Dealer Error: An Unusual AP Opportunity : Advice and comments please

Hi All,

Tonight I was faced with a dealer error that wrong-footed me and left me deep in thought. I'm not morally averse to taking gentle advantage of dealer errors. But I'm not a mean and deliberate cheat.

Here's the scenario:-
I was playing recreationally head to head at my local provincial casino in the UK. Table stakes £2-£1,000, No DAS. It was quiet with just me playing and the pit supervisor was paying no attention. No pressure, no counting, no heat. I'd bought in for £50 and was intent on playing about 2 hours at £2 - £10 per hand. I was initially messing about, playing £2 hands and doubling twice on wins. After about an hour I was at £130 or so BR and playing £5 or £10 a hand, all the time heads up. After a while, as is my habit, I said to the dealer that I would stop and take a few minutes break. It might seem like odd behaviour, but I sat facing the dealer, swigged my coffee and didn't bet. There was no intent to trick, hypnotise or confuse the dealer. The table was red and so were my chips.
.
.
Then, to my surprise, he dealt to my empty box. I got 2 aces to his 8.

I looked up and said. "Erm, I didn't bet, I'm resting.... Oh well, don't worry about it". I expected him to discard the cards, but he looked a bit phased, scooped up the three cards and called over the pit supervisor. We explained what had happened. She asked the order of the cards and said that they should go back in front of the shoe (auto shuffle) to be played in same order at the next hand. i was well shaken and said that I expected them to be discarded and that it felt like I it was a bit unfair that I now knew the next cards. She explained that they weren't allowed to burn cards and that it was just my 'advantage' that I knew the order. As it happened, she had put the cards in the wrong order, so I said 'OK. but you've put the cards wrong and they will come out A8 for me against A for dealer.' She checked, apologised and put them right. I'm 50:50 about whether she made that error intentionally, but that's by the by.
At this time I was a bit at a loss as to what to do. I made it clear that I did not want to take any unfair advantage, but she said " No: sorry, it was our mistake and this is what we have to do". If I was to play another game, I had to play those 3 cards in that order. Wow! Irritated, bemused, and staring at what seemed like an easy AP*. I had about £150 in red chips and much more in cash, what should I do and what might be the consequences? I considered popping £50 into each of three boxes and take my chances, and I considered pushing £50 into the one box with the intent of splitting those aces. I even considered walking away.
My eventual play was to push my normal £5 forward and split those aces. I got two tens against dealer bust for two easily won hands. Without hesitation, I tossed the dealer a £5 tip for treating me fairly. We all smiled and carried on. I played about 7 more hands, winning 5 of them and coloured up for a nice successful fun two hour session.

Now: Opinions please: How could I or should I have played it? What if I'd played mean and whacked an uncharacteristically big bet on this pre-determined good hand? What if the misdealt cards had been absolutely favourable, such as a Blackjack against his 8? From a technical standpoint, would the casino have forced me to play with that advantage and would they have let me thrash them with a big or even massive pre-won bet?

I want to be ready for next time ;)

*Also, How big was my advantage, if any?

Interesting question. Since they handled well and were very nice to you, I would have asked the pit boss how much they would let me bet on that hand. Then I would have bet the lessor of that amount or half my bankroll.

Interesting that you're not allowed to muck the cards. I wonder if that's an England thing, or just that casino's policy. In Washington state, what we are not allowed to do is back up the cards, like your casino did. The cards must either be discarded or play as they lie.

I know how I would rule as a pit boss. I would leave the cards as they lie, and I would let you wager up to your last bet or your average bet. This pit boss was very generous with her ruling letting you bet whatever you wanted.

Quote: Deucekies

I know how I would rule as a pit boss. I would leave the cards as they lie, and I would let you wager up to your last bet or your average bet. This pit boss was very generous with her ruling letting you bet whatever you wanted.

I would have been happy to discard them, which is what I expected to happen. The question was never raised about how much I might bet. I felt it honourable to just play what had been my recent bet amount. The tip pretty much cancelled out any advantage. None of this was of any real consequence in the end. But it could have been if I'd been super aggressive in taking the advantage, or if the hand had been a Blackjack, where I think I would have invited the pit boss to restrict my next bet.

Quote: OnceDear

How should I have played it?

The ethical side of me says - If you're taking a break, stand up.

Don't do anything "obvious", like going more than double your previous bet. You might want to put a bet out for the dealer, too.

I think it's perfectly fair to drop your bet to table minimum if you know you have a bad hand coming.

No need to feel guilty about the dealer's error, or that you now know the cards to come. Rules are rules and you did your best to avoid a situation where you can take advantage.

But should you go all out to take advantage? Tough question. Will they give you negative marks on your player's club account? Dunno.

Frankly, I'd feel guilty about over-doing taking advantage of the situation. That said, I'd probably bet about double my normal bet.

Quote: OnceDear

I want to be ready for next time ;)

Sounds like you're planning on taking another break, hoping to induce the same error. That seems like a bad idea.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Sounds like you're planning on taking another break, hoping to induce the same error. That seems like a bad idea.

No not really. It is quite normal for me to take brief time out breaks to glug my coffee or assess my stack of chips. That won't change. I'm not looking to induce or abuse this type of error. I just don't want to be wrong footed again.

I would've gone to the ATM or done whatever I hadda do to get 3 max bets out there on 3 spots.

Why would you ever show any mercy to a casino when they've knowingly agreed to give u the opportunity

Quote: Dieter

The ethical side of me says - If you're taking a break, stand up.

I often stop my play for 30 seconds to a minute or so, to glug my coffee or to catch my breath when the dealer is fast. I don't feel any urge to stand at those times, though I do feel it appropriate to maybe change my position, such as swivelling my chair 60 to 90 degrees, just in the interest of saving confusion.

Quote: Dieter

Don't do anything "obvious", like going more than double your previous bet. You might want to put a bet out for the dealer, too.

Agreed. I didn't want to give any impression that I was encouraging the dealer to make mistakes.

Quote: Dieter

I think it's perfectly fair to drop your bet to table minimum if you know you have a bad hand coming.

Absolutely agree with no qualms at all.

Quote: michael99000

I would've gone to the ATM or done whatever I hadda do to get 3 max bets out there on 3 spots.

Why would you ever show any mercy to a casino when they've knowingly agreed to give u the opportunity

Not really my style. I've no wish to cause career issues for employees. I don't want a reputation for being ruthless. The money is not everything. My current thinking is that I would behave honourably to the extent of asking the pit supervisor if she wishes to burn the cards, reconsider or consult, or to restrict my next play. Only if she declined all of those options would I feel it appropriate to agressively punish the error. Even then, I would make it clear that I'm about to try to exploit that advantage, and is she sure that she doesn't want to review her decision...... Then, I would maybe cane it.

I've had similar situations where the next card is shown and I normally do what I would have done. The only exception is where it affects other people or the action would be quixotic - such as busting my hand, but I do stand on 20 even if the next card is an Ace.

In your case I think the correct action for the casino was
(i) offer you the cards (your correct action would be to play them as you would have done at your previous betting level) or
(ii) "shuffle up" by taking all the exposed cards and current discard pile - putting them back in the CSM.
(iii) Emptying the machine and restarting.

There was one case I remember many years ago, south of Manchester, where everyone was playing 4-deck shoe based BJ, mostly £3 bets. The dealer made a mistake which couldn't easily be rectified (as they hadn't got any camera footage). In the end the manager - and I give him great credit for his approach - asked whether all players were happy to be deemed to have won the hand and have a new shoe shuffled-up. That's old school common sense, keep the customers happy and the game flowing; I bet they'd never do that nowadays.

I have sometimes wondered about the hypothetical case where the dealer has a 7 showing (in the UK they don't have the second card) and the exposed card is a 10; no-one wants it as it busts their hand but I'm in last spot. Only in that case would I stand as they haven't given me a chance to win and why should I be the one to "take the hit".

Quote: charliepatrick

In your case I think the correct action for the casino was
(i) offer you the cards (your correct action would be to play them as you would have done at your previous betting level) or
(ii) "shuffle up" by taking all the exposed cards and current discard pile - putting them back in the CSM.
(iii) Emptying the machine and restarting.

i... That's what happened, everybody happy.
ii.. I'd have been happy with that.
iii. Seems like overkill.

Quote: charliepatrick

That's old school common sense, keep the customers happy and the game flowing; I bet they'd never do that nowadays.

I've been in a game where cards were placed wrong way up in the shoe and some came out face up. The pit boss asked all if they were happy to just play out that round with whatever there bets were already out at. It made little difference and everybody happy.

No one answered your math questions yet:

The A,A vs 8 situation you played in is 0.3507 in an infinite deck. Let's say that a 1000 pound bet was worth 350.7 in expectation, but it's subtly different cause you were playing a shoe game.

Three spots with A ; A ; 8 against unknown dealer card is 0.5017 ; 0.5017 ; -0.0871.

So the optimal play here is to bet a lot of on the first two, and table min on the 3rd. That is, 1000 on first 2 hands and 2 on the 3rd hand. Expectation is 501.7 + 501.7 - 0.17 = ~1003 pounds.

So if you had the cash, the 3 spots is the right play and very valuable.

If I figured this out, I would have put a significant amount on spots 1 and 2. I doubt splits and doubles are that significant for an Ace, so the correct play is to put half your bankroll on each if you don't have 2000 pounds.

Here's the Wizard's page of EV by starting hand. That page is for 6D H17. I suppose it might have been 5 decks if dealt from CSM.

According to that page your EV was about 0.35 units for A,A vs. 8 if you split (which is, of course, the right decision). Unless I'm reading the chart wrong.

Personally I would have bet more. Probably half my chips so I could be sure to split. Might have even reached for my wallet for more...I mean not that I'm greedy, but you have offered them several outs and they are repeatedly saying you will have to play the cards you already know are coming. I would not consider it unethical to bet as much as you want.

I had a similar situation at an electronic 3CP game at NYNY (Vegas). The cards were physically dealt but it was one of the "electronic bet" games. The machine had some malfunction and it looked like they were going to reset the machine (letting us re-place our bets) but leave the hands up. I had a flush, and the pit boss actually encouraged me to bet MORE (especially on the PP) since I knew it was a guaranteed winner. But, it turns out, the machine wouldn't let them do that (probably on purpose).

They appeared to be so fed up with that machine in general that they didn't care if we won a bunch of money on a known hand.

EDIT: dwheatley beat me to it, and indeed has the right play if you are trying to maximize EV.

Quote: OnceDear

...at my local provincial casino in the UK...No DAS.

Are you sure - most Blackjack tables in the UK have to allow DDAS. There are a few BJ variants around so I might be wrong - however http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/blackjack.html doesn't specify this explicitly - whereas this does.

Quote: http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/pdf/rules of casino games in great britain - june 2011.pdf

4.33 On a hand formed as a result of a split pair, players on that hand have the option of doubling
their wager in accordance with rule 4.24.

It's worth checking the casino's rules for games as they may have it there, but I know the regulations on displaying House Edge etc. have been relaxed. Please PM if you need more help as I'd be interested in visiting that casino sometime and seeing their rules!

Quote: charliepatrick

In the end the manager - and I give him great credit for his approach - asked whether all players were happy to be deemed to have won the hand and have a new shoe shuffled-up. That's old school common sense, keep the customers happy and the game flowing; I bet they'd never do that nowadays.

I recently had a case at CET property where the dealer hit a 19, drawing to a 29. We were a 25$ table, with three hands of 25-100 on the table. The floor manager comes over, looks at the hand that we all should have lost, and basically says, "Well, nobody would've wanted you to stop there, and you're over 21, so it's a bust. Congratulations; pay the table."

Frankly, I was hoping for a dead hand and the T to be burned, and expecting us to lose, with the T burned.

Quote: charliepatrick

Are you sure - most Blackjack tables in the UK have to allow DDAS.

Good catch No DAS is what my online haunt has. This bricks and mortar casino does allow DAS, but I'm unsure after splitting aces.

Most casinos in the UK (but not 100%) have re-splitting pairs (incl Aces), DD on any two cards, s17, no peek rule. In theory they can change this, but it would have to be clearly displayed (I assume at the table) or called something that isn't "Blackjack". For instance of those I've been into and played Grosvenor are as above, Genting sometimes only used to allow DD 9-11.

Quote: OnceDear

Hi All,

Tonight I was faced with a dealer error that wrong-footed me and left me deep in thought. I'm not morally averse to taking gentle advantage of dealer errors. But I'm not a mean and deliberate cheat.

Here's the scenario:-
I was playing recreationally head to head at my local provincial casino in the UK. Table stakes £2-£1,000, No DAS. It was quiet with just me playing and the pit supervisor was paying no attention. No pressure, no counting, no heat. I'd bought in for £50 and was intent on playing about 2 hours at £2 - £10 per hand. I was initially messing about, playing £2 hands and doubling twice on wins. After about an hour I was at £130 or so BR and playing £5 or £10 a hand, all the time heads up. After a while, as is my habit, I said to the dealer that I would stop and take a few minutes break. It might seem like odd behaviour, but I sat facing the dealer, swigged my coffee and didn't bet. There was no intent to trick, hypnotise or confuse the dealer. The table was red and so were my chips.
.
.
Then, to my surprise, he dealt to my empty box. I got 2 aces to his 8.

I looked up and said. "Erm, I didn't bet, I'm resting.... Oh well, don't worry about it". I expected him to discard the cards, but he looked a bit phased, scooped up the three cards and called over the pit supervisor. We explained what had happened. She asked the order of the cards and said that they should go back in front of the shoe (auto shuffle) to be played in same order at the next hand. i was well shaken and said that I expected them to be discarded and that it felt like I it was a bit unfair that I now knew the next cards. She explained that they weren't allowed to burn cards and that it was just my 'advantage' that I knew the order. As it happened, she had put the cards in the wrong order, so I said 'OK. but you've put the cards wrong and they will come out A8 for me against A for dealer.' She checked, apologised and put them right. I'm 50:50 about whether she made that error intentionally, but that's by the by.
At this time I was a bit at a loss as to what to do. I made it clear that I did not want to take any unfair advantage, but she said " No: sorry, it was our mistake and this is what we have to do". If I was to play another game, I had to play those 3 cards in that order. Wow! Irritated, bemused, and staring at what seemed like an easy AP*. I had about £150 in red chips and much more in cash, what should I do and what might be the consequences? I considered popping £50 into each of three boxes and take my chances, and I considered pushing £50 into the one box with the intent of splitting those aces. I even considered walking away.
My eventual play was to push my normal £5 forward and split those aces. I got two tens against dealer bust for two easily won hands. Without hesitation, I tossed the dealer a £5 tip for treating me fairly. We all smiled and carried on. I played about 7 more hands, winning 5 of them and coloured up for a nice successful fun two hour session.

Now: Opinions please: How could I or should I have played it? What if I'd played mean and whacked an uncharacteristically big bet on this pre-determined good hand? What if the misdealt cards had been absolutely favourable, such as a Blackjack against his 8? From a technical standpoint, would the casino have forced me to play with that advantage and would they have let me thrash them with a big or even massive pre-won bet?

I want to be ready for next time ;)

*Also, How big was my advantage, if any?

I would start drinking more coffee more often.

I would've definitely asked the pit boss how much you could bet. I think they can fade the loss.

As dwheaty stated... The "proper" play is to play 3 hands, getting 2 aces on 2 of them (first and third). Your 3 hands should start with A, 8, and A. As he stated the Aces have about a 51% EV (in the long run you'll win 50% of whatever you bet in that situation). So if you table maxed hands 1 and 3, and min bet hand 2, indeed you could expect to make about 1,000 euro's on the hand.

I understand you don't want to appear "ruthless," but I honestly don't understand both that, or how that would be ruthless. It sounds like you gave the casino every opportunity to burn the cards, etc. The dealer told you more than once it was their mistake and you were allowed to play with the advantage of knowing the next cards. At that point I don't think it's "hero" or "proper behavior" to not bet the table max on hands 1 and 3.

You say it's not about the money, then why are you there? Entertainment? How much more entertaining could it possibly be to be an AP for a hand? =P

It's my opinion that casinos prey on the weak minded, the poorly math skilled, and above all else losing players. They deserve zero sympathy. Just think, that same PB has probably seen some drunk people whom can't afford to lose what they're losing, and thought "great, we'll make some money tonight." That's the person you're being "properly behaved" for.

Never the less it's more than likely a moot point now. You're saying you want to know what to do for next time, but that will more than likely not happen again. Even if you somehow get exposed cards, they probably won't be heads up with 2/3 being aces =). At the end of the day you did what you thought was right, so no one can take that from you and it's your money so it's your call. I'm just saying had I been in that position I would have absolutely bet 1000, 2, 1000... and promptly collected (on average) over 1000 euros. If you want to be nice and thank the dealer, toss the dealer a 100 euro tip. I guarantee had you asked the dealer if he'd prefer you play 1 hand 5 euro, tip 5 euro, or 3 hands 1000 euro, tip 100 euro, he would have told you to play all 3. His job was at ZERO risk because he properly called over the PB whom made him put them back in order.

Quote: AxelWolf

I would start drinking more coffee more often.

Tee Hee

Quote: OnceDear

No not really. It is quite normal for me to take brief time out breaks to glug my coffee or assess my stack of chips. That won't change. I'm not looking to induce or abuse this type of error. I just don't want to be wrong footed again.

Hmmm. It happened again on most recent visit. There were 3 of us at the table. Guy at last seat droppped out but remained sitting facing the dealer, then after about 5 hands, lady at middle seat dropped out, again, still facing the dealer, leaving me heads up at 2nd seat playing 2 reds a hand. I saw the waiter wandering towards me with my coffee. I quite conspicuously said something like 'Count me out for a while'... but he dealt two cards on auto-pilot, a 10 to me and a 10 to dealer. I yelled WOAH! before any more cards came and he popped them back at the outlet to the shoe. He called pit lady over and again she said 'We don't burn cards, put them back... is this the right order?'. I said' Doesn't matter, I saw them and they were both the same. I carried on with my coffee and waited a minute or two till a new player joined the table to my left. Then I staked my average bet of £10 and we both got our ten. As it happened, I lost my hand because 2nd card was a 6.
Once again, this was not a deliberate ploy or any kind of mischief on my part. But I won't feel guilty if it happens again.

Wow... You shouldn't feel guilty, you're doing nothing wrong. The dealer is just on auto-pilot and dealing cards. If you're allowed to take advantage of these situations, you should absolutely do so to the max. In that situation, I would have played 2 hands max bet to get both 10's and a nice EV on each hand (I want to say it was something around 15% edge w/ 1st card 10... I'm feeling too lazy to look it up right now lol).

If there is a bet in the circle the cards will be dealt. If you want to sit out remove the bet.

Quote: 1BB

If there is a bet in the circle the cards will be dealt. If you want to sit out remove the bet.

Though he didn't say it explicitly, I think he did pull his bet back.

Quote: Deucekies

Though he didn't say it explicitly, I think he did pull his bet back.

I was also under this impression... If there was a bet in the circle, then I agree with 1BB.

Quote: Romes

I was also under this impression... If there was a bet in the circle, then I agree with 1BB.

If there was a bet in the circle, they're not backing up the cards. If they are, let's take a road trip.

Quote: Deucekies

Though he didn't say it explicitly, I think he did pull his bet back.

There never was any bet ( I can't recall if I'd just lost the previous bet, or had lifted all my chips out of the box).
I'd said that I was taking a break, but he dealt anyway to an empty box. They're square boxes, not circles at this store.

Quote: Romes

I would have played 2 hands max bet to get both 10's and a nice EV

Lol, ramping from £10 to 2 x £1,000 in one step on a dealer error might be the last time I'd be welcome there.

Quote: OnceDear

Lol, ramping from £10 to 2 x £1,000 in one step on a dealer error might be the last time I'd be welcome there.

You laugh but I've seen pit bosses encourage a player to take advantage of a dealer mistake many times. Quick example. A 4 is the next card out and the player has hard 17. Double down says the friendly pit boss. The goodwill is worth it and that's a smart pit boss.

Quote: 1BB

You laugh but I've seen pit bosses encourage a player to take advantage of a dealer mistake many times. Quick example. A 4 is the next card out and the player has hard 17. Double down says the friendly pit boss. The goodwill is worth it and that's a smart pit boss.

Doubling down is one thing. Bicentupling down is another.

Quote: Romes

As dwheaty stated... The "proper" play is to play 3 hands, getting 2 aces on 2 of them (first and third). ...

Re-reading this thread, it occurs to me that, for that earlier event, we were all too focused on the EV of having those cards as potential Blackjack hands with some great probabilities: The table offered a 'Perfect pairs' side bet and a pair of unmatched aces would have paid a GUARANTEED 5 to 1 !!! I never play those side bets, but I mucked up bigtime by not considering their potential !!!

Quote: OnceDear

The table offered a 'Perfect pairs' side bet and a pair of unmatched aces would have paid a GUARANTEED 5 to 1 !!! I never play those side bets, but I mucked up bigtime by not considering their potential !!!

The $ that just evaporated from your pocket makes me sad. If the max limit on the sidebet was small, say 25pounds, it will still be worth it to play out the three hands. If it was 100pounds, then you play AA.

I would have bet big. If re-splitting aces were allowed then I'm not sure if betting 50% your chips is the right move, or 33% or 25%, to have ammunition in case you need to re-split.

Thanks Mike, and others for reassuring me that to do so would not be particularly dishonourable. I'm coming round to thinking that its a case of their rules, their responsibility, their problem and that to go the extra mile to show mercy is a mistake.

Yes. re-splitting aces is allowed and yes, there's always a risk of running out of doubling funds. I'll make sure I have a full wallet in future, just in the extremely unlikely event of an extremely lucrative opportunity arising.

Quote: OnceDear

Thanks Mike, and others for reassuring me that to do so would not be particularly dishonourable. I'm coming round to thinking that its a case of their rules, their responsibility, their problem and that to go the extra mile to show mercy is a mistake.

Yes. re-splitting aces is allowed and yes, there's always a risk of running out of doubling funds. I'll make sure I have a full wallet in future, just in the extremely unlikely event of an extremely lucrative opportunity arising.

I think the dealer backing the play up is an extremely subjective move on the PB's part, and at least partly motivated by how your stack's looking and what your reputation is to that point at the table. I have seen any number of moves done in consideration of how valuable the client is to the house, the most common re-setting a fouled PGP or Asia Poker hand from a loss to a win (rather than taking the loss or pushing because of the foul). It tends to fall in the favor of Diamond/7S players and bigger bettors, against the favor of obnoxious players and low-tier guests. Same with whether, after the cards are dead, the dealer/pit realizes the dealer set their hand wrong or incorrectly paid a player who had a push or loss. Some times they say "never mind; dead hand", other times they'll back the cards out of the discard bin and ask for the money back.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I think the dealer backing the play up is an extremely subjective move on the PB's part, and at least partly motivated by how your stack's looking and what your reputation is to that point at the table.

Take a look at the first post, Babs. This is a rule at that casino, and the pit boss has no discretion over it.

Cards in blackjack are never backed up. When a mistake happens players are usually given the option of pulling their bet back without penalty. The mistakenly dealt card is then offered to the next player. If no player wants it , it goes to the dealer if he is required to draw. If none of that takes place the card is burned.

Quote: Deucekies

Take a look at the first post, Babs. This is a rule at that casino, and the pit boss has no discretion over it.

I can't speak to the exact casino the OP was in, but where I play, rules are made to be broken, and if the rule goes against you, IF they want to enforce it, they will, and if they don't, they find a way around it. Dealer error, player error, some irregularity occurs, they have more discretion than they let you know, and stand on the literalness of the rule if they have to/want to rule not in your favor. (Yeah, very convoluted language. Reflects the selective enforcement of the rule. lol...) It's common to quote the rule in a "my hands are tied" way so that you don't resent them ruling against you. It's also common for them to say, "I'll correct it this one time, but the rule is..."

Lots of times there are other factors in play you don't know about, like whether a dealer or floor is on report for too many errors, whether you're so valuable to them that they'll give you a marginal call, whether their immediate boss is tight or a freeroller, the casino's attitude towards being relaxed or letter-of-the-law, all kinds of intangibles.

I should also note that "what comes around goes around" is often in play. If a dealer error results in a win for me, and I point out the error and give them back what I consider tainted money rather than accepting it, I often find that an error that goes against me by the rules falls out in my favor down the road, even when I've seen the same crew go the other way against a different player. In fact, it's funny how often that happens. Not looking to derail with a tangent, but it's pertinent to how the rules are applied and the decision made when something irregular occurs.

Quote: 1BB

Cards in blackjack are never backed up.

UK Rules differ to those in the US. I understand that if it's a simple case of missing one player, then the option to pull back would be given. But in this heads up case, the rule seems quite mandatory at this store. I'm sure there is some discretion, which I've seen exercised when some cards were coming out of the shoe face up.