, for example, your betting is automatically restricted before you play one hand.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Baccaratfrom79
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March 8th, 2015 at 7:07:28 AM permalink
Then the past several years things have changed in AC. I still pop in places in Vegas (where I don't stay) and will play a quick session unrated without ever anything being said, Baccarat and BJ occasionally. Last trip at least 2 places, buy-in $1000.00 and played $100-$300 a hand, no one ever batted an eye or cared.
Bac79=Hazardous Material and Chemical person correcting other's mistakes. Non AP'er, I can't count cards, low intelligence. Sprinkles magical dust on the cards. Has a lucky monkey. Baby also has a green one. Sum it up: "It's okay just blame me, it's all my fault"! ( No one believes me--so I chose to stop posting)
RonC
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March 8th, 2015 at 7:12:05 AM permalink
I guess playing unrated could be a red flag to the pit but I always see tons of people doing it at EVERY game on each trip. The games where the house sees no chance for AP play they won't much care. On a game like Blackjack, I can see them caring but I think that is where you just need to do as most of the APs around here recommend--play short sessions and move on.
1BB
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March 8th, 2015 at 7:13:02 AM permalink
They don't care about rating baccarat at the Borg, they only care about blackjack. I wonder why that is.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
darkoz
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March 8th, 2015 at 7:38:34 AM permalink
You can see about getting an alias. The government hands those out. There are certain requirements but the casino will not recognize your new name.

Aliases are legal and used quite often, especially in the entertainment world.

John Wayne is the best example. That is what appeared on all his legal identification. But look up his birth certificate and SS # and that is not the name you would see.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
VPPlayer
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March 8th, 2015 at 8:54:01 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

backed off or "trespassed warning"???



Those are two different things. I said backed off. "Sir you can play anything but blackjack....."
VPPlayer
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March 8th, 2015 at 8:55:46 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Why would you think a new state would matter?

I guess there could be people with the exact same name a day date of birth but they also have your picture from the old ID.



Are you sure they have my picture from my old ID? If that's the case then I wouldn't be able to get a new ID with the same name.
Dieter
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March 8th, 2015 at 9:06:23 AM permalink
Quote: VPPlayer

Are you sure they have my picture from my old ID? If that's the case then I wouldn't be able to get a new ID with the same name.



Around here, when signing up for a new player's card, they ask for your ID.

They scan the face of your ID into the computer. Any time anyone pulls up your player account at the booth, the pit, the hotel, or restaurant, they can click on the "See ID" button and see that you look like your ID (or not).

Your mileage may vary.

The flipside of that is that they also ask "have you had a players card with us before?" A skillfully chosen one word response may have them push the "new player" button instead of the "lookup existing account" button.

Again, your mileage may vary.

If they hand you a new card and it already has points on the account, you probably didn't get a new account, and you can assume that the new card still says you can't play blackjack.
May the cards fall in your favor.
RS
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March 8th, 2015 at 12:08:46 PM permalink
I've gotten a new card (different number and all) using the same ID through a major non-MGM chain. Then I got a new ID from a different state and got a third account.

So yes, it is possible.
BoulderDamIt
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March 8th, 2015 at 12:09:14 PM permalink
Quote: VPPlayer

Are you sure they have my picture from my old ID? If that's the case then I wouldn't be able to get a new ID with the same name.


He meant the casino already has your picture from your old ID.
If you go in with your new ID they'll pull the old picture and compare.
Avincow
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March 8th, 2015 at 12:23:14 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

You can see about getting an alias. The government hands those out. There are certain requirements but the casino will not recognize your new name.

Aliases are legal and used quite often, especially in the entertainment world.

John Wayne is the best example. That is what appeared on all his legal identification. But look up his birth certificate and SS # and that is not the name you would see.



so if i change my name to Ben Dover, that name will appear on my driver's license and that will be the name that I use to apply to jobs, etc? Or can I just use the alias for certain things, such as the casino?
sc15
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March 8th, 2015 at 3:25:22 PM permalink
Quote: Baccaratfrom79

If you are AP'er you don't need their measly free crap???



The free crap a lot of times isn't measly though.

I've paid team mates' wages with the free crap before. I had one guy work for me all weekend in exchange for bottle service at a nightclub. Another time I got a buddy to hold a seat at a table for half an hour for my team (while a team mate was traveling back from another venue) in exchange for getting my host to walk him and his friends to the front of the line at the club they were going to wait in line for.

For every 100K I win from the casinos I get another 5 - 10K in stuff comped.
Baccaratfrom79
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March 8th, 2015 at 4:09:56 PM permalink
Quote: sc15

The free crap a lot of times isn't measly though.

I've paid team mates' wages with the free crap before. I had one guy work for me all weekend in exchange for bottle service at a nightclub. Another time I got a buddy to hold a seat at a table for half an hour for my team (while a team mate was traveling back from another venue) in exchange for getting my host to walk him and his friends to the front of the line at the club they were going to wait in line for.

For every 100K I win from the casinos I get another 5 - 10K in stuff comped.



SC15, thanks and I know all about comps. The Grand Deluxe Senators Suite we had at CP was over $1,400.00 a night and we were there for 6 nights. We also had about $4,500 of F&B&I and all the $13-14k was fully comp'd. We only pay cash tips.

But I was saying for the average AP'er he can be undercover, hit and run and no one would anything, I have tons of friends that do it as a profession. They try to hit $1k a day, 4 or 5 days and that is it. The highest majority of them pay $60-80 or so a night for a place to crash and buy there own food.
Bac79=Hazardous Material and Chemical person correcting other's mistakes. Non AP'er, I can't count cards, low intelligence. Sprinkles magical dust on the cards. Has a lucky monkey. Baby also has a green one. Sum it up: "It's okay just blame me, it's all my fault"! ( No one believes me--so I chose to stop posting)
arcticfun
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March 8th, 2015 at 4:12:51 PM permalink
Aside from obtaining a legal alias, can anyone suggest other options? Fake IDs sound like a bad idea though many seem to do so...?
1BB
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March 8th, 2015 at 4:15:07 PM permalink
Quote: Avincow

so if i change my name to Ben Dover, that name will appear on my driver's license and that will be the name that I use to apply to jobs, etc? Or can I just use the alias for certain things, such as the casino?



I know Ben Dover. His wife is Eileen.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
sc15
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March 8th, 2015 at 4:15:56 PM permalink
Quote: arcticfun

Aside from obtaining a legal alias, can anyone suggest other options? Fake IDs sound like a bad idea though many seem to do so...?



Why are fake IDs a bad idea?

Tons of APers use them.
Deucekies
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March 8th, 2015 at 4:30:21 PM permalink
Quote: sc15

Why are fake IDs a bad idea?

Tons of APers use them.



What's the repercussion if you get caught with one? Is it an arrestable or fineable offense? Does it just get confiscated?
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
zoobrew
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March 8th, 2015 at 4:43:45 PM permalink
Fake IDs are a bad idea if you use them in the wrong places, i.e. airports, border crossing, interstate financial transactions, tax reporting (so don't use it for W-2G).

My question to the OP, is did you learn your lesson from what caused your original backed off? If the answer is no, then you are just going to spend a lot of time getting new IDs.
sc15
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March 8th, 2015 at 6:04:10 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

What's the repercussion if you get caught with one? Is it an arrestable or fineable offense? Does it just get confiscated?



Don't know.

Never carry a fake ID when you're playing. Use it to set up the player's card and use it to redeem comps, but you don't need to have it with you at the table.
VPPlayer
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March 8th, 2015 at 8:42:16 PM permalink
Yes.....I got backed off because I played too long (3 hrs) with too big of a spread (25x1 up to 300x2). If I do it over, I would limit it to an hour with a smaller spread.
Dieter
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March 8th, 2015 at 10:50:23 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

What's the repercussion if you get caught with one? Is it an arrestable or fineable offense? Does it just get confiscated?



Depends on jurisdiction. In some jurisdictions, simply having a fake ID in your possession is a criminal offense with possible penalties including jail time.

Using it (i.e. showing it to a boothling to get a new club card) may be either fraud or uttering a forgery. Assume that either of these cases is a felony.

I am not a lawyer. Consult your lawyer.
May the cards fall in your favor.
RS
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March 9th, 2015 at 1:55:16 AM permalink
Long story short, I know someone who isn't me got caught with a fake ID. Everything ended up being fine, but, the police wanted to make sure the ID hadn't been used for setting up any accounts (bank, casino, or whatever other kind of accounts you can have). Since no accounts were linked with the card, everything was fine. But, had that ID been used for an account, then it'd be identity theft.

Likewise, I'm not a lawyer.

IMO, I'd say get an alias or a name change. Idk, talk to a lawyer.
sc15
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March 9th, 2015 at 2:06:40 AM permalink
Quote: RS

Long story short, I know someone who isn't me got caught with a fake ID. Everything ended up being fine, but, the police wanted to make sure the ID hadn't been used for setting up any accounts (bank, casino, or whatever other kind of accounts you can have). Since no accounts were linked with the card, everything was fine. But, had that ID been used for an account, then it'd be identity theft.

Likewise, I'm not a lawyer.

IMO, I'd say get an alias or a name change. Idk, talk to a lawyer.



Umm, wouldn't the person have to exist in order for it to be identity theft?

If it's a fabricated identity not based off a real person then how is it identity theft?

Now, if you were to pull someone's real name, address, and birthdate out of the white pages and use that info on a fake ID, you'd be facing some serious charges.
Shadowless
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March 9th, 2015 at 2:13:48 AM permalink
You can legally change your name and obtain a government issued ID with the new name on it.

Check out Ian Andersen's book: Burning the tables in Las Vegas.
It talks about camouflage, longevity, legally changing your name in other states, and more.

He mentions having many legally obtained, government issued IDs from different states for the purpose of privacy.
I'm not sure if he uses it to play at places he has been barred at.

He did mention in his book that he played at places he was once barred at and didn't run into issues.
I'm not sure if this is true, but I don't think this would be possible anymore today; floors are much sharper and it is tough to fly under the radar.

I believe all casinos scan the ID when a player's card is made. So if you do happen to change your name, make sure you take a new picture with it. Not only that, but they can swipe your card to verify if the information matches and if the card is legitimate. Therefore, forget about the fake ID and obtain a legal, government issued one.
RS
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March 9th, 2015 at 3:57:03 AM permalink
Quote: sc15

Umm, wouldn't the person have to exist in order for it to be identity theft?

If it's a fabricated identity not based off a real person then how is it identity theft?

Now, if you were to pull someone's real name, address, and birthdate out of the white pages and use that info on a fake ID, you'd be facing some serious charges.



You're right [I think]. I left out a key part I thought I included. The number on the DL actually matched up to a real person's DL #. [IMO, that part could'a just been made up by the cops, but whatever.] The matching DL # = Identity Theft.

Using a fake ID for an account = fraud.

At least that's how it was explained to someone who isn't me...and his memory is a bit foggy.
Baccaratfrom79
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March 9th, 2015 at 4:00:31 AM permalink
Go ahead and do it what do you have to lose, a trip to jail and a criminal case. O come on, the excitement and the fun of being that extra ordinary AP player who racks up a $100k a night repeatedly, worth it to keep playing, no????
Bac79=Hazardous Material and Chemical person correcting other's mistakes. Non AP'er, I can't count cards, low intelligence. Sprinkles magical dust on the cards. Has a lucky monkey. Baby also has a green one. Sum it up: "It's okay just blame me, it's all my fault"! ( No one believes me--so I chose to stop posting)
arcticfun
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March 10th, 2015 at 9:51:50 AM permalink
Quote: sc15

Don't know.

Never carry a fake ID when you're playing. Use it to set up the player's card and use it to redeem comps, but you don't need to have it with you at the table.



@SC15, do you have experience with this -- and does that mean you use several different player cards at a given joint (or chain of joints, say, MLife)?
AxelWolf
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March 10th, 2015 at 10:50:11 AM permalink
Quote: Shadowless

You can legally change your name and obtain a government issued ID with the new name on it.

Check out Ian Andersen's book: Burning the tables in Las Vegas.
It talks about camouflage, longevity, legally changing your name in other states, and more.

He mentions having many legally obtained, government issued IDs from different states for the purpose of privacy.
I'm not sure if he uses it to play at places he has been barred at.

He did mention in his book that he played at places he was once barred at and didn't run into issues.
I'm not sure if this is true, but I don't think this would be possible anymore today; floors are much sharper and it is tough to fly under the radar.

I believe all casinos scan the ID when a player's card is made. So if you do happen to change your name, make sure you take a new picture with it. Not only that, but they can swipe your card to verify if the information matches and if the card is legitimate. Therefore, forget about the fake ID and obtain a legal, government issued one.

I have known people who have done something Like this ro get a new players card. They get the players card but then a few days latet find their old account merged with the new account. I'm thinking it has to do with the DOB. How they know its not someone else born the same year and day you were I don't know.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
21forme
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March 11th, 2015 at 4:06:25 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

I know Ben Dover. His wife is Eileen.


They are divorced now and Ben married an Asian girl named Irene.
sc15
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March 11th, 2015 at 4:15:29 PM permalink
Quote: arcticfun

@SC15, do you have experience with this -- and does that mean you use several different player cards at a given joint (or chain of joints, say, MLife)?



I've gotten to the point where I pretty much use a new name almost every time I play at certain places, because I have so many players cards I don't remember which ones are clean and which aren't.

Other places I use my real name since I have things like lines of credit which you can't get with a fake ID unless you're committing some serious fraud.

I don't think using a fake ID in nevada to get player's card is illegal. Or if it is, police won't file charges for it. Because if it was, you would hear about APers getting arrested for using fake IDs all the time.
TwoFeathersATL
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March 11th, 2015 at 4:59:36 PM permalink
Quote: sc15

I've gotten to the point where I pretty much use a new name almost every time I play at certain places, because I have so many players cards I don't remember which ones are clean and which aren't.

Other places I use my real name since I have things like lines of credit which you can't get with a fake ID unless you're committing some serious fraud.

I don't think using a fake ID in nevada to get player's card is illegal. Or if it is, police won't file charges for it. Because if it was, you would hear about APers getting arrested for using fake IDs all the time.



I spent a lot, way too much, time today trying to put into place another line of credit with one of the major outfits. They want a lot, I may have to date the lady's younger sister at least twice to even be considered. Have you seen that sister? I may give up Blackjack altogether... Just saying. 2F
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
arcticfun
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March 12th, 2015 at 6:35:01 PM permalink
Quote: sc15


I don't think using a fake ID in nevada to get player's card is illegal. Or if it is, police won't file charges for it. Because if it was, you would hear about APers getting arrested for using fake IDs all the time.



OK so it sounds like a fake ID in the large Vegas casinos can get you a new player's card with a reasonable success rate -- that's how you get the cards? Generally, when getting a new player card, I give my ID to the PB and they do it for me. Would you recommend this method or going to the player card desk?
sc15
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March 12th, 2015 at 6:37:27 PM permalink
Quote: arcticfun

OK so it sounds like a fake ID in the large Vegas casinos can get you a new player's card with a reasonable success rate -- that's how you get the cards? Generally, when getting a new player card, I give my ID to the PB and they do it for me. Would you recommend this method or going to the player card desk?



definitely go to the player card desk if you're using a bogus ID.
AbeFrohman
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March 16th, 2015 at 7:27:11 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

You can see about getting an alias. The government hands those out.



Where does the government hand those out?
AbeFrohman
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March 16th, 2015 at 7:41:54 PM permalink
Quote: sc15

definitely go to the player card desk if you're using a bogus ID.



In some places they have ID scanners at the players club but not in the pits.
darkoz
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March 16th, 2015 at 8:11:50 PM permalink
Quote: AbeFrohman

In some places they have ID scanners at the players club but not in the pits.



Yeah, I'm not sure if an alias will work with ID scanners.

Remember you are still known by the government as your original identity. You are just using a legal alias like a writer might use a pen name.

The scan of barcode from alias ID might pull up your natural name.

I assume if Dr. Seuss went to the casino, his real name of Theodore Geisel might easily come up when scanning his card.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
sc15
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March 16th, 2015 at 9:00:46 PM permalink
Quote: AbeFrohman

In some places they have ID scanners at the players club but not in the pits.



Eh, I never thought of it this way since my IDs scan. Not all of them do when I get them, but I bought one of those scanners the bar bouncers use and toss any ID that doesn't scan properly.

You can always tell the players club desk you don't want your ID scanned. If questioned, it's because of identity theft. It's YOUR ID, so they have no right to scan it if you say they can't. (They have the right to refuse you a player's card, but most places won't. The scanner actually puts your info into the computer automatically so it's really to save time on their end).
bigplayer
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March 18th, 2015 at 6:23:35 AM permalink
If you have a passport and a common name you can easily get another players card by giving a new address (particularly an address from a town other than the one you live in). If you have a really uncommon name it's a bit harder because your DOB will be the same so you'd need to make sure that you're new persona is living way on the other side of the country. Even a normal name will likely have several people with the same DOB and same name but who will be completely different people. Imagine how many John Smith's born on July 20th are in the Total Rewards system. I'd think there would be dozens of them.

Remember a passport has a different ID number from a Drivers License and doesn't have a home address on it. If you go the fake ID route be sure the risk/reward is worth it. If you aren't playing for chunky black action you'd probably just be better off playing unrated.
bigplayer
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March 18th, 2015 at 6:32:36 AM permalink
Quote: sc15



I don't think using a fake ID in nevada to get player's card is illegal. Or if it is, police won't file charges for it. Because if it was, you would hear about APers getting arrested for using fake IDs all the time.



They can charge you with a crime in NV for using a fake NV ID in NV. If you use a fake other state ID in NV it's not a crime unless you are committing fraud. Beware though in other states, Florida for example, just possessing a fake government issued ID from any state is a felony. Good to know the laws state by state before using these items (or taking extra care not to bring them with you to the casino after you get a players card). Getting a players card is not fraud because a players card has zero monetary value until you play on it therefore it's the play, not the card that give it value. I know that some enterprising DA's have tried to charge some players with fraud but I don't know of any instances anywhere where those charges have stuck in a real court. Although I'd suggest you're probably committing fraud by using a bunch of fake ID's to do new player loss rebates, but it isn't fraud to bring busloads of street bums in to do the rebates with you controlling the action and taking most of the money and all of the risk. I do know of a particularly notorious player for a major Boston Team that was forced to payback all comps that he'd ever redeemed under his alias to a tribal casino in the Midwest. The casino simply went to his room and stole his money from his briefcase and then when he sued to get it back deducted the lifetime amount of his comps and told him tough shit they're making their own laws. Still with legal fees and such being pretty expensive in criminal situations it's a good idea to be aware of the risk/reward balance before you begin using these tools.
Baccaratfrom79
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March 18th, 2015 at 7:05:05 AM permalink
Quote: bigplayer

it's a good idea to be aware of the risk/reward



I wont even touch on this subject again. I feel it is ludicrous to instruct or lend credence for this subject. However, back to the core of business and even personal decisions, 'risk versus reward'. Core basic that should be included in many day to day decision.

Take a minute to reflect on that when you are trying to think if something is worth doing. "What is my risk---What is my reward".
Bac79=Hazardous Material and Chemical person correcting other's mistakes. Non AP'er, I can't count cards, low intelligence. Sprinkles magical dust on the cards. Has a lucky monkey. Baby also has a green one. Sum it up: "It's okay just blame me, it's all my fault"! ( No one believes me--so I chose to stop posting)
1BB
1BB
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April 24th, 2015 at 10:36:08 AM permalink
I guess enough time has passed for me to tell my latest back off story. I was playing in the high limit pit in a certain casino. It was off hours and I was playing heads up at a $25 minimum table. Six deck shoe with very good rules and penetration.

I won 14 hands in a row to finish the shoe. That included 2 blackjacks and a couple of double downs. I don't keep track of things like wins or losses in a row but the dealer was kind enough to do it for me. The count stayed right around even so every bet was a flat $25 much to the chagrin of the dealer who kept encouraging me to take advantage of the "hot" shoe. This dealer also made sure that I knew my success was due to his extraordinary dealing skills.

During the shuffle, the pit boss came over to quietly talk to the dealer after which he flat bet me to one hand at table minimum. That was the first shoe I had played and, remember, I had never raised my bet for the entire shoe. One of the funniest and dumbest things I ever saw.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
RogerKint
RogerKint
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April 24th, 2015 at 12:07:07 PM permalink
Word is that pit boss switched careers to WOV secret admin.
100% risk of ruin
Venthus
Venthus
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April 24th, 2015 at 12:34:37 PM permalink
I can't help but find it kind of amusing that some people are trying to get new accounts with their ID and I can't seem to get my old accounts with my ID. It's ranged from "How did you enter my middle name as my first name?" to "I have to be in the system, I'm staying here on an offer!"

Quote: bigplayer

Imagine how many John Smith's born on July 20th are in the Total Rewards system.



...Halloween conception? Not an auspicious date I'd've come up with...
1BB
1BB
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April 24th, 2015 at 12:37:15 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

Word is that pit boss switched careers to WOV secret admin.



At least now we know he'll be fair. :-)
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
GWAE
GWAE
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April 24th, 2015 at 12:40:30 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

At least now we know he'll be fair. :-)



damn it, don't make me laugh at work. I gonna get caught.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
RS
RS
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April 24th, 2015 at 2:02:09 PM permalink
What about a fake ID from somewhere that doesn't exist? Like a made up country?
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