Fastest barring I experienced...
In any event, this shoe was particularly streaky. Lots of low cards, followed by lots of high cards, followed by lots of low cards, then high again. Of course, my bets followed. I lost most small bets, won most big bets. I think it was accentuated by one particularly well-placed max bet that resulted in a two-handed blackjack vs dealer 20 -- I had ramped to 2x $500 from 2x $200 right then. I've never experienced twin blackjacks at large bets -- an exhilarating first for me. It was my biggest bet of the day, but not in my history at that joint. I started to see the heat build. Although I knew the floorman and he and I had had plenty of friendly conversations during prior sessions, he seemed stiff; another guy I didn't know joined the pit and the two of them talked without really looking in my direction much. I've been in this situation loads of times, suspecting heat but pit interactions not really amounting to anything.
In any case, I wanted to end my session after that shoe. There were probably 5 minutes left. But a third guy entered the pit in 3, marched toward me, and before I had a chance to get up, pushed back my bet. "We are no longer accepting your action."
"Um ... may I ask why? I lost 6k last time I was here, can I not try to win it back?" (that was all true)
"It's a management decision. Go with security and cash your chips."
"so no more blackjack?"
"actually, no more [casino name]. We are permanently ejecting you. You will be receiving a letter in the mail. If you choose to return, you will be arrested for trespassing."
"Can I cash my chips?"
"Yes, the security guards behind you will take you to the cage." (other than about 5 spectators, there were 3 big badged guys waiting there that I was unaware of!!)
OK so the shoe was particularly difficult to keep my cover play going, simply due to the streakiness of low and then high cards. But that said, after being a known player that long, 20 minutes is all it took?? Also, a straight trespass? they were much nicer to me at Mohegan "you can play any other game"
Conclusions:
- no matter how well you know the floor personnel or how well they know you, even after many hours, your play is still scrutinized. Cover behavior (both demeanor and betting schedule) needs to be there regardless of your history.
- Double blackjack at two hands with near-max bet ..... take it and leave, even if the count is still high.
- spend at least a few second between each and EVERY hand to check your surroundings. I could have avoided that interaction if I had seen security approach.
like you're going there again. They were
waiting for you, it was only a matter of
time.
Quote: arcticfunI could have avoided that interaction if I had seen security approach.
You think? I'm pretty sure that the interaction was guaranteed by the time they'd called security. It's not like the 3 guards would have let you walk away - they weren't called there to decide against barring you.
Quote: EvenBobWhy won't you name the casino, it's not
like you're going there again. They were
waiting for you, it was only a matter of
time.
That's actually one of the questions I had: was there a flag on me already from previous sessions, or did all the heat and the decision to bar come from those 20 minutes? Or maybe there is a "suspicion" that I may be a counter but they are not 100% convinced and they just keep an eye out?
As for revealing the casino name, I was 50/50 and ended up deciding against it since I may still venture to neighboring joints - PM if you really want.
Quote: arcticfunAfter being a regular-ish patron at a particular casino since November, my most recent session got me "permanently ejected" in less than half an hour of play. I didn't really play any differently than in prior sessions, which had seen a range of wins and losses >5k. Mostly wins, though =P
In any event, this shoe was particularly streaky. Lots of low cards, followed by lots of high cards, followed by lots of low cards, then high again. Of course, my bets followed. I lost most small bets, won most big bets. I think it was accentuated by one particularly well-placed max bet that resulted in a two-handed blackjack vs dealer 20 -- I had ramped to 2x $500 from 2x $200 right then. I've never experienced twin blackjacks at large bets -- an exhilarating first for me. It was my biggest bet of the day, but not in my history at that joint. I started to see the heat build. Although I knew the floorman and he and I had had plenty of friendly conversations during prior sessions, he seemed stiff; another guy I didn't know joined the pit and the two of them talked without really looking in my direction much. I've been in this situation loads of times, suspecting heat but pit interactions not really amounting to anything.
In any case, I wanted to end my session after that shoe. There were probably 5 minutes left. But a third guy entered the pit in 3, marched toward me, and before I had a chance to get up, pushed back my bet. "We are no longer accepting your action."
"Um ... may I ask why? I lost 6k last time I was here, can I not try to win it back?" (that was all true)
"It's a management decision. Go with security and cash your chips."
"so no more blackjack?"
"actually, no more [casino name]. We are permanently ejecting you. You will be receiving a letter in the mail. If you choose to return, you will be arrested for trespassing."
"Can I cash my chips?"
"Yes, the security guards behind you will take you to the cage." (other than about 5 spectators, there were 3 big badged guys waiting there that I was unaware of!!)
OK so the shoe was particularly difficult to keep my cover play going, simply due to the streakiness of low and then high cards. But that said, after being a known player that long, 20 minutes is all it took?? Also, a straight trespass? they were much nicer to me at Mohegan "you can play any other game"
Conclusions:
- no matter how well you know the floor personnel or how well they know you, even after many hours, your play is still scrutinized. Cover behavior (both demeanor and betting schedule) needs to be there regardless of your history.
- Double blackjack at two hands with near-max bet ..... take it and leave, even if the count is still high.
- spend at least a few second between each and EVERY hand to check your surroundings. I could have avoided that interaction if I had seen security approach.
You went from 2 x 200 to 2 x 500 in a high count. Jumping your bets is a no-no. But you very well might have been popped anyway. My guess is that they trespassed you because they don't want you to return and try to play unrated. If your lowest bet was $25 on one hand and your highest bet was 2 x $500 that's not going to fly anywhere (for long).
You should have been more attuned to the mood in the pit.
This happened to me and The Green Chip Baron in Vegas when we were there with you - almost an instant barring at one of the MGM properties after the Baron himself was barred at a separate property.
Quote: EvenBobWhy won't you name the casino,
Well, I wouldn't name the casino if it was me, lest one of those surveillance networks find it easier to correlate my stated info with my online persona.
Quote: arcticfun
In any case, I wanted to end my session after that shoe. There were probably 5 minutes left. But a third guy entered the pit in 3, marched toward me, and before I had a chance to get up, pushed back my bet. "We are no longer accepting your action."
"Ok."
Take all chips, leave casino immediately.
Now you know.
PS: You did almost everything you're not supposed to do when getting BO'd.
Quote: arcticfunsince I may still venture to neighboring joints
There's a way better chance than 50/50 that
they know about your barring and have your
name and pic already. Most casinos share
info now on barred counters. I know for a
fact they do in my area.
Quote: RSIndian casino? Or state? Not sure what a letter is going to do.
PS: You did almost everything you're not supposed to do when getting BO'd.
Please share more --- just pack and leave? Cash chips and leave? The security guy would have accompanied me to the cage either way. Do you think the right thing was to say nothing and leave? I still don't know how to properly approach back-offs (I started a thread about it a while back). What other outcome could I have expected if I had said nothing, cashed out, and left?
However, many more people around here have more experience than me. But that's my 2-cents.
And I wouldn't name the casino either.
Don't ask questions or make a deal out of it. (Maybe a quick "wait what huh??" and when they give some poor excuse don't respond.)
Don't cash out your chips.
Don't ask about other games.
Don't ask if you'll be able to come back later.
Don't sign or acknowledge anything they say.
And especially don't walk into a backroom.
Just grab your chips, get up, and walk to the nearest exit. Some people say don't go to your car, others say it doesn't matter....I wouldn't do it, but you can do whatever you want.
Quote: arcticfunPlease share more --- just pack and leave? Cash chips and leave? The security guy would have accompanied me to the cage either way. Do you think the right thing was to say nothing and leave? I still don't know how to properly approach back-offs (I started a thread about it a while back). What other outcome could I have expected if I had said nothing, cashed out, and left?
You handled the backoff just fine. To just ignore them and pick up your chips and leave could lead to further complications. There's a good chance you were flagged and they were going to take action on your visit anyway. Be polite, let them read you the riot act, cash out and leave. Of course, you could say you weren't going to cash out and send in a friend at a late date to cash your chips, but I don't think that acomplishes anything. It just makes you stand out like you're wearing a neon jumpsuit. They could easily already have your photo on file anyway from a prior cage visit or when you went through a choke point.
Quote: arcticfunDon't worry, this didn't happen yesterday. As for not cashing ... are you saying I should plan to come back to cash them another time, risking trespass??????
You or a friend cash it later, yeah.
Quote: GreasyJohnTo just ignore them and pick up your chips and leave could lead to further complications
Like?
Anyways, the best course of action when "the jig's up" is to leave a quietly and promptly as possible, without drawing attention to yourself by running/etc. Do not cash your chips, etc. Just pocket them and leave. You can cash them another day, or what I would do... Have someone else cash them another day for you. No matter what you're not playing there for a while, if ever again in the high limit because as you stated the PB's know you.
There's a lot of reasons why you could have been backed off in 20 min, but I would doubt it had to do with just that 20 min of play. It doesn't matter if you've lost >$5k both ways... What matters is their opinion of you. If over your last X trips you've raised their suspicion levels, then it doesn't matter if you drop $20k. If they think you're a counter, then you're labeled a counter and you will be barred. They could have shared info from the other (nearby?) casino you were backed off from. They could have been suspicious of you for a while. If the other casino could be considered a 'neighboring' casino to this one, you definitely should not have been playing rated after being backed off at the other one. At this point it sounds like you're burned for a while in that area. Not that you couldn't play unrated at all ever again, but especially if you're well known in the high limit pits, you can't play in those and you'll have to give it time before playing at all.
Quote: RSYou or a friend cash it later, yeah.
Quote: RomesAnyways, the best course of action when "the jig's up" is to leave a quietly and promptly as possible, without drawing attention to yourself by running/etc. Do not cash your chips, etc. Just pocket them and leave. You can cash them another day, or what I would do... Have someone else cash them another day for you. No matter what you're not playing there for a while, if ever again in the high limit because as you stated the PB's know you.
I'm puzzled by this. You guys are suggesting that he can go back at a later date to cash in his chips. He's already said that, pending receipt of that letter, he'll be arrested for even setting foot in there. Seems to me that stopped being an option. Perhaps you guys can explain better?
Say the letter does come certified, and you do have to sign for it. At that point, you're out of luck on that front, yes?
Quote: DeucekiesI'm puzzled by this. You guys are suggesting that he can go back at a later date to cash in his chips. He's already said that, pending receipt of that letter, he'll be arrested for even setting foot in there. Seems to me that stopped being an option. Perhaps you guys can explain better?
Say the letter does come certified, and you do have to sign for it. At that point, you're out of luck on that front, yes?
Is he actually trespassed? I think not, or else they would have read him the trespass act (or w/e it's called) and have him sign something. Them saying, "You can't come back" means nothing. And you don't want to be in a situation where they say that to you.
You're much better off being in a situation where all they said was to leave. If you come back and they try to arrest you -- you've done nothing wrong and they have done everything wrong. But if they've actually told you "If you come back you'll be arrested", although that doesn't actually mean you've been trespassed.....if you come back and they try to arrest you, you have much less leverage. Which is why you want to ignore anything and everything they say. Don't confirm anything with them.
As far as I know, each of my back-offs have just been "no more blackjack [today]" kind of things. Surely, I know and they know what they meant -- they don't want to see my face again, ever. I don't need to ask or confirm anything. But, if I walk back into one of those stores and they try to arrest me, I have done nothing wrong. No one ever told me I can't come back -- someone has only ever asked me to leave....no one said I can't return.
Don't sign for the letter, easy. You know it's coming.
I know that, several places I've played (not the Strip, but most others), if you walk up with purple chips or a lot of black (let alone yellows), the cage has oftentimes made a call or otherwise checked to see that you have those chips legitimately. So, with the OP having several thousand in chips, probably black with at least a couple purples from the 2 hand BJ's, how does he reliably "return later" and get those chips cashed, either himself or a friend?
Does he tell some story about having to leave quickly the other night? Have to show ID/players' card to get paid and have them check their records and see your backoff/trespass? Seems iffy at best if he doesn't cash out right then, but maybe I'm missing the bigger picture. Is he hoping to feed them back into the game playing unrated some weeks or months down the road, and in the mean time the money's locked up in chips he can't cash.
Thanks, guys.
By the way, I've been backed off 5 times. And it's always been polite. Back off #4 happened within about 15 minutes of the start of my session at a casino I had played at some 30 times, and where I had a losing history and was playing with a card. Once they had had enough, it would have been easy to just quietly let me cash out, take my photo at the cage and flag me for the next time I bought in. Then the tap on the next trip. This is what I think happened.
Not sure if I agree with this. As long as they told him not to come back I believe it's all they have to do.Quote: RomesYou were obviously playing rated since they said they'd mail you a letter. Unless it comes certified, you can just claim you didn't get it and play unrated. .
Someone might argue they have to read you an official trespassing but i'm not convinced. If they made it clear he can't return that's enough.
Either way someone will lie and say they did.
Quote: beachbumbabsI don't know much about this, mostly I've followed the discussions on backoffs on this forum. However,
I know that, several places I've played (not the Strip, but most others), if you walk up with purple chips or a lot of black (let alone yellows), the cage has oftentimes made a call or otherwise checked to see that you have those chips legitimately. So, with the OP having several thousand in chips, probably black with at least a couple purples from the 2 hand BJ's, how does he reliably "return later" and get those chips cashed, either himself or a friend?
Does he tell some story about having to leave quickly the other night? Have to show ID/players' card to get paid and have them check their records and see your backoff/trespass? Seems iffy at best if he doesn't cash out right then, but maybe I'm missing the bigger picture. Is he hoping to feed them back into the game playing unrated some weeks or months down the road, and in the mean time the money's locked up in chips he can't cash.
Thanks, guys.
Quick way around that... Take your $1k chips to a table game... Get $500 in black, $500 in green. Play 3 hands, leave, go cash out your black/green chips.
Quote: AxelWolfNot sure if I agree with this. As long as they told him not to come back I believe it's all they have to do.
Someone might argue they have to read you an official trespassing but i'm not convinced. If they made it clear he can't return that's enough.
Either way someone will lie and say they did.
No.. what they have to be able to do is PROVE they asked you to never come back. Otherwise they'd just have counters arrested every day claiming "we trespassed them before!" They have to be able to PROVE they've trespassed you. If they have zero documentation of that, you can't be arrested for it.
Quote: GreasyjohnQuote: arcticfunAfter being a regular-ish patron at a particular casino since November, my most recent session got me "permanently ejected" in less than half an hour of play. I didn't really play any differently than in prior sessions, which had seen a range of wins and losses >5k. Mostly wins, though =P
In any event, this shoe was particularly streaky. Lots of low cards, followed by lots of high cards, followed by lots of low cards, then high again. Of course, my bets followed. I lost most small bets, won most big bets. I think it was accentuated by one particularly well-placed max bet that resulted in a two-handed blackjack vs dealer 20 -- I had ramped to 2x $500 from 2x $200 right then. I've never experienced twin blackjacks at large bets -- an exhilarating first for me. It was my biggest bet of the day, but not in my history at that joint. I started to see the heat build. Although I knew the floorman and he and I had had plenty of friendly conversations during prior sessions, he seemed stiff; another guy I didn't know joined the pit and the two of them talked without really looking in my direction much. I've been in this situation loads of times, suspecting heat but pit interactions not really amounting to anything.
In any case, I wanted to end my session after that shoe. There were probably 5 minutes left. But a third guy entered the pit in 3, marched toward me, and before I had a chance to get up, pushed back my bet. "We are no longer accepting your action."
"Um ... may I ask why? I lost 6k last time I was here, can I not try to win it back?" (that was all true)
"It's a management decision. Go with security and cash your chips."
"so no more blackjack?"
"actually, no more [casino name]. We are permanently ejecting you. You will be receiving a letter in the mail. If you choose to return, you will be arrested for trespassing."
"Can I cash my chips?"
"Yes, the security guards behind you will take you to the cage." (other than about 5 spectators, there were 3 big badged guys waiting there that I was unaware of!!)
OK so the shoe was particularly difficult to keep my cover play going, simply due to the streakiness of low and then high cards. But that said, after being a known player that long, 20 minutes is all it took?? Also, a straight trespass? they were much nicer to me at Mohegan "you can play any other game"
Conclusions:
- no matter how well you know the floor personnel or how well they know you, even after many hours, your play is still scrutinized. Cover behavior (both demeanor and betting schedule) needs to be there regardless of your history.
- Double blackjack at two hands with near-max bet ..... take it and leave, even if the count is still high.
- spend at least a few second between each and EVERY hand to check your surroundings. I could have avoided that interaction if I had seen security approach.
You went from 2 x 200 to 2 x 500 in a high count. Jumping your bets is a no-no. But you very well might have been popped anyway. My guess is that they trespassed you because they don't want you to return and try to play unrated. If your lowest bet was $25 on one hand and your highest bet was 2 x $500 that's not going to fly anywhere (for long).
You should have been more attuned to the mood in the pit.
This is exactly what I was thinking. I understand you were trying to get the money out there in a +EV situation. But when you jump your bet that much in a high count it's just so obvious. Sorry you got banned. It's a badge of honor for every card counter.
Quote: vendman1Quote: GreasyjohnQuote: arcticfunAfter being a regular-ish patron at a particular casino since November, my most recent session got me "permanently ejected" in less than half an hour of play. I didn't really play any differently than in prior sessions, which had seen a range of wins and losses >5k. Mostly wins, though =P
In any event, this shoe was particularly streaky. Lots of low cards, followed by lots of high cards, followed by lots of low cards, then high again. Of course, my bets followed. I lost most small bets, won most big bets. I think it was accentuated by one particularly well-placed max bet that resulted in a two-handed blackjack vs dealer 20 -- I had ramped to 2x $500 from 2x $200 right then. I've never experienced twin blackjacks at large bets -- an exhilarating first for me. It was my biggest bet of the day, but not in my history at that joint. I started to see the heat build. Although I knew the floorman and he and I had had plenty of friendly conversations during prior sessions, he seemed stiff; another guy I didn't know joined the pit and the two of them talked without really looking in my direction much. I've been in this situation loads of times, suspecting heat but pit interactions not really amounting to anything.
In any case, I wanted to end my session after that shoe. There were probably 5 minutes left. But a third guy entered the pit in 3, marched toward me, and before I had a chance to get up, pushed back my bet. "We are no longer accepting your action."
"Um ... may I ask why? I lost 6k last time I was here, can I not try to win it back?" (that was all true)
"It's a management decision. Go with security and cash your chips."
"so no more blackjack?"
"actually, no more [casino name]. We are permanently ejecting you. You will be receiving a letter in the mail. If you choose to return, you will be arrested for trespassing."
"Can I cash my chips?"
"Yes, the security guards behind you will take you to the cage." (other than about 5 spectators, there were 3 big badged guys waiting there that I was unaware of!!)
OK so the shoe was particularly difficult to keep my cover play going, simply due to the streakiness of low and then high cards. But that said, after being a known player that long, 20 minutes is all it took?? Also, a straight trespass? they were much nicer to me at Mohegan "you can play any other game"
Conclusions:
- no matter how well you know the floor personnel or how well they know you, even after many hours, your play is still scrutinized. Cover behavior (both demeanor and betting schedule) needs to be there regardless of your history.
- Double blackjack at two hands with near-max bet ..... take it and leave, even if the count is still high.
- spend at least a few second between each and EVERY hand to check your surroundings. I could have avoided that interaction if I had seen security approach.
You went from 2 x 200 to 2 x 500 in a high count. Jumping your bets is a no-no. But you very well might have been popped anyway. My guess is that they trespassed you because they don't want you to return and try to play unrated. If your lowest bet was $25 on one hand and your highest bet was 2 x $500 that's not going to fly anywhere (for long).
You should have been more attuned to the mood in the pit.
This is exactly what I was thinking. I understand you were trying to get the money out there in a +EV situation. But when you jump your bet that much in a high count it's just so obvious. Sorry you got banned. It's a badge of honor for every card counter.
I've never looked at being banned of backed off as a badge of honor. It is easy to do. It's like a jewelry thief saying he got arrested for robbing a jewelry store. Isn't the idea not to get arrested? If you flaunt your card counting talent, have too big a spread, don't appreciate what the store will tolerate, you'll get tapped. The goal is not to be told to not come back and get the money, the goal is to come back and get the money.
Quote: RomesQuick way around that... Take your $1k chips to a table game... Get $500 in black, $500 in green. Play 3 hands, leave, go cash out your black/green chips.
So you think someone is going to walk up to the pit and ask to break $1000, and the dealer isn't going to ask the pit to check change... And if they do check change you don't think the pit is going to say hmmm where did this guy with $1,000 in purples come from??? Highly unlikely.
Quote: BeardgoatSo you think someone is going to walk up to the pit and ask to break $1000, and the dealer isn't going to ask the pit to check change... And if they do check change you don't think the pit is going to say hmmm where did this guy with $1,000 in purples come from??? Highly unlikely.
"I'm feeling lucky! Give me $500 in blacks and $500 in greens please!"
"Check change $1000" ... "Go ahead" (Maybe you get a glance from the pit)
"Do you have a players card"
"No I'm only in town for a weekend"
Decision tree:
Did you lose your first three hands? --> "This sucks I'm going to another table!"
Did you win your first three hands? --> "Well I guess that covers my dinner tonight! Bye!"
Can't seem to streak either way? --> "O it looks like my girlfriend is done shopping. Bye!"
"Sir can you color in please"
"I rather just keep these chips"
Proceed to walk away before pit boss even notices.
Pit bosses don't really care about $1000 buy ins/outs even at $25 tables anyway. I guess if you're going to pull this stunt with $5k that's questionable.
You felt heat and decided to leave. If they stop you and read you the trespass, then you request to cash in your chips, and if you have more at home, you ask how do I exchange chips not in my possession at this time?
If you managed to get out without getting read the act, then whenever you go back, take your chips with you. If they nail you as soon as you walk in, tell them you are here to cash in your chips. Since they had not read you the trespass before, they cannot have you arrested at this point.
Quote: RaleighCrapsWhy go through all this hassle?
You felt heat and decided to leave. If they stop you and read you the trespass, then you request to cash in your chips, and if you have more at home, you ask how do I exchange chips not in my possession at this time?
If you managed to get out without getting read the act, then whenever you go back, take your chips with you. If they nail you as soon as you walk in, tell them you are here to cash in your chips. Since they had not read you the trespass before, they cannot have you arrested at this point.
This is the info I was asking about. Good rule of thumb/decision point, RC. Thanks.
Quote: BeardgoatSo you think someone is going to walk up to the pit and ask to break $1000, and the dealer isn't going to ask the pit to check change... And if they do check change you don't think the pit is going to say hmmm where did this guy with $1,000 in purples come from??? Highly unlikely.
lol as Donut already responded... it's really not difficult. Say I'm not even a counter or anything and just a gambler staying in a neighboring hotel. I know I'm coming back to gamble more tomorrow, so I take a yellow chip home. I go back the next day and want to play (no heat, no issues, no anything). So you're saying when I cash in the $1k chip, they're not going to let me cash it in or play because they don't know where I got it from???
again, lol
Quote: beachbumbabsThis is the info I was asking about. Good rule of thumb/decision point, RC. Thanks.
This doesn't account for the real issue... Say you felt heat and left, not getting read anything. Okay, well you don't want to walk in and get nailed. Quite often heat will die down after a period of time. Thus, you want to cash your chips, but you don't personally want to go in while you're still "hot." Thus, you need someone else to go cash your chips for you. If I was a pro, I would certainly NOT risk burning that casino as a whole over cashing some chips... "If they nail you..." and I don't think it's too crazy to realize some people might 'need' to cash the chips to pay rent or something.
Yes... and if they send security to your table and escort you out, they will save the video or pictures. Security guards also write statements and embellish their reports to say they trespassed you. That's enough for the police to arrest you. They don't need your name usually a picture and a log report is sufficient. You might not be convicted however they can easily arrest you.Quote: RomesQuick way around that... Take your $1k chips to a table game... Get $500 in black, $500 in green. Play 3 hands, leave, go cash out your black/green chips.
No.. what they have to be able to do is PROVE they asked you to never come back. Otherwise they'd just have counters arrested every day claiming "we trespassed them before!" They have to be able to PROVE they've trespassed you. If they have zero documentation of that, you can't be arrested for it.
Even just a few security guards lying and claiming they trespassed you has gotten people arrested. So unless you yourself record the incident.
90% of the time the police believe the casino.
If you're ambitious and don't mind going to jail for the weekend and then defending yourself and possibly getting an attorney then go for it.
Quote: AxelWolfYes... and if they send security to your table and escort you out, they will save the video or pictures. Security guards also write statements and embellish their reports to say they trespassed you. That's enough for the police to arrest you. They don't need your name usually a picture and a log report is sufficient. You might not be convicted however they can easily arrest you.
Even just a few security guards lying and claiming they trespassed you has gotten people arrested. So unless you yourself record the incident.
90% of the time the police believe the casino.
If you're ambitious and don't mind going to jail for the weekend and then defending yourself and possibly getting an attorney then go for it.
While I agree 90% of the time police blindly agree with the casino, I disagree that they don't need more evidence for an arrest rather than the cops simply escorting you off the property. They need a lot more than that... again, if this were the case, why on earth wouldn't they have a security officer come up and talk to you for 5 seconds, just saying "Hi, how's your day?" They take a picture of that and "claim" that's them trespassing you... It's your word against the security officers word at that point... You claim he said you smell nice, he claims he trespassed you. Believable or not, there's no proof a crime was committed either way.
So you're saying from that you can be arrested for trespassing? Again, they have to PROVE you were trespassed. If they have it on audio, that's proof. If they have a certified letter, that's proof. If they get you to 'comply' by taking pictures, giving them your ID, signing paperwork, then that's also proof.
Are you confusing what proof they should have VS what can actually happen? They should or shouldn't do lots of stuff, that's besides the point.Quote: RomesWhile I agree 90% of the time police blindly agree with the casino, I disagree that they don't need more evidence for an arrest rather than the cops simply escorting you off the property. They need a lot more than that... again, if this were the case, why on earth wouldn't they have a security officer come up and talk to you for 5 seconds, just saying "Hi, how's your day?" They take a picture of that and "claim" that's them trespassing you... It's your word against the security officers word at that point... You claim he said you smell nice, he claims he trespassed you. Believable or not, there's no proof a crime was committed either way.
So you're saying from that you can be arrested for trespassing? Again, they have to PROVE you were trespassed. If they have it on audio, that's proof. If they have a certified letter, that's proof. If they get you to 'comply' by taking pictures, giving them your ID, signing paperwork, then that's also proof.
If they have Video/or a picture and simply document a report saying they trespassed you, even if they didn't actually read you a trespass. Now if you return and they call the police and simply show them the report and video/pictures and they demand you get arrested, the police can arrest you, it's a judgment call at that point.
It doesn't have to be absolute proof just something reasonable that shows its likely they 86ed you.
You may win your case in court easily or not even be charged, but that's a different discussion.
I'm not guessing I know for a fact it has happened more than once.
Usually a casino doesn't want to go that far, they just want you out and for you to stay out.
This is done all the time. You have friends or teamates do it for you. Breaking a chip at the table and cashing out at the cage are completely different. If this incident happened at an out of the way place I probably would just cash out.If it's place that's on your normal schedule i would cash out later.Quote: BeardgoatSo you think someone is going to walk up to the pit and ask to break $1000, and the dealer isn't going to ask the pit to check change... And if they do check change you don't think the pit is going to say hmmm where did this guy with $1,000 in purples come from??? Highly unlikely.
Not really true in my experience.Quote: sabreA casino that's going to verify your play to cash a $N chip at the cage is 99.99% going to do the same type of verification when you stroll up to a table with that same chip. The value of N which triggers that check varies from casino to casino.
Quote: Romesthey have to PROVE you were trespassed
to get the charges to stick. To arrest you and put you in jail, maybe not.
Quote: HunterhillThis is done all the time. You have friends or teamates do it for you. Breaking a chip at the table and cashing out at the cage are completely different. If this incident happened at an out of the way place I probably would just cash out.If it's place that's on your normal schedule i would cash out later.
Well this maybe true at higher end places like bellagio, Wynn, Venetian... I myself have never been in a situation like this. However if a player comes to a table with purple and yellow chips, and they have no players card or other history with the casino... Seems like it would be a big red flag
A little side track, but even cities now have "black sites".
Chicago 'black site': former US justice officials call for Homan Square inquiry
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/the-disappeared-chicago-police-detain-americans-at-abuse-laden-black-site/ar-BBhVkfd
Quote: TwoFeathersATLAny of you ever hear of anyone being banned just for being a winner?
There are stories of getting banned, but I would have to believe they are cases of being mistaken for a card counter. No casino would ban you if they knew for sure you were playing at negative expectation. The way you play, a mistake could be made IMO. I would say it is unlikely.
Quote: TwoFeathersATLAny of you ever hear of anyone being banned just for being a winner? I play progressive and regressive, sometimes I win nicely, sometimes I lose some. I don't count cards. Closest Casino to me I have won on each of the 4 times I have visited, all in 2014, a little over 10k total, and they had me fill out tax paperwork when I cashed in my chips last time. Am I in danger of getting banned just for being a winner? Playing at a $10 table results in me betting the $1,000 limit many times during a multiple hour session. Am I just asking for trouble? Just wondered what you guys thought. THX
What type of paperwork?
Quote: odiousgambitThere are stories of getting banned, but I would have to believe they are cases of being mistaken for a card counter. No casino would ban you if they knew for sure you were playing at negative expectation. The way you play, a mistake could be made IMO. I would say it is unlikely.
The way I play results in that table max bet being just as likely during the first deal in a new shoe as the last deal of that shoe, or any other deal in that shoe. Would be very hard to mistake me for a card counter. It's just a very identifiable progressive strategy. Did notice some big guys in suits come watch me closely one night ( different casino ) but nothing came of it. Should I run into trouble at some point in the future I'll post it here. THX again.
Looked like what was going to result in me being mailed the casino equivalent of a IRS 1099. I asked why the paperwork, didn't get an answer, just told you have to fill this out. Included name/address social security etc. i was playing rated so I would have thought they already had all that info? I was cashing in $4500 on a $2000 buy in, I stated as such when they went and got a supervisor who brought the paper. I did not get a copy, though I didn't ask for one, wish I had asked. The previous night I had cashed in $6700 on a $2000 buy in and no one gave it a second glance. I was aware that my total wins at this casino had just passed $10,000 for the year and assumed that was the trigger. My win/loss statement t the end of the year showed a couple thousand more than that so they are counting my tips , I like to tip well, or they missed a buy in or two during one of my first two visits. I had played about 20 hours combined during those last two nights, all at the same table each night. With lots of big bets( relatively big bets, it's just a $10 min/$1000 max table) I do run a lot of money across the table in a session relative to the other players so I do attract a lot of attention.
Quote: TwoFeathersATLWhat type of paperwork you ask?
Looked like what was going to result in me being mailed the casino equivalent of a IRS 1099. I asked why the paperwork, didn't get an answer, just told you have to fill this out. Included name/address social security etc. i was playing rated so I would have thought they already had all that info? I was cashing in $4500 on a $2000 buy in, I stated as such when they went and got a supervisor who brought the paper. I did not get a copy, though I didn't ask for one, wish I had asked. The previous night I had cashed in $6700 on a $2000 buy in and no one gave it a second glance. I was aware that my total wins at this casino had just passed $10,000 for the year and assumed that was the trigger. My win/loss statement t the end of the year showed a couple thousand more than that so they are counting my tips , I like to tip well, or they missed a buy in or two during one of my first two visits. I had played about 20 hours combined during those last two nights, all at the same table each night. With lots of big bets( relatively big bets, it's just a $10 min/$1000 max table) I do run a lot of money across the table in a session relative to the other players so I do attract a lot of attention.
I doubt it was a 1099. Something else is going on here. Think CTR or SAR. Was the $4500 and the $6700 cashed out in less than a 24hr period? Did you buy in for a total over 10K in a 24 hr period? Both will trigger a CTR but they fill it out not you. A SAR could be filed for even a few thousand but typically you wouldn't know or be asked to sign anything. They already had your information so maybe it was just intimidation. I've never heard of a player being asked to fill anything out. Your yearly win should not mean anything although they may zero out your comps. Has that happened?
Don't fill out or sign anything unless you know exactly what it is and if you are legally required to do so.
A signature was required, and if I remember correctly my info took up the top two thirds of the page, and there was another third below still to be filled in by the management. Form looked official but I didn't look for form name and/or number. I had cashed out over 10 k in a 24 hour period, once at 6:00 AM ish and the next at 4:00 AM ish the next day, so that's about 22 hours apart. A second look at my win/loss statement does show $00.00 in the W2G/1042S box so I suppose my winnings were not reported. I will look into CTR, and SAR, and earlier someone mentioned an 8066?
Comp offers don't seem to be effected, they have increased from this operation so apparently I don't scare them a bit ;-)
As for them watching you, they were probably checking up on you to see if you were a counter. They probably realized in short order that you weren't, and you'll probably receive no heat next time you go in. In fact, if they're smart, they'll start catering to you nicely.
