Mow21
Mow21
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February 9th, 2015 at 3:31:35 PM permalink
Hello everyone! I am young card counter that has read some conversations on this forum and I appreciate the blackjack knowledge that is shared. I wasn't going to create an account but after my trip to the casino today I have a couple of quick questions that I'm sure you guys have the knowledge and experience to answer.

Today I sit down at a table with 5 others to play some Blackjack (I'm at third base). About half way through the (6 deck) shoe I am faced with a 12 vs a dealer 4. The RC is -1 so I hit my 12 and get an Ace, I stay on 13. The dealer flips over a 7 and draws a 10 for a 21. This guy at first base bangs his fist against the table in frustration. The next hand the player at first base loses again and he says to me "you screwed it up the last hand". Out of the next 7 hands that are played he loses 5 and pushes 2. He says to the guy sitting next to him "I've lost every single hand since that guy (pointing to me) messed up" He also muttered I'm going to kick his ass to himself, quietly. He lost about $150 since my "mistake"

New shoe. We've played about a deck out of a new shoe and I am faced with a 12 vs a dealer 3. I hit and bust with a 10. The dealer, of course, pulls off a 21 and would have busted if I had stayed. The guy at first base is even more mad than last time and glares at me during and after most hands that he loses. Later in the shoe I have an A8 vs a dealer 6. I double down and get a 10. Same song different verse, the dealer gets a 20 and takes the $20 bet from the guy at first base and I get even more glares from him. Next hand he has an $80 bet and gets a 19. The dealer had a 10 showing and flipped over another 10. He flips me off and says "F you" and leaves. He walked around the table a couple of times before slamming the water that he was drinking in a garbage can about 10 feet away from me. He ended up losing around $300.

I'm 5'7" and 140 pounds. He was probably the same height and 200 pounds and much older. I think I can defend myself adequately but I don't want it to come down to that. So my question is when someone has the irrational belief that taking a card that you shouldn't have (even if it's correct BS) affects them not only for that hand but the rest of the shoe, what do you say? I don't want any trouble and don't want things to escalate. The only thing I said to him the whole time at the table was that my move "wasn't a bad move". Has anyone ever felt threatened and what do you do or say to help this situation? Is it worth not using index plays if someone is going to be furious with you? Should you ever ask the player with the biggest bet what he wants you to do or offer him to buy your hand?

Thank you guys for your time! Any advice is greatly appreciated!
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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February 9th, 2015 at 3:41:29 PM permalink
Quote: Mow21

Hello everyone! I am young card counter that has read some conversations on this forum and I appreciate the blackjack knowledge that is shared. I wasn't going to create an account but after my trip to the casino today I have a couple of quick questions that I'm sure you guys have the knowledge and experience to answer.

Today I sit down at a table with 5 others to play some Blackjack (I'm at third base). About half way through the (6 deck) shoe I am faced with a 12 vs a dealer 4. The RC is -1 so I hit my 12 and get an Ace, I stay on 13. The dealer flips over a 7 and draws a 10 for a 21. This guy at first base bangs his fist against the table in frustration. The next hand the player at first base loses again and he says to me "you screwed it up the last hand". Out of the next 7 hands that are played he loses 5 and pushes 2. He says to the guy sitting next to him "I've lost every single hand since that guy (pointing to me) messed up" He also muttered I'm going to kick his ass to himself, quietly. He lost about $150 since my "mistake"

New shoe. We've played about a deck out of a new shoe and I am faced with a 12 vs a dealer 3. I hit and bust with a 10. The dealer, of course, pulls off a 21 and would have busted if I had stayed. The guy at first base is even more mad than last time and glares at me during and after most hands that he loses. Later in the shoe I have an A8 vs a dealer 6. I double down and get a 10. Same song different verse, the dealer gets a 20 and takes the $20 bet from the guy at first base and I get even more glares from him. Next hand he has an $80 bet and gets a 19. The dealer had a 10 showing and flipped over another 10. He flips me off and says "F you" and leaves. He walked around the table a couple of times before slamming the water that he was drinking in a garbage can about 10 feet away from me. He ended up losing around $300.

I'm 5'7" and 140 pounds. He was probably the same height and 200 pounds and much older. I think I can defend myself adequately but I don't want it to come down to that. So my question is when someone has the irrational belief that taking a card that you shouldn't have (even if it's correct BS) affects them not only for that hand but the rest of the shoe, what do you say? I don't want any trouble and don't want things to escalate. The only thing I said to him the whole time at the table was that my move "wasn't a bad move". Has anyone ever felt threatened and what do you do or say to help this situation? Is it worth not using index plays if someone is going to be furious with you? Should you ever ask the player with the biggest bet what he wants you to do or offer him to buy your hand?

Thank you guys for your time! Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Just ignore them. What could you possibly say to convince them of anything? Offer to switch seats.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
RS
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February 9th, 2015 at 3:46:16 PM permalink
Your money, play it how you want to. I wouldn't offer to sell hands, but if someone wanted to buy my hand, I wouldn't have an issue with it, assuming I'm getting +EV out f it.

Might be good to wong out and ignore those psycho players. If you don't have an option and can only play through it, might be worth it to flag down a supervisor or someone and let them know some dude is a raging psycho.
chaunceyb3
chaunceyb3
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February 9th, 2015 at 4:00:12 PM permalink
Oh my God. He lost $300.00?! Is th... tha... that American dollars?

AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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February 9th, 2015 at 4:00:30 PM permalink
Quote: RS

Your money, play it how you want to. I wouldn't offer to sell hands, but if someone wanted to buy my hand, I wouldn't have an issue with it, assuming I'm getting +EV out f it.

Might be good to wong out and ignore those psycho players. If you don't have an option and can only play through it, might be worth it to flag down a supervisor or someone and let them know some dude is a raging psycho.

Yes but now you have a stupidvisor watching your table, thats not good.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
HowMany
HowMany
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February 9th, 2015 at 4:00:47 PM permalink
Just play your game. Ignore others at the table.

A wise man once said: "There are others at the table?"

Also, probably not best to play at a table with 5 other players. That's too many.

Welcome to the forum. I hope you stick around.
Mow21
Mow21
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February 9th, 2015 at 4:07:59 PM permalink
Thank you guys for the reassuring responses. I would have left if there was another $5 table open!
vendman1
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February 9th, 2015 at 5:04:19 PM permalink
One of my guiding principles in life is "people are morons". This is especially true in the casino. Ignore everyone else at the table to the extent that you can. Better yet play at a table with only one or two other people. While you are at it, ignore the dealer too. Most of them are nice enough and are actually rooting for you (winners tip more), but the average dealer knows squadoosh about BJ. They actually dispense misinformation more often than not. Nuggets like "the two is the dealers ace" is my personal favorite. Don't ignore other people to the point of rudeness...that just draws attention to you. But keep it simple. The key to being a good counter, is to learn to roll with stuff over which you have no control. Drunk guys next to you spills a drink..no worries. Overly aggressive moron doesn't understand your plays...that's his problem. Good luck to you and keep at it.
sabre
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February 9th, 2015 at 5:37:19 PM permalink
Quote: Mow21


I'm 5'7" and 140 pounds.



Your problems start here. Hit the gym, move heavy weight, eat a lot, and come back and let us know if anyone is threatening you when you weight 195 and can dead/squat/bench over 1000 lbs.
Mission146
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February 9th, 2015 at 5:43:50 PM permalink
Quote: vendman1

Most of them are nice enough and are actually rooting for you (winners tip more), but the average dealer knows squadoosh about BJ.



I agree with that, although many dealers know BS. Usually, if a dealer starts a sentence with the words, "The book says to," the next thing out of his mouth is going to be something, 'The book,' does not say to do.

I remember watching a new player play a few weeks ago, just killing time, and he gets 5-3, six-deck game against a dealer four, and he asks the dealer what to do. The dealer replies, "The book says to double." I asked, "What's the name of your book, I Want This Newb Off My Table as Fast as Possible?"
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
1BB
1BB
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February 9th, 2015 at 5:53:25 PM permalink
Quote: Mow21

Thank you guys for the reassuring responses. I would have left if there was another $5 table open!



Welcome, Mow21. It's nice to have another member to talk blackjack with.

You've gotten some good advice, the best of which is to ignore other players and try to play heads up. Once in a while I'll ask the know it all what the next card out of the shoe is. When he can't tell me, I then ask why in the world I should listen to him. Casinos do attract the nut jobs and you just don't know what they may be capable of so it really is best not to engage them. Good cards to you!
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
dwheatley
dwheatley
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February 9th, 2015 at 6:03:06 PM permalink
I don't sit at 3rd base at crowded tables for this reason. Too much time between hands, so someone is going to notice your 'strange' plays. They don't care nearly as much if you aren't last. It's not worth the small theo gain, if you have to play at a crowded $5 table, take an early seat.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
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February 9th, 2015 at 6:07:20 PM permalink
Quote: Mow21

I would have left if there was another $5 table open!



Not sure what your spread is, but you may do better heads up at a $10 table than at a crowded $5 table.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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February 9th, 2015 at 7:02:13 PM permalink
Quote: Mow21

Hello everyone! I am young card counter that has read some conversations on this forum and I appreciate the blackjack knowledge that is shared. I wasn't going to create an account but after my trip to the casino today I have a couple of quick questions that I'm sure you guys have the knowledge and experience to answer.

Today I sit down at a table with 5 others to play some Blackjack (I'm at third base). About half way through the (6 deck) shoe I am faced with a 12 vs a dealer 4. The RC is -1 so I hit my 12 and get an Ace, I stay on 13. The dealer flips over a 7 and draws a 10 for a 21. This guy at first base bangs his fist against the table in frustration. The next hand the player at first base loses again and he says to me "you screwed it up the last hand". Out of the next 7 hands that are played he loses 5 and pushes 2. He says to the guy sitting next to him "I've lost every single hand since that guy (pointing to me) messed up" He also muttered I'm going to kick his ass to himself, quietly. He lost about $150 since my "mistake"

New shoe. We've played about a deck out of a new shoe and I am faced with a 12 vs a dealer 3. I hit and bust with a 10. The dealer, of course, pulls off a 21 and would have busted if I had stayed. The guy at first base is even more mad than last time and glares at me during and after most hands that he loses. Later in the shoe I have an A8 vs a dealer 6. I double down and get a 10. Same song different verse, the dealer gets a 20 and takes the $20 bet from the guy at first base and I get even more glares from him. Next hand he has an $80 bet and gets a 19. The dealer had a 10 showing and flipped over another 10. He flips me off and says "F you" and leaves. He walked around the table a couple of times before slamming the water that he was drinking in a garbage can about 10 feet away from me. He ended up losing around $300.

I'm 5'7" and 140 pounds. He was probably the same height and 200 pounds and much older. I think I can defend myself adequately but I don't want it to come down to that. So my question is when someone has the irrational belief that taking a card that you shouldn't have (even if it's correct BS) affects them not only for that hand but the rest of the shoe, what do you say? I don't want any trouble and don't want things to escalate. The only thing I said to him the whole time at the table was that my move "wasn't a bad move". Has anyone ever felt threatened and what do you do or say to help this situation? Is it worth not using index plays if someone is going to be furious with you? Should you ever ask the player with the biggest bet what he wants you to do or offer him to buy your hand?

Thank you guys for your time! Any advice is greatly appreciated!



I've been in these situations many times. When I frst started, I played for very low stakes. And I played like a machine. Splitting 10s when I was supposed to, but having only maybe 15 bucks out...so everyone thought I was an idiot. Little did they know I was the only good player in the building. I took all the abuse. And there was a lot at the beginning. What I've learned is...don't take it. Unless the count is positive, or there are no tables available, go to a different table. There is no mathematical reason why you should stay at that table. Go to a diferent table. Unless you're a tough guy, then get in his face. Either way, end the abuse quickly. Don't allow it to continue. It gets worse. You sit there, don't move, and say little or nothing, it escalates. If you continue to count, what you will find is that the most profitable way to play is alone. So you shouldn't even play with others if it can be avoided. This is impossible at some casinos, but there was a casino I used to go to in the morning. It would have 5 empty tables. Bad players never want to play alone. Someone would sit down at my table, despite the four empty tables. The count would go negative, I'd color up, and go to the other table. Occassionally, the idiot would follow me. I'd immediately leave, and tell the guy to quit following me. Doesn't matter how you play if you're alone. Basically, avoid abuse. People have no sense at blackjack tables. As for index plays, some disagree, I've found it is not worth splitting 10s because of all the abuse. I don't throw any other plays out the window. They don't like it, too bad.
beachbumbabs
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February 9th, 2015 at 7:14:44 PM permalink
Welcome, Mow!

It's your money, so you should play as you want. I note in the first hand, if you take the 10 the jerk was whining about, you bust. Sure is nice of him, spending your money like that.

I think the casino Floor should intervene when some player's threatening another. I don't know why they don't, but I do know that I leave those tables, and I rarely play BJ (decades now) because of the moronic abuse of other players, whether directed at me or not.

I liked the advice about "tell me the next card if you're so good". I think saying "an unseen card is an unseen card, and I played the way I felt best for my hand" is a little less confrontational but makes the same point.

Regardless, your money, your play. Send people like this to this forum for a proper spanking if they persist; these guys are experts. lol...
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
DrawingDead
DrawingDead
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February 9th, 2015 at 8:09:03 PM permalink
Something similar to this crap happens at poker tables, often in the form of: "How could you call me with that trash!" Of course the person doing it is always the least competent player at the table, and is always wrong. Always, every time. And when a weak staff chooses not to do their job and step in to deal with it as they should, one develops a few handy stock responses to shut them up enough to move on, so they can finish losing their money. Don't know if this works the same in the pit, but some of mine are:

    1. MP3 player + earbuds + volume knob.

    2. "No hablo Inglés, Senor."

    3. Psycho gibberish, delivered with a crooked maniacal smile & slightly themed to the game at the table: "The hypoteneuse of the reverse implied Sklansky ace outs exceeded the square root of stack to kettle ratio... so I called." I find his one works best when you're seriously short on sleep & haven't had a chance to shave in a couple of days so you may plausibly look like someone who's supposed to be on some kind of serious medication, but isn't.
Suck dope, watch TV, make up stuff, be somebody on the internet.
Donuts
Donuts
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February 9th, 2015 at 8:33:33 PM permalink
Quote: sabre

Your problems start here. Hit the gym, move heavy weight, eat a lot, and come back and let us know if anyone is threatening you when you weight 195 and can dead/squat/bench over 1000 lbs.



This right here.
Johnny C. told me point blank that size matters:

1) Intimidate players passing by looking to move in on your heads up table.
2) Other players won't get aggressive towards you
3) Throw on a wifebeater and you have a top-tier disguise
4) Security treats you better when you get backed off
Mow21
Mow21
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February 9th, 2015 at 9:21:00 PM permalink
All of this advice is much appreciated! I will use this advice the next time I play and it will only make me a stronger player! I will definitely try to sit at first base or near first base if I do encounter a table with multiple people there.

One more quick thing about this whole situation. It seems in this instance (and other instances I've experienced) if you take a card you get more grunts and disapproval from others than in situations where you don't take a card. Like today when I hit a 12 vs 4 this triggered the man's negative emotions. Multiple times in the next dozen or so hands people would stand at a 16, 15, or even 14 vs a dealer 10 and he wouldn't bat an eyelash. Even though the actions of these people had just as big as an impact on the rest of the shoe as my decision, he seemed to target his anger at me because I took a card.
Greasyjohn
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February 9th, 2015 at 9:44:17 PM permalink
Quote: Mow21

Hello everyone! I am young card counter that has read some conversations on this forum and I appreciate the blackjack knowledge that is shared. I wasn't going to create an account but after my trip to the casino today I have a couple of quick questions that I'm sure you guys have the knowledge and experience to answer.

Today I sit down at a table with 5 others to play some Blackjack (I'm at third base). About half way through the (6 deck) shoe I am faced with a 12 vs a dealer 4. The RC is -1 so I hit my 12 and get an Ace, I stay on 13. The dealer flips over a 7 and draws a 10 for a 21. This guy at first base bangs his fist against the table in frustration. The next hand the player at first base loses again and he says to me "you screwed it up the last hand". Out of the next 7 hands that are played he loses 5 and pushes 2. He says to the guy sitting next to him "I've lost every single hand since that guy (pointing to me) messed up" He also muttered I'm going to kick his ass to himself, quietly. He lost about $150 since my "mistake"

New shoe. We've played about a deck out of a new shoe and I am faced with a 12 vs a dealer 3. I hit and bust with a 10. The dealer, of course, pulls off a 21 and would have busted if I had stayed. The guy at first base is even more mad than last time and glares at me during and after most hands that he loses. Later in the shoe I have an A8 vs a dealer 6. I double down and get a 10. Same song different verse, the dealer gets a 20 and takes the $20 bet from the guy at first base and I get even more glares from him. Next hand he has an $80 bet and gets a 19. The dealer had a 10 showing and flipped over another 10. He flips me off and says "F you" and leaves. He walked around the table a couple of times before slamming the water that he was drinking in a garbage can about 10 feet away from me. He ended up losing around $300.

I'm 5'7" and 140 pounds. He was probably the same height and 200 pounds and much older. I think I can defend myself adequately but I don't want it to come down to that. So my question is when someone has the irrational belief that taking a card that you shouldn't have (even if it's correct BS) affects them not only for that hand but the rest of the shoe, what do you say? I don't want any trouble and don't want things to escalate. The only thing I said to him the whole time at the table was that my move "wasn't a bad move". Has anyone ever felt threatened and what do you do or say to help this situation? Is it worth not using index plays if someone is going to be furious with you? Should you ever ask the player with the biggest bet what he wants you to do or offer him to buy your hand?

Thank you guys for your time! Any advice is greatly appreciated!



Hey Moe,

I would never, ever, ever not make the correct index play in order to keep an unknowledgeable player happy.

Things you might say:

I've been doing real well hitting my 12s when the dealer has a 5.

Sorry, but I've been getting killed standing on my 13s when the dealer has a low card.

Hey, I'll try to bring you some winners.

Should I lose my hand so you can win?

If you think the way I play my hand makes you bust, then stand.
hitthat16
hitthat16
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February 9th, 2015 at 11:02:05 PM permalink
Quote: Mow21

I will definitely try to sit at first base or near first base if I do encounter a table with multiple people there.



Unfortunately you will encounter "ploppy heat" no matter where you sit. I was getting verbal abuse from a player just the other day and I was sitting at first base!

I usually say "If you don't like the way I play, there are plenty of other tables you can move to."

Another good one is "I understand your frustration, but if you're gonna act like this then you have to give me a cut of your winnings any time I make a play that helps you." Funny enough I haven't had any takers on that one!

I'm young as well, and its interesting having to be the bigger man when a 50 year old professional acts immaturely to you. Always stand your ground! Never not make a correct play just cause someone else might get mad.
Sonuvabish
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February 9th, 2015 at 11:38:37 PM permalink
Quote: Mow21

All of this advice is much appreciated! I will use this advice the next time I play and it will only make me a stronger player! I will definitely try to sit at first base or near first base if I do encounter a table with multiple people there.

One more quick thing about this whole situation. It seems in this instance (and other instances I've experienced) if you take a card you get more grunts and disapproval from others than in situations where you don't take a card. Like today when I hit a 12 vs 4 this triggered the man's negative emotions. Multiple times in the next dozen or so hands people would stand at a 16, 15, or even 14 vs a dealer 10 and he wouldn't bat an eyelash. Even though the actions of these people had just as big as an impact on the rest of the shoe as my decision, he seemed to target his anger at me because I took a card.



It depends on the player. The proper play in H17 is to surrender a 17 v. A if surrender is available. Most people stand. Some people get mad if I surrender, even though I took no card...and by standing, which is what they would do, I also take no card. Same thing with 16 v. 10...a lot of people stand on it, but if one of these 'standers' sees you surrender, he may get upset. There's no rhyme or reason to what makes players, in general, angry...except for things like splitting 10s. Following correct basic strategy very often upsets players...anything you do to an 18 besides stand may set someone off. Hitting a 12 v. 2 sets people off...not hitting a 12 v. 2 sets other people off. Third base does generally get a bit more grief, so you can choose a beginning seat. But I wouldn't worry about whether taking a card is the trigger...it varies between individuals. And no one cares what you do if they are winning.
Kickass
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February 10th, 2015 at 12:34:47 AM permalink
Welcome to the forum. I used to play blackjack 5-6 days a week for almost 3 years . But I switched to poker after I got 86ed everywhere in southern California. In general, it is impossible to reason with the gamblers. Most of the forum members would tell you to ignore them and play your game. To be honest with you, most card counters don't make a lot of money from Blackjack. If you need to deal with the angry gamblers and the count is not super high at all, why don't you just go to other casinos or switch to other tables. Remember that you are your own boss. Unlike the other jobs, you can choose when, where and whom you deal with.
Leave Katie alone. Rasul: Or what? Or I come back and break your F** legs
Minty
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February 10th, 2015 at 12:43:13 AM permalink
There are a couple ways to handle this. Here are some of my favorite responses to angry players. I don't use them all, as I'm fairly conflict avoidant, but I find that even thinking of them can be beneficial.
"I messed up the order of the cards? Tell me next time I'm about to get a blackjack."
"It's my money, and my decision to make."
"There's another table over there if you'd rather play there."
"Sorry, it just felt like the right thing to do."
"I'm here to gamble right?"

Keep in mind that even though these situations can be stressful or uncomfortable they won't always happen! In fact, deviations from basic strategy are as likely to hurt them as help them. Pointing out their successful hands after your deviations can help ease the tension and gain validity for what you're doing. Hopefully all goes well and the cards give you better sessions than the one you mentioned!
"Just because I'm not doing anything illegal, doesn't mean I won't have to defend myself someday." -Chip Reese
Dieter
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Dieter
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February 10th, 2015 at 3:48:40 AM permalink
The only way I've ever diffused the rage of another player is when I wasn't playing.

If they're angry at you for "screwing it up", they're not going to listen to your reasons.

However, on a few occasions, I've been watching the game from behind, and seen people get irate about a "dumb play". Usually they're mad at a casual player who has no clue what they're doing, but sometimes they're mad at someone making an index play.

I've found it quite effective to lean over, and whisper something to the irate player like "If you're not having fun, you can always take a break."

Amazingly, they often take a break after that hand. Since they weren't angry at me, it doesn't come across as confrontational.

So, all you need is a confederate to back-count other tables and tell people at your table to leave if they don't like your play.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Greasyjohn
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February 10th, 2015 at 5:19:04 AM permalink
In all my years playing blackjack I've only had two negative things occur when I've made index plays that I recall. One was when I split 10's when the dealer had a 5 or 6 up. Old grouchy guy to my left said, "I hope you lose". The dealer busted. Then, once me and an older Aisan lady were playing at a table together. I hit my 13 against a dealer 3 in a negative 3 count. Lady glares at me when she loses to the dealer and just walks away. At least she could appreciate basic strategy. Both incidents happened at the Golden Nugget.

Most of the time I'm betting more than the civilians at the table. You're not likely to hear negative comments when you do that. (I've always liked the term "civilians" instead of ploppies. I heard that Grosjean coined that expression.)
Romes
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February 10th, 2015 at 7:27:03 AM permalink
Welcome to the forums!

As everyone else said this is something that's going to happen just from playing the game itself. You don't have to know BS, you don't have to be a counter, and people will always yell at you if they feel you made them lose (right play or not). I've had very good basic strategy players tell me I messed up for playing basic strategy because on THAT hand I should have stayed, then we all would have won! No matter what you're going to get crap from people, but you should NEVER take it from them because it will only get worse. You MUST stand up to them, and in my opinion, in a smart way. It's so easy to defuse a situation/ploppy with a couple of key phrases you'll learn through your experiences and pick up from this thread. My favorites:

1) Something like 12-2, 12-3, surrendering, A-8 double to 6, hitting A-7 to dealer A-10-9, etc... "That's a basic strategy play. I'll bet you $100 we pull basic strategy out for this game and I made the right play." No one EVER takes this bet and it shuts up 90% of people on the spot because it immediately highlights how little they know about the game. Sometimes you'll get the people whom still argue on that you should have knowingly not played basic. Then, just move on to one of the next comments =P.

2) Something like an index 12-4, 12-6, etc... "I play by the book most of the time, but you can't always play by the book, because the book eventually loses. Sometimes you gotta go with your gut!"

3) The classic: "It's my money, I'll play it how I like."

4) When someone says you "changed the flow of the cards" or "messed the shoe up"... "If you know how the shoe is going to go, then tell us all before the cards come out." Often I'll ask them what the next card is. Of course they have no clue and generally just shut up.

5) "Hindsight is 20/20"

A couple of other things I like to do... Point out when my 'weird' plays help everyone (after being berated) then requesting money for making them win. Say in your situation where you hit the 12v4 and pulled the ace, then the dealer 11 got the 10... I would point out "Yeah, and if those 2 cards came out in the other order then you'd be praising me for saving the table. If you don't know what order they're in then it doesn't matter."

What it comes down to is a quick or witty comeback will often defuse any situation, especially (in my opinion) if it highlights how little the other person knows about the game. I can't tell you how many times someone yells at me to NEVER split 4's and I immediately say "I'll bet you $100 for this game it is a basic strategy play." Betting someone always makes them shut up because they're never willing to put their money where their mouths are. In the end you MUST stand up for yourself though, or it will ONLY get worse. If they see you as a punching bag, well, they're going to punch (verbally hopefully =p). If you're ever worried about physical harm, have security escort you to your car; that's what they're there for.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
nvr55xx
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February 11th, 2015 at 7:53:48 AM permalink
Quote: Mow21

Hello everyone! I am young card counter that has read some conversations on this forum and I appreciate the blackjack knowledge that is shared. I wasn't going to create an account but after my trip to the casino today I have a couple of quick questions that I'm sure you guys have the knowledge and experience to answer.

Today I sit down at a table with 5 others to play some Blackjack (I'm at third base). About half way through the (6 deck) shoe I am faced with a 12 vs a dealer 4. The RC is -1 so I hit my 12 and get an Ace, I stay on 13. The dealer flips over a 7 and draws a 10 for a 21. This guy at first base bangs his fist against the table in frustration. The next hand the player at first base loses again and he says to me "you screwed it up the last hand". Out of the next 7 hands that are played he loses 5 and pushes 2. He says to the guy sitting next to him "I've lost every single hand since that guy (pointing to me) messed up" He also muttered I'm going to kick his ass to himself, quietly. He lost about $150 since my "mistake"

New shoe. We've played about a deck out of a new shoe and I am faced with a 12 vs a dealer 3. I hit and bust with a 10. The dealer, of course, pulls off a 21 and would have busted if I had stayed. The guy at first base is even more mad than last time and glares at me during and after most hands that he loses. Later in the shoe I have an A8 vs a dealer 6. I double down and get a 10. Same song different verse, the dealer gets a 20 and takes the $20 bet from the guy at first base and I get even more glares from him. Next hand he has an $80 bet and gets a 19. The dealer had a 10 showing and flipped over another 10. He flips me off and says "F you" and leaves. He walked around the table a couple of times before slamming the water that he was drinking in a garbage can about 10 feet away from me. He ended up losing around $300.

So my question is when someone has the irrational belief that taking a card that you shouldn't have (even if it's correct BS) affects them not only for that hand but the rest of the shoe, what do you say? I don't want any trouble and don't want things to escalate. The only thing I said to him the whole time at the table was that my move "wasn't a bad move". Has anyone ever felt threatened and what do you do or say to help this situation? Is it worth not using index plays if someone is going to be furious with you? Should you ever ask the player with the biggest bet what he wants you to do or offer him to buy your hand?

Thank you guys for your time! Any advice is greatly appreciated!



Most Blackjack strategy books don't mention this, but sometimes the " heat" that you have to worry about is not from the casinos, but from the other players. You need to learn to have a thick skin when you play. Try to avoid getting into discussions/arguments with other players. If possible, just shut up. If the novice player is wagering more money than you, the casino may take their side, even if they don't think you're counting cards. Try make your unit bets large enough to be noticed as something more than just a "cheap guy" so that the casino will value you as a customer. Be friendly with the dealerif the player is also bothering her.
If you're a little worried about safety, wait around the casino for about 15 minutes. If you're being followed or threatened, get security. You may get barred, but it may be worth it to protect your safety.
nvr55xx
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February 11th, 2015 at 8:12:30 AM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

It depends on the player. The proper play in H17 is to surrender a 17 v. A if surrender is available. Most people stand. Some people get mad if I surrender, even though I took no card...and by standing, which is what they would do, I also take no card. Same thing with 16 v. 10...a lot of people stand on it, but if one of these 'standers' sees you surrender, he may get upset. There's no rhyme or reason to what makes players, in general, angry...



Since cards that are surrendered are put into the discard tray before cards that are stood on (as well as the dealer's cards) you've "ruined the order of the cards" on the next shoe.
DJTeddyBear
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February 11th, 2015 at 8:19:21 AM permalink
Whenever someone talks about the order of the cards, I remind them that the shuffle could be slightly different so that a "bad play" can help the other players.


Then I see this:
Quote: nvr55xx

Since cards that are surrendered are put into the discard tray before cards that are stood on (as well as the dealer's cards) you've "ruined the order of the cards" on the next shoe.

Really? I mean, like, REALLY???

Does the random shuffle mean nothing?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
dwheatley
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February 11th, 2015 at 8:23:38 AM permalink
I have a very smart gambling friend (of small stature) who acts very dumb when another player gives him heat. He'll look at the player with a bewildered look, then back at the cards, then say something like "I don't really know what happened, didn't I hit?" when he just stood, or vice versa.

The griefing player gets a stunned look of shock, and realizes this isn't going to work. Also make great camo.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
nvr55xx
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February 11th, 2015 at 8:34:56 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Whenever someone talks about the order of the cards, I remind them that the shuffle could be slightly different so that a "bad play" can help the other players.


Then I see this:

Quote: nvr55xx

you've "ruined the order of the cards" on the next shoe.

Really? I mean, like, REALLY???

Does the random shuffle mean nothing?



Of course a random shuffle means nothing. When a casino shuffles a six deck shoe, it is always set up to provide the maximum player return to X number of players for the duration of the shoe up to the shuffle point .

But to get serious for a second: what is 2+3? What is 3+2? What does an Ace and a 10 total? What does a 10 and an Ace total? so then why would "the order of the cards" matter?
Dieter
Administrator
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February 11th, 2015 at 9:29:30 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Does the random shuffle mean nothing?



What's a random shuffle?
May the cards fall in your favor.
1BB
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February 11th, 2015 at 9:36:14 AM permalink
Quote: dwheatley

I have a very smart gambling friend (of small stature) who acts very dumb when another player gives him heat. He'll look at the player with a bewildered look, then back at the cards, then say something like "I don't really know what happened, didn't I hit?" when he just stood, or vice versa.

The griefing player gets a stunned look of shock, and realizes this isn't going to work. Also make great camo.



That's one of mine and it works great! It's also fun in an otherwise mundane setting.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
ahiromu
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February 11th, 2015 at 10:04:01 AM permalink
I just stare them down. Since I'm a pretty big guy, it's worked so far... but if you hear of someone getting beat up for doubling on a soft 18 it was probably me and I was probably antagonizing him.

I could totally see this happening in AC with the New Yorkers, not as likely in Vegas.

Edit: Bad grammar
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
Edge21
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February 11th, 2015 at 10:27:56 AM permalink
Quote: chaunceyb3

Oh my God. He lost $300.00?! Is th... tha... that American dollars?



Ba ha ha ha ha nice one!?!
Edge21
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February 11th, 2015 at 10:44:33 AM permalink
Quote: Mow21



Can I relate to you or what!? I'm young myself and have come across this MANY times in my short years of playing BJ as a CC. Can't tell you how many times the older folks have tried to burn me with their evil eyes or said something passive and rude aloud at my SMART plays. But what can you do? (A kick in their butts would be fun...but I'd wait until you we're outside. Ha ha) The less attention you get...the better for your play. I'd also recommend playing with (including yourself) only 2 other players or less! So unless the deck is hot I'd just leave the losers behind and go enjoy making money elsewhere. Not our faults that these "players" get a kick out of losing their money while they try to sneak a peek at the cocktail girls who could give a !@#$ less about these old timers. But keep on playing and don't let these fools get to you.



*Disclaimer: Edge21 does not promote violence or is responsible for you getting your arse kicked or 86'd. But by all means...don't be a punk.*

Romes
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February 11th, 2015 at 12:26:53 PM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

I just stare them down. Since I'm a pretty big guy, it's worked so far... but if you hear of someone getting beat up for doubling on a soft 18 it was probably me and I was probably antagonizing him.

I could totally see this happening in AC with the New Yorkers, not as likely in Vegas.

Edit: Bad grammar


Trust me it happens in every city, not just the ones you expect it. In general, I would take a bet that it happens in more off the beat paths than in AC or something of the likes... I've found in my experiences, the more uneducated the players are, the more they want to be mad at someone else for 'making them lose' and thus blaming other peoples play on moronic superstitious things.

And I don't think I could go without point out... "Edit: 'poor' grammar" ;)
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
odiousgambit
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February 11th, 2015 at 1:10:46 PM permalink
And I don't think I could go without point out...

pointing out, sir! LOL
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: 典hanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Romes
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February 11th, 2015 at 1:37:37 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

And I don't think I could go without point out...

pointing out, sir! LOL


Now that's attributed to quickly posting and dropping letters off words lol. TOUCHE sir, touche.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
aceofspades
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February 11th, 2015 at 2:52:25 PM permalink
Quote: chaunceyb3

Oh my God. He lost $300.00?! Is th... tha... that American dollars?




literally laughed out loud
Figuratively pissed my pants
aceofspades
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February 11th, 2015 at 3:26:00 PM permalink
flashback
RaleighCraps
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February 11th, 2015 at 6:20:02 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Quote: odiousgambit

And I don't think I could go without point out...

pointing out, sir! LOL


Now that's attributed to quickly posting and dropping letters off words lol. TOUCHE sir, touche.



umm touché touché
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
Sonuvabish
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February 11th, 2015 at 10:34:43 PM permalink
Quote: nvr55xx

Since cards that are surrendered are put into the discard tray before cards that are stood on (as well as the dealer's cards) you've "ruined the order of the cards" on the next shoe.



LOL. I am so not stupid, I honestly never realized that was their problem. Ploppy Mythology should be taught in colleges.
Romes
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February 12th, 2015 at 8:15:38 AM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

Quote: nvr55xx

Since cards that are surrendered are put into the discard tray before cards that are stood on (as well as the dealer's cards) you've "ruined the order of the cards" on the next shoe.



LOL. I am so not stupid, I honestly never realized that was their problem. Ploppy Mythology should be taught in colleges.


It's almost like it's own religion... For whatever logic/math/science you give them they turn around and have some off the wall "well you can't 'prove' you didn't change the cards" answer.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Deck007
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February 12th, 2015 at 4:30:14 PM permalink
Quote: Mow21

Hello everyone! I am young card counter that has read some conversations on this forum and I appreciate the blackjack knowledge that is shared. I wasn't going to create an account but after my trip to the casino today I have a couple of quick questions that I'm sure you guys have the knowledge and experience to answer.........................

I'm 5'7" and 140 pounds. He was probably the same height and 200 pounds and much older....................

Thank you guys for your time! Any advice is greatly appreciated!



Welcome to the world of BJ. You have arrived.
You are one of us now. Guys here will tell many more tales of much more harrowing experiences playing BJ. It happens all the time.

"BJ is the only game where how you play your cards affect other players cards."

There is no two ways about it. It is not a matter of playing the correct way or worst making smart moves in CC. If your funny play makes the other player lose a dollar they will give you a difficult/ very difficult time. That is why many of my friends don't play BJ. I myself play only sparingly now.

Whether you should continue to play BJ depends on your temperament and character.
If you are a sensitive and introverted type then you may want to give it a miss.
However if you are a combative, hard-headed type then you would can to carry on.
I think the test for you is a player ask you to FO how will you react. If you are hurt by this then don't play. If you reply FO to him and some more then this is the game for you.

You mention you are "I'm 5'7" and 140 pounds." Yes in BJ size matters and the threat of violence is always present. And guys here will tell you it has happened before. Thank Goodness I only play perfect BS and not as clever as you in CC. Still I get hammered when I hit 16 vs 7 and soft 18 vs 10. You split your 10's and much more.

Finally never sit on third base.
If you take or don't take a card and the dealer get a good outcome and make the others lose their bet they will all land on you like a ton of bricks. Still you have to watch out for the guy in third base. He feels he is the self appointed sheriff on the table and give you a hard time.
Also if things get really bad leave the table. You don't want to end up in hospital and the guy will probably get into a fight with someone else.
nvr55xx
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February 13th, 2015 at 6:03:11 AM permalink
Quote: Deck007

Welcome to the world of BJ. You have arrived.
You are one of us now. Guys here will tell many more tales of much more harrowing experiences playing BJ. It happens all the time.

"BJ is the only game where how you play your cards affect other players cards."

There is no two ways about it. It is not a matter of playing the correct way or worst making smart moves in CC. If your funny play makes the other player lose a dollar they will give you a difficult/ very difficult time. That is why many of my friends don't play BJ. I myself play only sparingly now.



This nonsense about "players ruining the order of the cards" is why Blackjack is dying. A first time player (Bob) walks up to a table with an empty spot, and one or more players yells "Wait! You can't come in now, it'll ruin the order of the cards". So Bob sits for 10 minutes, when he would rather be playing. On the first hand, Bob gets dealt A7 vs the dealer's 10 up card, while all the other players are dealt hard 19. Knowing that it is a basic strategy hit Bob taps the table and draws a 3 for 21. Rather than congratulating him, all the other players say "You took the dealer's bust card!". The dealer has a 6 under for 16 and then deals a 4 for a total of 20. All the other players complain and yell at him. "You selfish jerk. If you stood, you would have saved the table!" Pointing out that it's a basic strategy hit and that he would have lost his own hand had he stood, the other players respond with "So what? When you play at a full table, you have to think about the other players." Getting tired of being yelled at, Bob leaves and decides to play Ultimate Texas Hold'em instead.

Unfortunately, dealers and casino personelle often spread these myths. I'm pretty sure that in the 60's you could have split 10's against a 5 or 6, enter mid-shoe, etc. and nobody would have said anything.
nvr55xx
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February 13th, 2015 at 6:06:53 AM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

Quote: nvr55xx

Since cards that are surrendered are put into the discard tray before cards that are stood on (as well as the dealer's cards) you've "ruined the order of the cards" on the next shoe.



LOL. I am so not stupid, I honestly never realized that was their problem. Ploppy Mythology should be taught in colleges.



I wonder: do players ever insure Blackjacks anymore? Usually when players take "even money" the cards are put in the discard tray first. Have you ever tried or witnessed anyone insuring a Blackjack so that the cards will be left on the layout to "preserve the order of the cards"?
Greasyjohn
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February 13th, 2015 at 6:42:39 AM permalink
I haven't completely thought this through, but I've given it enough thought that I think my opinion is solidified. If a player is verbally abusive or criticizes your play, don't be combative. Maintain a posture as though you're trying not to hurt him/her (usually him). I've often heard the remark, "If you don't like the way I play there are other tables you could move to." I would avoid this kind of language if possible. He might respond with, "If you knew how to play your hand we wouldn't have a problem. You should find another table of idiots." Even if he doesn't says these exact words your statement to him could illicit a similar response. Try to keep it friendly.

Things you might say:

If you want to get better at blackjack you have to play blackjack, right?

I don't mean to hurt your hand, but I've got to play my hand the way I want to, right?

I don't tell you how to play your hand.

If any player at the table played their hand differently since the last shuffle you wouldn't have gotten that bust card.


Yes, sometimes someone can be so vile that you have to switch into high gear. But try to catch the bear with honey first.

If you can, always try to be open to being pleasant. If somene is looking for a fight, don't give it to them. Your enemies are just friends you haven't won over yet.
MidwestAP
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February 13th, 2015 at 6:59:26 AM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

Your enemies are just friends you haven't won over yet.



While I admire your sentiment, that's just not me. Unless it's a work situation where saying something back can effect my employment status or income (and for the few BJ professionals that may be the case here, don't think it applies to the OP), I don't feel any need to win over someone being an ass to me. I ignore for while but if the aggressor continues to escalate, you can be sure he'll get my full and un-filtered opinion of anything and everything that I find annoying about him. His poor play, his mistaken "card order" mythology, his girly drink, his stinky smokes, his fake Rolex, etc.

I wouldn't do this on the one-off remark, those I can laugh off with one of the responses you mentioned. It's only the person who persists on making life tough for someone else, who has every right to play the way they want, given their money is also at risk.
Sonuvabish
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February 13th, 2015 at 8:24:02 AM permalink
Quote: nvr55xx

This nonsense about "players ruining the order of the cards" is why Blackjack is dying. A first time player (Bob) walks up to a table with an empty spot, and one or more players yells "Wait! You can't come in now, it'll ruin the order of the cards". So Bob sits for 10 minutes, when he would rather be playing. On the first hand, Bob gets dealt A7 vs the dealer's 10 up card, while all the other players are dealt hard 19. Knowing that it is a basic strategy hit Bob taps the table and draws a 3 for 21. Rather than congratulating him, all the other players say "You took the dealer's bust card!". The dealer has a 6 under for 16 and then deals a 4 for a total of 20. All the other players complain and yell at him. "You selfish jerk. If you stood, you would have saved the table!" Pointing out that it's a basic strategy hit and that he would have lost his own hand had he stood, the other players respond with "So what? When you play at a full table, you have to think about the other players." Getting tired of being yelled at, Bob leaves and decides to play Ultimate Texas Hold'em instead.

Unfortunately, dealers and casino personelle often spread these myths. I'm pretty sure that in the 60's you could have split 10's against a 5 or 6, enter mid-shoe, etc. and nobody would have said anything.



Blackjack is the most popular casino game in the world. It's not dying. The rules are getting worse because players are getting better, and the casino wants it's bottom line. The short term effect of player decisions on other players' outcomes is most pronounced in blackjack and that has always been the case. If this were a problem for the casino, I have no doubt they would make an effort to inform the public that a player's decisions are statistically meaningless to anyone else's odds.
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