Rough Night in Reno.

Ugh. Played a total of 10 hours at various SD and DD games on the Reno Strip and bled $900 (standard Reno table rules on these games). I had won just over $2k the week earlier playing various 6D games at a 10-100 spread, and thought I'd try out some 10-50 action, using the the TKO system, which is what I've been using over the course of the past year. I prefer SD and DD whenever possible for obvious reasons.

I just couldn't get anything going. Just kept losing big hands over and over. I'd nail BJs and all kinds of double-downs on the hands in negative counts (when I was at $5/$10), but then would get slaughtered in the positive counts, particularly when doubling on the BB ($100 total for me). I have a lot of faith in my counting game, so I am quite confident that the counts were as I determined them to be.

Don't you hate when that happens though?

Another interesting trend was that the dealers I played against probably hit the BJ at a rate triple to me. It should at least be 1:1! Haha.

Since I was losing, I'm sure that the pits didn't mind that I was playing two spots while in the positive counts. Sometimes this hurt me, but it also saved my butt on many occasions.

I guess it's one of the wacky swings of that game that we know and love. A week ago, I couldn't stop winning. Yesterday night, I was never ever up. I was down a lot, recovered almost to where I was, and then took a bath in the end.

Does anyone have any stories they'd like to share about getting murdered at the tables, days after doing the murdering yourself?

I've got a million stories. Wait until the losing goes on for days, weeks or longer. Ten hours is nothing. May I ask what the penetration was and how many others were at the table?

Hey 1BB,

Penetration varied, but wasn't great...less than 75% in both SD and DD scenarios from what I saw. I know that off-strip at places like the Nugget or Atlantis or Boomtown, it's likely better. I was playing solo against the dealer whenever possible, mainly at CalNeva. For the sake of efficiency, I don't like playing with more than two players, but of course, in Reno on the weekends, that's not always possible. It varied from playing solo to have four other people. When the table filled up, I tended to walk. The action is just too slow. No offense against newer players who are out there trying to learn. I respect that.

The downtown Reno DD games don't allow DAS, which is annoying, but then if you move to the SD games, they are 6:5, which is even more annoying. Mathematically, this may not be right, but in my experience, I feel like no DAS is a bigger loss for me than 6:5. That said, the inventors of 6:5 should be slathered in BBQ sauce and fed to wolves. :)

I have heard some people on the forum say that KO or TKO isn't a great system for SD, and I must say, I haven't had much luck with the SD games. I am surprised that I got absolutely zero heat in spreading to two spots or playing 1:5 spread on SD and DD, and even dropping down to $5 (instead of $10) in the negative counts, but like I said, I was always down and playing catch-up most of the time. I'm sure that if I was reeling off hundreds in wins, the pit critters would have taken a keener interest in me.

During the last two hours of the night, I hit a horrible patch and lost about $500, after recouping almost all of the 1k I had on the table. My transportation was headed out and I had to call it a night, ending it on a pretty sh*tty note.

I can control myself during losses and learned very quickly a year ago what steaming feels and looks like, so I don't go there. But I still need to work on losing and being "ok" with going home down hundreds when you've done everything right and the cards just didn't come out as you might have expected. Nothing's worse than playing for hours and being down, while you're watching some drunk dope randomly throw down big and leave the table up, and you've tracked everything meticulously and leave a loser. Live to fight another day, that is what I tell myself.

Honest question for your more experienced folks out there: if you're playing $10-50 DD or $10-100 6D, what should your bankroll look like? Using the rule of "100x the BB," that would be $5k for the DD and $12.5k for the 6D. Sound about right?

Quote: Amlee

Does anyone have any stories they'd like to share about getting murdered at the tables, days after doing the murdering yourself?

It is part of the game. Sometimes, the negative swing can last for months. In this year, I had three month losing streak in Jan, Feb & March.
Then, I encountered a four month losing streak in April, May, June & July. Basically, I could not win at all in those months. It did not matter where I play and how aggressive I wong-out and spread my bets. It was like a routine that I had to lose at the high count. Therefore, it is very important to have a proper bankroll to survive in those tough times. In addition, you must have the positive attitude to deal with the losses. Winning is easy but not many people can deal with the losses. After July, I slowly dug myself out and climbed back where I was in March.

Amlee,

No DAS adds 0.14% to the house edge while 6:5 adds a whopping 1.39%. Could you increase your spread? Could you go 1-8 on the double deck and 1-16 on the six deck? Is that your trip bankroll or your total bankroll. Either way it seems okay but we don't have to guess anymore because it can be simmed.

Many KO users graduate to UBZII and report noticeable improvement. The best count, it is often said, is the one that you can handle with no mistakes.

Hey 1BB,

I honestly don't really have the bankroll to play 10-80 at DD and 10-160 on 6D. Even if I dropped it to 5:40 and 5:80, I think that that could draw some crazy attention from the Pit.

Where is the best place to learn UBZII? I'd be willing to give it a-go and take a look.

I started with KO in 2013, moved onto Dravot's TKO a few months ago, and play that system pretty flawlessly. It definitely is an improvement over straight KO. The only thing that has flaws of course are the card themselves. :)

Get The Unbalanced Zen2 booklet by George C. It's about $20 and should be online or go to Blackjackinfo and do a search. Qfit.com has the tags for UBZ and other counts on it's site.

I was up at Reno a couple of weeks ago. Went through most of my BR in under two hours. I think I won one hand out of 10.

BigJer,

Yep, that was me, as I bled money for hours on end. Would get slaughtered in the heavily + counts and then would hit BJs on the $10 minimum hand. It's maddening sometimes.

So here's Part II. I returned yesterday and played the majority of the day.

12 hours in total. $10-50 spread on DD games at three casinos, all the same "Reno Rules."

Walked out down $1200. The sad part is I was NEVER up more than $50. The majority of the day was spent trying to recoup, never quite getting there, and then nosediving further and further.

For the sake of sanity and bankroll, I stopped after reaching the aforementioned loss. Once again, I'm using KO with the additions accounting for True Count as put forth by Daniel Dravot (TKO).

The counting is there. I saw all the cards come out at the right time, just to other players or to the dealer (I'd max my bet and get an A, 8; (s)he'd get a A,9). Card just didn't fall my way.

Oh, it's maddening, especially when you watch drunk dudes playing wildly and winning.

Good thing I won over $2k in the Midwest playing 6D in December. Because I lost it all back to Reno in January.

I'm sure the surveillance cameras are watching me and laughing their asses off. They aren't going to back me off when I'm losing. "Go ahead, count away! We welcome your business."

Sad night, guys. I'm heading to Palm Springs for the next three days for work and will be staying away for now.

Quick sidenote: Lifetime, in just under 1.5 years of playing (and I've only gotten better), I'm at -$1130. Hey, it's recoverable but when you're a red-chipper, that number is significant.

Quote: Amlee

Sad night, guys. I'm heading to Palm Springs for the next three days for work and will be staying away for now.

.

We have all had those days. My advise in Palm Springs? Great Beers at the Ace Hotel and more good beer at Schmittys tavern. Oh yea, the casinos suck there. But what do I know?

Quote: Amlee

I'm sure the surveillance cameras are watching me and laughing their asses off. They aren't going to back me off when I'm losing. "Go ahead, count away! We welcome your business."

This is not true. One of my few backoffs happened while I was down a fair amount. About $1200 actually!

I imagine this might be quite hard for you. I have been through the same: multiple dealer blackjacks in a row, pushing twenties, losing tons of money on double downs and splits, etc.

When I first started counting, I lost $2200 over a three week period playing 8D $5-$25 tables for a few hours each day. I was feeling pretty stupid at that point.

Luckily it turned around for me soon after that (I had a mega win which pushed me out of the red on the next trip). but before that happened, i really took those losses to heart. Especially since i was just starting out. i knew about variance. but then again, I really didn't know about variance.

Quote: AcesAndEights

This is not true. One of my few backoffs happened while I was down a fair amount. About $1200 actually!

I've been backed off when losing much more than when winning. It's not close at all. It's the casino's way of twisting the knife. :-)

Quote: 1BB

I've been backed off when losing much more than when winning. It's not close at all. It's the casino's way of twisting the knife. :-)

They're "quitting while ahead".

Quote: 1BB

I've been backed off when losing much more than when winning. It's not close at all. It's the casino's way of twisting the knife. :-)

You'd think that surveillance would be carefully scrutinizing the winning players and ignoring the losing players, but it probably doesn't work like that.

Quote: reno

You'd think that surveillance would be carefully scrutinizing the winning players and ignoring the losing players, but it probably doesn't work like that.

Oh it definitely doesn't work like that. If they believe you're counting, they love giving you the boot when you're down.

p.s. What if this entire thread wasn't about the town Reno, but the poster reno? ::mind blown::

Hello Amlee,

I am a new member to the site, and I am not a counter, but I play solid basic strategy. I was playing at Cal-Neva in Reno, and had a run on a six deck shoe game over a 5 hour period, it seemed that the dealer always had 20, or he made a 5 card 21!! It was my fault because I was playing on the weekend, and there were many people making a huge noise, so the concentration was not there. When everything was said and done I was down about $1,500. Fast forward 2 weeks later, I won a Blackjack tournament first place $2,000! I am sure your game will turn around, and I am very impressed that you know how to count!

Hey Funguy 21,

Congrats on the Blackjack Tourney win.

Despite it's dumpy demeanor, I kind of like the Cal-Neva, even though it has a rep of being sweaty. I was spreading to two spots playing SD and DD when the count was + and no one said anything. Then again, I was never up and left that joint about 500 lighter.

I am very comfortable counting using the KO/TKO system and know all the index plays and deviations as need be. I'm just a bit bummed because it hasn't netted me any serious cash. I know that the Hi-Lo guys and dudes who use more complicated systems would say that KO/TKO isnt as powerful as the other systems and that very well may be true.

I'm going to pull back a little from the actual action and really nerd out on my own study, simulations, and counting practice. I have the skills, the nerves, and the judgment: like many many others, I just don't have a significant bankroll. The $1200 I lost on Sunday was a crushing blow. I'm checked in to Fantasy Springs for three days (here for work) and I'm not even setting foot on the floor. That's like taking a fat kid to McDonald's and telling him that he can't order anything. Ha!

Oh well...such is the counting life. You're gonna take hits sometimes.

Hi Amlee,

Thank you for some insight about counting. Cal-Neva is fine, as long as we leave them some money! I am sure you will hit your stride again, its just frustrating to see our bank roll take that kind of a hit. Most people do not like tournament play, as it takes hours to make it the the money table, but its a nice way to build up the bankroll, I would also check out Boom Town, they have a nice single deck, hand shuffle situation.

Oh dude,

Boomtown is sweet, but it's small and pretty closely surveilled, from what I have surmised. I was playing $5-25 there last summer and was told that I couldn't triple my bet when I tried to raise it from $5 to $15 in the same deck. Hah. I was actually there on Sunday (when I lost $1200 in a day) and left up a measly $50 after about five hours of play. I played 1:3 SD. They have sweet rules for the SD, but I would imagine that any 1:5 spread would get you backed off eventually, especially if you were green-chipping. One of the not-so-nice dealers did the preferential shuffle on me after I rose from $10 to $40 (after I laid down my bet). Ridiculous, but it would have been so awkward and obvious to pull the bet off. But the other players there are nice and it's pretty chill. Boomtown is my jam. Towards the end of my time there, there was a fairly obnoxious gentleman playing $50-100 hands and losing a lot. They were watching him closely and giving him no respect, as he was acting like a jerk.

Also, I lied.

I said I wasn't going to play in Palm Springs when I was here for work the past few days, but I did. Get this: I had 2-3 hours to kill before heading to the airport and I was starving, so I went to Spa Casino, 10 minutes from the airport, ate their buffet (which was rock solid), and signed up for their card, which got me $10 in chips. With the $35 in my pocket, I turned this into $200. Won $165 in about an hour or so.

Played SD with a conservative 1:3 spread.

Of course, this sort of win couldn't have happened on Sunday, when I was losing my ass in Reno, playing $10-50 :(

I had $1500 to play with that day and lost the majority of it (and was never up). Then I f-around at this table with peanuts and win that amount like it was nothing.

The game is like a woman that you're chasing who flirts with you on and off: just maddening, but you keep coming back for more. Individuals with addictive personalities, beware!

Quote: Amlee

Played SD with a conservative 1:3 spread.

Amlee, do you mean DD? Their SD is 6 to 5.

I hear ya on Boom Town being somewhat sweaty, that is why I play Black Jack tournaments now...that way I have a chance of house edge being turned on my opponents, rather than having to play 'cat and mouse' with the ever increasing paranoid bit bosses at various casinos. I suppose that is the 'fun' of it, being able to survive the house edge, but to me its very sad that as time goes on casino in general are making the game of BJ, almost not possible to beat in the long run. Amlee please keep me posted on your journey, as I respect your tenacity! Please let me know if my attitude on the current state of Bj rules for the players is a bit jaded, or completely off base, I am open to a attitude re-adjustment lol

I had gotten called into a hot shoe. Spotter leaves a hand or two after I'm sitting, so I get about 4-4.5 decks to myself playing two hands. On a $2k buy in, I got it to about $7k in the first half of my session, maybe less than half. Almost every hand was a split with a split / double after, a regular double, or a BJ. At least it seemed like it. The second half of the session, I dropped the $7k in chips and another $1500 or so from out of pocket.

Then again, have also had sessions where I'm at -5k and the cards "turn" and I end up +2k.

That's blackjack for you.

I taught my girlfriend to count and she lost on her first 6 trips to Vegas in a row. But after a total of 31trips she's up. I just had my 87th trip to Vegas as a Cardcounter. Yeah, it's not like in the movies. Variance can be brutal.