At what point is it cheating?

Dealers are human and make mistakes (some more than others). I've been paid on three different occasions after I've busted and haven't even had any cards on my spot. I'd bust, the dealer would take my chip, I'd put my next bet out, and the dealer would end up busting and pay my bet (only $5 each time) even though I didn't have any cards out. I've kept silent when this happens and usually use that money as tip money throughout the rest of the session.

I've been paid a green chip on a red chip bet and also have been paid 3:2 on a regular winning hand (not a blackjack).

Today I was playing and a guy to my right had a $100 bet out. He busted, the dealer took his cards and forgot to take his chips. I signaled to stay on my hand and the guy to my right said "you forgot to take my money" to the dealer. If I was in his position I'm not so certain I would have said anything. Would this be cheating?

Usually I keep quiet about dealer mistakes because I believe it is the casino's responsibility to have their dealers pay out correctly and there are probably times I don't catch their mistakes that are not in my favor.

So when there is a blatant mistake or a mistake of great magnitude (such as the guy with the $100 bet) do you view it as cheating by not bringing it to the dealer's attention?

Quote: Mow21

Dealers are human and make mistakes (some more than others). I've been paid on three different occasions after I've busted and haven't even had any cards on my spot. I'd bust, the dealer would take my chip, I'd put my next bet out, and the dealer would end up busting and pay my bet (only $5 each time) even though I didn't have any cards out. I've kept silent when this happens and usually use that money as tip money throughout the rest of the session.

I've been paid a green chip on a red chip bet and also have been paid 3:2 on a regular winning hand (not a blackjack).

Today I was playing and a guy to my right had a $100 bet out. He busted, the dealer took his cards and forgot to take his chips. I signaled to stay on my hand and the guy to my right said "you forgot to take my money" to the dealer. If I was in his position I'm not so certain I would have said anything. Would this be cheating?

Usually I keep quiet about dealer mistakes because I believe it is the casino's responsibility to have their dealers pay out correctly and there are probably times I don't catch their mistakes that are not in my favor.

So when there is a blatant mistake or a mistake of great magnitude (such as the guy with the $100 bet) do you view it as cheating by not bringing it to the dealer's attention?

No, passively having the dealer pay you in error is not cheating. Christmas just came early.

If you cap or pinch your bets that's cheating. Most everything else is dealer error. But if there is an undeniable pattern where a dealer were to pay your pushes or pay hands where he has you beat, you could be arrested for collusion. This is not likely in a few isolated instances, and charges probably wouldn't stick if they couldn't prove you had an association. But what a hassle. So after being paid when you loose a couple of times, it's time to find another table.

Quote: Mow21

Dealers are human and make mistakes (some more than others). I've been paid on three different occasions after I've busted and haven't even had any cards on my spot. I'd bust, the dealer would take my chip, I'd put my next bet out, and the dealer would end up busting and pay my bet (only $5 each time) even though I didn't have any cards out. I've kept silent when this happens and usually use that money as tip money throughout the rest of the session.

I've been paid a green chip on a red chip bet and also have been paid 3:2 on a regular winning hand (not a blackjack).

Today I was playing and a guy to my right had a $100 bet out. He busted, the dealer took his cards and forgot to take his chips. I signaled to stay on my hand and the guy to my right said "you forgot to take my money" to the dealer. If I was in his position I'm not so certain I would have said anything. Would this be cheating?

Usually I keep quiet about dealer mistakes because I believe it is the casino's responsibility to have their dealers pay out correctly and there are probably times I don't catch their mistakes that are not in my favor.

So when there is a blatant mistake or a mistake of great magnitude (such as the guy with the $100 bet) do you view it as cheating by not bringing it to the dealer's attention?

It's cheating when you can be arrested and charged for your actions.

Its not cheating. Keep quiet, especially if it's someone else's bet.

I actually have an amusing story about this. I tend to be a straight shooter, but if I'm not able to "smoothly" tell the dealer that a mistake was made I'll just take it. Basically, I'll take a mispay when I feel like it.

I was sitting at a PGP table and the dealer mispaid another player. It was a small amount, like $5. I noticed it the whole time and said nothing because you don't want to be the asshole that rats on another player. The guy returned it and the dealer made a comment that when he is playing, he doesn't correct dealer error. Maybe a half an hour later I get a four of a kind with $5 on the fortune. I misread the board and said 50 to 1 to the dealer (he had forgotten). This was an honest mistake, I have no reason to lie now. So he paid me $250 and we went on our merry way. Some more time passes, I think maybe after one of his breaks, and this guy sits down and hits a first hand 4oak. He has $10 on the Fortune and I immediately blurt out $500. However, I get corrected that it's actually a $250 win. 4oak is paid at 25:1, not the 50:1 I was paid earlier at (maybe more than an hour). I thought about giving it back, but if I give it back now he will get in trouble for sure. I had some guilty looks of apology to him since he took my word for the payoff, but I ended up keeping the money.

I feel kind of bad about it, but on the other hand, I had a banker error of $125 in my favor. That's nice.

It's only cheating if you and dealer meet up in the john after his shift to divide up all the "errors."

It's not your job to enforce the game, it's the casino's. If the dealer makes an honest mistake, it's up to casino management to spot it. As a customer, that's not your job and you're not expected to know casino procedure -- much less enforce it.

I will say that I think it's unethical to lie to the dealer (for example, pays you on blackjack, busts, then asks did I pay you? and you say no.) In most cases I would say nothing and take what the dealer offers. I can remember one case where I felt very confident it would be best to not accept. I told the dealer she had a flush when she tried to pay, she said no I have 8 high and turned over the hand I was attempting to discard. I said you have flush, then two other Asians at the table also said you have a flush. Oddly enough she kept interpreting it as "in a rush" and paid. Eventually I gave up. Afterwards she was like you should thank me, I just saved you $x. I threw her $5 for her trouble.

Quote: ahiromu

I actually have an amusing story about this. I tend to be a straight shooter, but if I'm not able to "smoothly" tell the dealer that a mistake was made I'll just take it. Basically, I'll take a mispay when I feel like it.

I was sitting at a PGP table and the dealer mispaid another player. It was a small amount, like $5. I noticed it the whole time and said nothing because you don't want to be the asshole that rats on another player. The guy returned it and the dealer made a comment that when he is playing, he doesn't correct dealer error. Maybe a half an hour later I get a four of a kind with $5 on the fortune. I misread the board and said 50 to 1 to the dealer (he had forgotten). This was an honest mistake, I have no reason to lie now. So he paid me $250 and we went on our merry way. Some more time passes, I think maybe after one of his breaks, and this guy sits down and hits a first hand 4oak. He has $10 on the Fortune and I immediately blurt out $500. However, I get corrected that it's actually a $250 win. 4oak is paid at 25:1, not the 50:1 I was paid earlier at (maybe more than an hour). I thought about giving it back, but if I give it back now he will get in trouble for sure. I had some guilty looks of apology to him since he took my word for the payoff, but I ended up keeping the money.

I feel kind of bad about it, but on the other hand, I had a banker error of $125 in my favor. That's nice.

I too just let it go when it is in the 'history' column ... meaning a few hands ago. If I instantly realize the error I get it corrected; often I have a period of confusion. In this case, fear not, the dealer is getting fired for something else soon enough. I mean, how dumb is it to 'forget' and just take the player's word for it.

Always cover yourself. Never tip a dealer that makes mistakes in your favor.

I've discussed this with dealers over time and for small sums, even against the house, they'd rather not know - also they probably don't want management to know about it. Also remember it points out that the inspector missed it.

Personally I usually keep quiet - besides there's always a chance they payout less (I've seen Blackjacks paid even money when the Ace/Ten busts). However recently at a friendly BJ table, someone's sidebet was only getting 30/1 rather than 35/1; player threw me a £5 for pointing it out (as I'd "made" him £50).

Quote: 1BB

Always cover yourself. Never tip a dealer that makes mistakes in your favor.

This is good advice. I always tip after a dealer error but now it has me thinking that it probably makes me look like I am colluding.

I really hate dealer errors. It puts me in an awkward position that I don't like. I know I should say something but it's not my job to deal the game.

If you get a dealer error and you should tip the dealer because of it....this is a grey area in it of itself. Of course, you can justify it to yourself as "I'm just tipping the dealer like I'm supposed to" or whatever your rationale may be. Of course, you aren't thinking, "I'm colluding with the dealer, I tip him and he makes errors in my favor."

That isn't to say I don't tip when the dealer makes an error. I generally tip throughout play, regardless of errors. If/when there is an error, I don't tip immediately. I'll generally tip a little extra throughout my play, or give an extra amount when I color up/leave the table. But I'm certainly not going to have a $300-400 error swing, and immediately throw in a $25 hand in.

I try not to give the dealer any hints about a mistake. But, if I'm at a table and the dealer pulls a 21 and treats it like she busted, and if I think other players caught it but didn't say anything -- I like to verify if they caught it or not. Maybe something like, "Even when I lose I still win" or "Hey, a win is a win right? with a slight grin.


I played at one table and it was awesome. Dealer came in, said she was brand new (her first day), and dealer errors were off the chart. There was a certain move third base player had to do, and if he did it properly (and he won his hand), dealer would treat her hand like she busted. Every time. Everyone at the table knew, too. The first time it happened, some crazy Asian lady almost exploded with "DON'T SAY ANYTHING!!" almost yelling at me. I looked at her, like I was confused, and fixed one of the dealer's errors (procedural, not payout). After me fixing her procedural error, that made the dealer treat her hand like she busted. If the dealer didn't follow the proper procedure, she would treat her hand as normal and not as a bust. Once the Asian lady had figured out the key (when dealer treats her hand as a bust and when she doesn't), she thanked me. The first time I helped the dealer fix her procedural error, the Asian lady thought I was fixing the payout error, but by her following proper procedure, she had forgotten she hadn't busted. Great times were had.

Pointing out dealer errors also makes the dealer look bad in front of the pit personnel. I will only point out errors if I was shorted money.

Quote: 1BB

Always cover yourself. Never tip a dealer that makes mistakes in your favor.

Also: order a drink (alcohol). Become the confused drunk fool who doesn't know what's going on.

****

I don't mind benefitting from a dealer error at the table, because the house benefits from player error at the table. (In fact, by offering the Big 6/Big 8 bet on a craps table, the house is deliberately deceiving the inexperienced players.) But for some reason I can't explain, it's a bit more difficult for me to rationalize profiting from a mistake made by a cashier at the casino cage. I know this is an arbitrary double standard, but everyone draws the line somewhere. I don't like profiting from a mistake at the grocery store or gas station, but I'm perfectly delighted to profit from a mistake at a blackjack table. Call me a hypocrite.

Quote: reno

Also: order a drink (alcohol). Become the confused drunk fool who doesn't know what's going on.

****

I don't mind benefitting from a dealer error at the table, because the house benefits from player error at the table. (In fact, by offering the Big 6/Big 8 bet on a craps table, the house is deliberately deceiving the inexperienced players.) But for some reason I can't explain, it's a bit more difficult for me to rationalize profiting from a mistake made by a cashier at the casino cage. I know this is an arbitrary double standard, but everyone draws the line somewhere. I don't like profiting from a mistake at the grocery store or gas station, but I'm perfectly delighted to profit from a mistake at a blackjack table. Call me a hypocrite.

I think that if you called a dealer mistake in your favor to the dealer's attention, and gave the money back, the pit wouldn't be thinking "what an honest, nice guy", they'd be thinking, "why'd he do that?"

Quote: Greasyjohn

I think that if you called a dealer mistake in your favor to the dealer's attention, and gave the money back, the pit wouldn't be thinking "what an honest, nice guy", they'd be thinking, "why'd he do that?"

Maybe I'm the odd one out, but when I'm flooring, if a player gives back a misplay, I immediately bust out the match plays. If it's sizeable enough, I'll even bust out food comps.

Quote: DRich

Pointing out dealer errors also makes the dealer look bad in front of the pit personnel.

I was going to mention this and I am glad DRich did.

The very first time I was in a casino -- in St Maarten back in 1977 -- I had a dealer who over paid me on several hands. I thought I was being "honest" when she put a green chip under a red chip to pay me for a $5 bet -- so I said "this isn't mine" as I pushed back the green chip. What I didnt realize was that a supervisor at another table was watching her and saw me push back the chip -- and she was taken off the game.

What I was told by players later is that these dealers in St Maarten would overpay players hoping to get tips. It was like they are financing their own tips.

On the one hand you don't want to be pointing out errors to get a dealer in trouble. On the other hand you don't want to look like you're part of it and end up in the back room -- or in a prison in the Carribbean. But it's a very delicate situation. Maybe you should just leave?

Now, at casinos in Vegas from time to time the craps game will get very heated and there might be a dirty stackand you might get a green chip instead of a red one. Usually the dealers spot it. But if they don't I leave the pay on the table until the dealer says something and then I will nod at the payout on the table and they usually will catch it. I would never pick up an overpay.

To be honest-- I don't think I've ever been shorted.

Quote: GWAE

This is good advice. I always tip after a dealer error but now it has me thinking that it probably makes me look like I am colluding.

I really hate dealer errors. It puts me in an awkward position that I don't like. I know I should say something but it's not my job to deal the game.

Have no fears. You are not tipping that dealer. You are tipping each and every dealer that works that shift, or in some cases, that week! If it is a place where the dealer actually can keep individual tips, then yes, that wouldn't be wise.

Quote: Greasyjohn

the pit wouldn't be thinking "what an honest, nice guy", they'd be thinking, "why'd he do that?"

That depends greatly on where you are.

I give back mistakes at places I know pay attention - places where otherwise the eye will call down in 20 minutes and have the mistake corrected, anyway.

And yeah, the pit did thank me for being an honest guy, once they understood that I didn't want the interruption later.

And the eye amazingly didn't catch the mistakes later on to have them corrected, which was a pleasant surprise.

Quote: SOOPOO

Have no fears. You are not tipping that dealer. You are tipping each and every dealer that works that shift, or in some cases, that week! If it is a place where the dealer actually can keep individual tips, then yes, that wouldn't be wise.

You are right that tip sharing is the norm, but tipping a dealer that makes a mistake in your favor looks like you're saying thank you.

Dealer errors seem to be good businesS in some ways. Say you gamble $1000 a session. One place shorts you needing argument and one overpaid. Same overpayment as comp or incentive might be seen as an insult, but as a mistake you feel good and want to go back. They should do this more intentionally by dealer discretion.

Can't be cheating taking it and I would keep playing hoping they would err again. Edit: within reason as a small proportion to stake or buyin. Too much, you feel uncomfortable and want to leave before they sue you etc.

One time I got a pair and split them. Both hands ended at 17. The dealer also drew to a 17. As she's settling the bets, she takes my chips. I immediately pointed out that we both had 17. She looks at the cards still on the table and says OK. By this time the pit boss had walked over. The dealer then proceeded to put my two chips back and then take two more and pay those two. Since there was already a mistake that was being settled, the pit boss watching and 4 others at the table watching, I figured I didn't want any more attention and said no ma'am, we both had 17, it's a push. Everybody at the table goes wow, he's so honest and the pit boss gives me a little nod. It's not about being honest, it's about what you can get away with.

The other day I was playing Ultimate Texas Hold'Em. I got a flush and the dealer proceeds to pay my ante and bet and then goes to the blind and starts dropping a bunch of chips. I'm trying to figure out what's going on when I realize he's was looking at the pay table for the trips bet(which I had not made). I just sat there and didn't say anything and nobody else did either. I figured I would leave the chips there until he either realized his mistake or went on to the next player. Well then he proceeds to take all of my chips and stack them on top of each other and push them to me. At this point I just grabbed them. Two hands later, the guy next to me gets a straight and the same thing happens. Just after his bet is settled and he grabs his chips, the pit boss walks over and casually grabs his two cards from the discard tray, looks at the player and asks for 3 chips back. The guy just said he thought they couldn't ask for them once they were paid out. Again the pit boss asks for them and he gives them back. He kind of had a guilty look on his face. The key is to just play dumb. Act like you didn't know what was going on. A few hands later I get another flush and the dealer goes to do the same thing but the pit boss is right there watching. When he starts dropping the chips, I said no this pays $7.50 on the blind. I figure I got lucky once and shouldn't push it.

I think dealer error pays are on a different level than if a cashier at a store gave you too much change. There's no way they can count the whole chip tray in relation to the bets to see if it was short. Gambling is me against the house and I'll certainly use all legal means necessary to try to come out ahead. They're making plenty off of the idiots playing slots that I don't care about an error or two.

Not cheating by any means, there was no collusion. However, my experiences at this is that those chips will become tainted. Don't know why but every time that happens at the baccarat table, just about a certainty that the next 10 hands will be lost.

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

However, my experiences at this is that those chips will become tainted.

That's hocus pocus but if it makes you feel better then give them back I wouldn't fault you either way.

I don't think it has anything to do with honesty as a person. I know some people who in every other aspect of their life are very honest but in this situation they wouldn't say anything.

I feel it's different if its a cashier. I feel bad for that individual because they will get in more trouble and possibly have to pay it back or even lose their job.

Quote: AxelWolf

That's hocus pocus but if it makes you feel better then give them back I wouldn't fault you either way.

I don't think it has anything to do with honesty as a person. I know some people who in every other aspect of their life are very honest but in this situation they wouldn't say anything.

I feel it's different if its a cashier. I feel bad for that individual because they will get in more trouble and possibly have to pay it back or even lose their job.

No, you are right and I give back when a cashier does it outside the casino. Somehow when this happens in bac, especially at a small midi table if you are on first base the shoe has a habit of covering the bets from dealers view, my 'saved' chips usually never win after that. It's all good.

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

No, you are right and I give back when a cashier does it outside the casino. Somehow when this happens in bac, especially at a small midi table if you are on first base the shoe has a habit of covering the bets from dealers view, my 'saved' chips usually never win after that. It's all good.

Seeing how you're a successful business owner, I can't believe you believe that crap.

Normally it's uneducated people in the poorhouse that make statements like that, because math clearly disproves those types of theories. And I know you understand math, because if you didn't you would run your business into the ground in no time.

Perfectly normal and smart people sometimes think irrationally in a casino. I am guilty myself. I swear a 7 is rolled like 90% of the time immediately following when dice go off the table.

Quote: 1BB

Always cover yourself. Never tip a dealer that makes mistakes in your favor.

I'm not sure that I totally agree with your statement. I suggest that if a dealer makes a mistake in your favor (eg. paying out your 20 vs. dealer 20), then wait a few hands until they pay you correctly (eg. paying your 21 vs. dealer 20) and leaving a tip for "that hand". Any thoughts?

I'm a craps player, and the following has occurred:

- Been overpaid on a winner
- A losing bet wasn't collected
- I was paid on a losing bet
- I bought in for $300 and was given $400 in chips

In every situation I just collected the money. Of course when I was underpaid, I did point that out.

The casino wants to take every penny you have, and they are willing to get you drunk in order to do it. Take what you can get (but don't cheat obviously).