Fascinating video

The Washington Post today has an article about a card counter who was kicked out of Maryland Live earlier this year. What I found fascinating was the embedded video, showing the interaction with the police, the casino, and the gambler (who really kept his cool).

This has to be false imprisonment... I'm not sure why the casino is allowed to detain you if you are not breaking a law.

Quote: jarvis

The Washington Post today has an article about a card counter who was kicked out of Maryland Live earlier this year. What I found fascinating was the embedded video, showing the interaction with the police, the casino, and the gambler (who really kept his cool).

This has to be false imprisonment... I'm not sure why the casino is allowed to detain you if you are not breaking a law.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/local/wp/2014/10/28/card-counting-cheating-or-civil-right/?hpid=z3

This made be angry just watching it.

I don't know the laws there however the police started saying there was a specific ordinance (is there?). They forced this guy to do something he didn't want to do by threatening to arrest him. The cops seemed like typical unbiased jerks who cant use any logic and make up shit as they go.

I love the cops reasoning for not letting the security cash his chips. I guess they cannot have anyone pre count them, document it and agree on the amount.

it's a guy who could have benefited from this site, assuming the police came after security asked him to come to the backroom

They just wanted to ID him, which in most
places the cops can do. I was very chummy
with the airport police in the 80's because
I ran a business out of there. They told me
if you look suspicious and they ask for your ID,
if you refuse to give it they can and will detain
you to find out who you are.

So the cops in this video, city, county, whatever,
have a right to ask for your ID, just as they
told the guy. You can refuse, and they will detain
you till it's cleared up. This is a free society up
to a point.

Lets say I'm in a restaurant with no shoes on and
refuse to leave. It's not an arrestable offense, but
the cops will ask for ID if they're called and you will
give it to them. One way or another.

Refusing to leave a restaurant is trespassing which is illegal.

Trying to leave a casino but being detained for no reason is illegal. It's illegal for the casino to do, not the person being detained.

The only time you ever have to show ID (legally) is when you're driving. You do not have to show an ID at a casino, a bar, or anywhere else. The private establishment can say "If you don't show us your ID, you have to leave // can't enter", but, the private establishment cannot say, "If you don't show us your ID, you will be arrested." (Well, I suppose they can say whatever they want, but that does not make it so.) There can be laws saying people have to be a certain age to do something (21 to drink, 18 to buy a pack of smokes, etc.), but the store/casino/bar cannot make up a law saying it is mandatory to show ID.

How did he get from the blackjack table to the back room/hallway? He said he was manhandled. Did he mean that he was dragged away from the table to the hallway or is he referring to his escort out the door? I think security was upset because the guy kept his cool. They may have wanted to tune him up.

Quote: RS

Refusing to leave a restaurant is trespassing which is illegal.

Trying to leave a casino but being detained for no reason is illegal. It's illegal for the casino to do, not the person being detained.

The only time you ever have to show ID (legally) is when you're driving. You do not have to show an ID at a casino, a bar, or anywhere else. The private establishment can say "If you don't show us your ID, you have to leave // can't enter", but, the private establishment cannot say, "If you don't show us your ID, you will be arrested." (Well, I suppose they can say whatever they want, but that does not make it so.) There can be laws saying people have to be a certain age to do something (21 to drink, 18 to buy a pack of smokes, etc.), but the store/casino/bar cannot make up a law saying it is mandatory to show ID.

I live in MD..and while I think back rooming this guy was way over the line. The cops in MD do have a right to ask for your ID in virtually any situation. I think if the player in question had shown his ID this whole thing might have gone smoother. The key is the casino isn't asking for his ID at this point, the police are. Now if you want to debate if the police should have been involved in this in the first place, that's a valid argument. But when a cop asks you for ID you really need to show it to him. He has a right to know whom he is dealing with. Having said that.

The fact that this cop (Anne Arundel County MD by the uniform). Thinks there is an ordinance in MD against card counting is a little alarming. More alarming is the fact that he automatically seems to take the side of the casino and enforce their policy as law when in fact they are wrong here. But he has a right to ask for ID from someone he's talking to. This is why even though it's 20 min from my house I don't play MD live. There is some attitude there from staff...this video is an example, that is a little scary.

Quote: RS

The only time you ever have to show ID (legally) is when you're driving.

You're wrong. When I had the bar and called
the cops on somebody who refused to leave,
they always asked him for ID before escorting
him out. So if they got another all an hour later
from another bar, they would know it's the
same guy. The airport cops can ask for ID, as
I said earlier. Most states have some kind of
'require or demand' ID laws. "Seven states (Arizona,
Florida, Indiana, Louisiana, New Mexico, Ohio, and
Vermont) explicitly impose a criminal penalty for
noncompliance with the obligation to identify oneself."

well, there is what is required by your rights, and what the cops are going to do. They can detain you for not showing ID, but they have to let you go at some point. Better get a lawyer of course.

The two youtube videos above...miss the point, and aren't relevant to the situation. The card counter in question is not walking down the street, on public property, minding his own business. He's in a casino...private property, and the police have been called and are asking for his ID, his best bet is to show it.

Again.. should he have been back roomed for card counting...NO.

Should he have showed his ID to a cop who is asking for it...YES.

Is the cop wrong when he implies card counting is illegal...YES

Does the officer still have a right to ask for this guys ID, to obtain his name, age, address, etc. ....YES.

I'm no fan of heavy handed policing. But asking for ID in this situation is within bounds. Period.

1. The cop in the back is a f^&*ing as%^&le. He should lose his job solely based on the condescending way he talks to the guy he is supposed to serve and protect. Even if the cop is stupid enough to believe everything he claimed.

2. Chips are not money. If they send him home without cashing his chips they casino are stealing his money, if only for the time being.

3. If you are ever in this situation, do not sign anything.

4. I hope they guy sues the casino and the cops to oblivion.

5. Question: I understand the cops are required and allowed to ID the guy in this situation. But why the hell are they allowed to just pass on that information to the casino? The counter clearly objected to that, that was the point of the whole argument. Shouldn't there be some oversight over whose personal data the police may pass on to a third party? If a court should find that they guy was indeed illegally detained and there was no grounds for the casino to ask for his ID, the police would have participated in an illegal action.

Quote: vendman1

I live in MD..and while I think back rooming this guy was way over the line. The cops in MD do have a right to ask for your ID in virtually any situation. I think if the player in question had shown his ID this whole thing might have gone smoother. The key is the casino isn't asking for his ID at this point, the police are. Now if you want to debate if the police should have been involved in this in the first place, that's a valid argument. But when a cop asks you for ID you really need to show it to him. He has a right to know whom he is dealing with. Having said that.

The fact that this cop (Anne Arundel County MD by the uniform). Thinks there is an ordinance in MD against card counting is a little alarming. More alarming is the fact that he automatically seems to take the side of the casino and enforce their policy as law when in fact they are wrong here. But he has a right to ask for ID from someone he's talking to. This is why even though it's 20 min from my house I don't play MD live. There is some attitude there from staff...this video is an example, that is a little scary.

Anyone has a right to ask anyone for their ID. That doesn't mean the person has to show ID if asked, when no crime has been committed or legitimate belief a crime had been committed. Because no crime was committed, he should have been free to go. He was being held against his will.

Quote: EvenBob

You're wrong. When I had the bar and called
the cops on somebody who refused to leave,
they always asked him for ID before escorting
him out. So if they got another all an hour later
from another bar, they would know it's the
same guy. The airport cops can ask for ID, as
I said earlier. Most states have some kind of
'require or demand' ID laws. "Seven states (Arizona,
Florida, Indiana, Louisiana, New Mexico, Ohio, and
Vermont) explicitly impose a criminal penalty for
noncompliance with the obligation to identify oneself."

There's a difference between refusing to leave and wanting to leave but being held against your will.

Quote: vendman1

The two youtube videos above...miss the point, and aren't relevant to the situation. The card counter in question is not walking down the street, on public property, minding his own business. He's in a casino...private property, and the police have been called and are asking for his ID, his best bet is to show it.

If you mean ask, then yes, that's true. If you mean demand, then no.

Quote: vendman1

The two youtube videos above...miss the point, and aren't relevant to the situation. The card counter in question is not walking down the street, on public property, minding his own business. He's in a casino...private property, and the police have been called and are asking for his ID, his best bet is to show it.

Again.. should he have been back roomed for card counting...NO.

Should he have showed his ID to a cop who is asking for it...YES.

Is the cop wrong when he implies card counting is illegal...YES

Does the officer still have a right to ask for this guys ID, to obtain his name, age, address, etc. ....YES.

I'm no fan of heavy handed policing. But asking for ID in this situation is within bounds. Period.

So because you are on private property you forfeit your civil/ constitutional rights?

The first video informs that unless the police suspect you of a crime you are not obligated to identify yourself.
The second video demonstrates that premiss.

The counter clearly has an understanding of his rights, But folds his hand to the threats and bullying tactics of the police.

In this instance I would have not Identified myself, They said they were there because he was card counting and that is not a crime.
If there is no crime or suspicion of one you do not have to Identify yourself to law enforcement.
If they chose to arrest me at that point so be it. That's what Lawyers and Law suits are for.

Also are friend was under no obligation to sign anything and failed here too. After his signature he should have written under duress.

You can check out the facts here!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes

The laws are unclear, if counting is illegal the signs should say so. If casinos have the right to ask for your ID it should be written somewhere, otherwise it's pure harassment.

Quote: rainman

So because you are on private property you forfeit your civil/ constitutional rights?

The first video informs that unless the police suspect you of a crime you are not obligated to identify yourself.
The second video demonstrates that premiss.

The counter clearly has an understanding of his rights, But folds his hand to the threats and bullying tactics of the police.

In this instance I would have not Identified myself, They said they were there because he was card counting and that is not a crime.
If there is no crime or suspicion of one you do not have to Identify yourself to law enforcement.
If they chose to arrest me at that point so be it. That's what Lawyers and Law suits are for.

Also are friend was under no obligation to sign anything and failed here too. After his signature he should have written under duress.

1. To a certain extent when you are on private property YES you forfeit some rights. You can't smoke, you can't drink, you can't yell "fire" or scream offensive words. You can do all those things in the privacy of your own home but not always in public. So yes you have rights...but so does society.

2. Agreed he was bullied by police (misinformed police), and the casino. The counter was in the right here. But refusing to show ID is just not that smart. It gains him nothing and they will eventually get his info anyway. It makes him seem as if he has something to hide.

3. No he didn't commit a crime. One of the best(s) way to prove that in the long run...would be to show ID. It shows you are cooperative and have nothing to hide.

4. I hope the casino does get sued. If they kept his chips they absolutely engaged in theft. I was just making a point as to the ID issue. The cops are prepared to arrest/fingerprint/book him. He might have to spend the night in jail until he is cut loose/bailed out. To me even though he is in the right. It's just not worth the headache, for a minor legal principle of showing ID. Which is why he ultimately complied. You say that's what Lawyers are for, agreed, but you have a better case if you are cooperative.

Quote: jarvis

The Washington Post today has an article about a card counter who was kicked out of Maryland Live earlier this year. What I found fascinating was the embedded video, showing the interaction with the police, the casino, and the gambler (who really kept his cool).

This has to be false imprisonment... I'm not sure why the casino is allowed to detain you if you are not breaking a law.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/local/wp/2014/10/28/card-counting-cheating-or-civil-right/?hpid=z3

Been reading the comments in the Wash Post article regarding this situation.
You know the cops involved, MD Live and the counter are checking out the those comments in the Washington Post.
The overall direction of the comments is the cops lied, MD Live detained illegally and stole the guys money.
Hopefully these comments will educate those moron cops to what the law actually is that its not 1984 yet poltitcally, thought crimes are not illegal.

We all already knew the following (quoted from the Article):

Stephen Martino, director of the Maryland State Lottery and Gaming Control Agency, told the Sun that card counting that is done “using intellectual capacity to keep track of cards is not prohibited by state law or regulation.”

So, set aside the ID question for a minute.

Is a casino allowed to hold someone against his will when he hasn't committed a crime ?

- NO, I don't think so.

- I hope the Casino Control commission clarifies that and FINES the Maryland Live casino accordingly.

- I'm not sure the individual, although clearly in the right, would get much of a settlement for the 20 minutes of his time that the casino held him for.

But, where this gets confusing to me is:

Does the Casino, as a privately owned establishment, have a right to ban anyone for any reason they want (except based on ethnicity, religious beliefs, etc) ?

IF they can ban anyone for ANYTHING at their discretion (including card counting), then how can they do that without seeing the person's ID ?

I'll hop on the bandwagon. I've reviewed a lot of different case laws, regulations, etc, about this type of situation as to know how to both handle myself and understand my rights if it happens. First I'll give my thoughts, then I'll give when's been recommended by a lawyer:

Thoughts:
He was illegally detained. Even the casino security guy said they suspected him of being an AP... so no criminal activity what so ever, by their own words.

The police, as usual, were uninformed, and for no reason took the side of the business instead of the individual they swore to protect. They bullied him and pressured him. The police (in a bunch of states - as Bob mentioned) DO have the right to ask anyone for ID, at anytime. HOWEVER, they do NOT have the right to pass that information along. There was a case where the same thing happened. The man told the cop he would only give him his ID so the police could identify him and that he was NOT consenting to giving his information to the casino. The cop handed the ID to the casino and smiled. Well, that cop was then sued out of his ass, as rightfully he should have been.

I'm not sure why they couldn't count the chips out, both sign a piece of paper on the amount, then have security go cash his chips. They have 0 value outside of the casino, which he's not allowed in. Refusing to cash his chips is, in my opinion, the same as stealing his money... Theft.

Recommended (for people whom may come in to the same situation):
- When approached on the floor and asked to come to a back room, etc... Put your chips in your pocket and pull your phone out. Video you stating you would like to leave the establishment and that you will now head directly to the exit. Start heading out the casino. If they put their hands on you AT ALL, do not resits, but just know that they are NOT allowed to do that. State verbally so the video can hear that they are touching you and physically forcing you against your will, and also that you will sue them for their actions. They have no right to tell you to stop recording, so the best thing that could happen (for your law suit) is if you have video of someone ILLEGALLY grabbing your phone out of your hands to turn it off.

- If you are then back roomed... If you can keep videoing, then do so, stating you wish to leave, you did not come back here on your own will, you feel you're being illegally detained, and again that you will sue the casino for their illegal actions.

This is where it's your choice. If you want the best case for your law suit, refuse to give ID. When the cops show up, only give ID to them and tell them you are doing so to identify yourself to an officer, and you do not consent to sharing your information with the casino. If the cop gives them your ID you can then sue the officer directly.

Now, if you just want to leave the casino unharnessed further.. Just give them your ID, let them trespass you, don't sign anything (or sign but then under that write under duress or forcibly signed, etc). Then they should let you go, and you can choose what to do with your illegal detainment (hopefully you choose to sue).

If somehow you have a 1 in a million case with hard ass cops that want to arrest you (even after cooperating and giving your ID) then there's nothing you can do. Let them illegally arrest you, and make your phone call to a lawyer, or to a trusted person whom will get a lawyer on your behalf. You can bail out, or they might just hold you for a night (after all they have no crime to charge you with, so this really shouldn't happen).

***NOTE: This is for U.S. only. I'm not aware of foreign law, nor the corrupt system you'd be dealing with where it would be more worth it to bribe the cops than anything. For more exact law information, of course, contact a lawyer.

Here's another quote from the article referenced in the original post:

Heather Stone, a spokeswoman for the Anne Arundel County state’s attorney’s office, told the Sun that a District Court prosecutor “reviewed the evidence and found it to be insufficient to proceed with criminal charges.”

(From the context of the article, she is referring to criminal charges against the casino).

Her statement is clearly bs. IF it had happened to her, I am sure she would feel differently. Maybe she does feel differently, but she knows who signs her paychecks and that was what she was told to say. I didn't say that she was stupid, just perhaps that her statement doesn't serve the interests of the citizens of Maryland.

So if not enough evidence for CRIMINAL charges, it sure seems like there is plenty of evidence for CIVIL charges.

Quote: JohnnyQ

Here's another quote from the article referenced in the original post:

Heather Stone, a spokeswoman for the Anne Arundel County state’s attorney’s office, told the Sun that a District Court prosecutor “reviewed the evidence and found it to be insufficient to proceed with criminal charges.”

Such BS. Typical, but BS. I mean at one point in the video the guy says "I was forcibly brought back here." and at another point he said "I'm being held against my will."

...What else do you need? lol I hate politicians.

More details in this Article from the Baltimore Sun HERE.

Such as:

Maryland Live, the state's largest casino, declined to discuss its policy on card counters or disclose how many have been banned. Asked about Mills, spokeswoman Carmen Gonzales said in an email: "We do not have a comment, except to say that as a private facility, we reserve the right to refuse service or limit play of any casino customer."

And

Mills "said he was down $2,800 at the time he was escorted off the Maryland Live floor."

Quote: Romes

I'll hop on the bandwagon. I've reviewed a lot of different case laws, regulations, etc, about this type of situation as to know how to both handle myself and understand my rights if it happens. First I'll give my thoughts, then I'll give when's been recommended by a lawyer:

Thoughts:
He was illegally detained. Even the casino security guy said they suspected him of being an AP... so no criminal activity what so ever, by their own words.

The police, as usual, were uninformed, and for no reason took the side of the business instead of the individual they swore to protect. They bullied him and pressured him. The police (in a bunch of states - as Bob mentioned) DO have the right to ask anyone for ID, at anytime. HOWEVER, they do NOT have the right to pass that information along. There was a case where the same thing happened. The man told the cop he would only give him his ID so the police could identify him and that he was NOT consenting to giving his information to the casino. The cop handed the ID to the casino and smiled. Well, that cop was then sued out of his ass, as rightfully he should have been.

I'm not sure why they couldn't count the chips out, both sign a piece of paper on the amount, then have security go cash his chips. They have 0 value outside of the casino, which he's not allowed in. Refusing to cash his chips is, in my opinion, the same as stealing his money... Theft.

Recommended (for people whom may come in to the same situation):
- When approached on the floor and asked to come to a back room, etc... Put your chips in your pocket and pull your phone out. Video you stating you would like to leave the establishment and that you will now head directly to the exit. Start heading out the casino. If they put their hands on you AT ALL, do not resits, but just know that they are NOT allowed to do that. State verbally so the video can hear that they are touching you and physically forcing you against your will, and also that you will sue them for their actions. They have no right to tell you to stop recording, so the best thing that could happen (for your law suit) is if you have video of someone ILLEGALLY grabbing your phone out of your hands to turn it off.

- If you are then back roomed... If you can keep videoing, then do so, stating you wish to leave, you did not come back here on your own will, you feel you're being illegally detained, and again that you will sue the casino for their illegal actions.

This is where it's your choice. If you want the best case for your law suit, refuse to give ID. When the cops show up, only give ID to them and tell them you are doing so to identify yourself to an officer, and you do not consent to sharing your information with the casino. If the cop gives them your ID you can then sue the officer directly.

Now, if you just want to leave the casino unharnessed further.. Just give them your ID, let them trespass you, don't sign anything (or sign but then under that write under duress or forcibly signed, etc). Then they should let you go, and you can choose what to do with your illegal detainment (hopefully you choose to sue).

If somehow you have a 1 in a million case with hard ass cops that want to arrest you (even after cooperating and giving your ID) then there's nothing you can do. Let them illegally arrest you, and make your phone call to a lawyer, or to a trusted person whom will get a lawyer on your behalf. You can bail out, or they might just hold you for a night (after all they have no crime to charge you with, so this really shouldn't happen).

***NOTE: This is for U.S. only. I'm not aware of foreign law, nor the corrupt system you'd be dealing with where it would be more worth it to bribe the cops than anything. For more exact law information, of course, contact a lawyer.

Well reasoned arguments all. I'm interested to see if this guy pursues a civil case.

Quote: JohnnyQ

More details in this Article from the Baltimore Sun HERE.

Such as:

Maryland Live, the state's largest casino, declined to discuss its policy on card counters or disclose how many have been banned. Asked about Mills, spokeswoman Carmen Gonzales said in an email: "We do not have a comment, except to say that as a private facility, we reserve the right to refuse service or limit play of any casino customer."

And

Mills "said he was down $2,800 at the time he was escorted off the Maryland Live floor."

Wow!! He was down $2,800...then they banned him. Bastards.

That's very common.

Quote: 1BB

That's very common.

Oh I know... but they are still Bastards. I still wasn't clear on if they let him cash what remained of his chips or not.

Quote: vendman1

Oh I know... but they are still Bastards. I still wasn't clear on if they let him cash what remained of his chips or not.

They did not, instead telling him to have a friend do it at a later time. I wish there was video of him from the blackjack table to the hallway. That would answer a lot of questions.

Heh, I noticed this in the last article.

Quote:

Maryland's newest casino, Horseshoe Casino Baltimore, which opened in August, is "not opposed to highly skilled players visiting our casino, provided they don't attempt to unfairly disadvantage other guests or collude to impact the integrity of our games," said general manager Chad Barnhill. "While I won't comment on any specific circumstances, I will say that we have a highly trained surveillance team that knows every trick of the trade and keeps a close eye on the gaming floor to ensure that everyone is obeying the rules."

So... interpret that to mean what it says.

Quote: 1BB

They did not, instead telling him to have a friend do it at a later time. I wish there was video of him from the blackjack table to the hallway. That would answer a lot of questions.

There's only hundreds of cameras on the casino floor to that hallway. How much do you want to bet they had some kind of technical malfunction and couldn't get any recordings for a couple hours, during which this happened?

I feel like if a casino, which has this amazing surveillance system, ever says they don't have the footage of something, then it should be regarded as them pleading guilty to whatever they're accused of. These networks have 99%+ up time. It is nothing more than a blatant lie if they claim they don't have the video.

Quote: 1BB

I wish there was video of him from the blackjack table to the hallway. That would answer a lot of questions.

Shazaam !

I grant your wish (it was in the Baltimore Sun article). At one point, it looks like the head of security twists Mr. Mills' arm behind his back, and then clenches his left arm the rest of the way to the Backroom hallway along with a couple of other security staff members in tow. This CLEARLY shows me that he was being taken and detained against his will.

BJ Table to Backroom Video

Quote: JohnnyQ

Shazaam !

I grant your wish (it was in the Baltimore Sun article). At one point, it looks like the head of security twists Mr. Mills' arm behind his back, and then clenches his left arm the rest of the way to the Backroom hallway along with a couple of other security staff members in tow. This CLEARLY shows me that he was being taken and detained against his will.

BJ Table to Backroom Video

I could be wrong but I thought that was the escort out the door.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SHOW ID TO ANYONE EVER EXCEPT A DRIVER LICENSE TO A COP WHEN YOU ARE DRIVING A CAR.

We do not (yet) have to carry papers in this country. It is illegal to drive without a license, thus you must carry a license when you drive. Nominally, the DL is not about establishing identity, it is about establishing that you have the right to drive. When not driving, only some states have laws saying that you must identify yourself to a cop, and even then YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO CARRY ID WITH YOU. You can satisfy any states requirement by simply stating your name and in some cases your date of birth. In some states you need not legally change your name, You can use any name you want at any time unless it is for fraudulent purposes (though changing one's name 2 minutes before encountering a cop might be awful suspect....your mileage may vary).

Have you ever heard of anyone being ticketed or arrested for "failure to produce identification"? No. Driving without a license? Yes. Those cops are absolutely wrong saying that they could arrest the guy for not producing ID. He could simply state his name and possibly DOB.

That said, I am not an attorney and know nothing about MD law but the Wiki article linked earlier seems to support my understanding of the rules.

Quote: 1BB

Quote: JohnnyQ

Shazaam !

I grant your wish (it was in the Baltimore Sun article). At one point, it looks like the head of security twists Mr. Mills' arm behind his back, and then clenches his left arm the rest of the way to the Backroom hallway along with a couple of other security staff members in tow. This CLEARLY shows me that he was being taken and detained against his will.

BJ Table to Backroom Video

I could be wrong but I thought that was the escort out the door.

If you look at the clock on this new video, it precedes the original video.

Quote: 1BB

I could be wrong but I thought that was the escort out the door.

Yeah, that could be. I thought it was the trip to the back room because if the Cops came all the way to get this guy's ID, then they didn't even bother to walk him off the property ? Now that's LAZY.

Got it. We're looking at kidnapping, confining, assault, putting in fear or whatever that state calls it. Those cops need a good talking to. Will any lawyer take this on contingency?

Quote: 1BB

Quote: JohnnyQ

Shazaam !

I grant your wish (it was in the Baltimore Sun article). At one point, it looks like the head of security twists Mr. Mills' arm behind his back, and then clenches his left arm the rest of the way to the Backroom hallway along with a couple of other security staff members in tow. This CLEARLY shows me that he was being taken and detained against his will.

BJ Table to Backroom Video

I could be wrong but I thought that was the escort out the door.

Looks to me like the video ends when they go through the double doors to another carpeted area (still in the casino). Thus, this isn't him leaving. It does indeed look like the backroom video... because it looks like he's protesting stating he wants to just leave and then is grabbed and forcibly taken against his will.

Good lord this video is good as gold to him. I don't see how he doesn't win a huge case against them for their illegal actions between the 2 videos.

Quote: vendman1

The two youtube videos above...miss the point, and aren't relevant to the situation. The card counter in question is not walking down the street, on public property, minding his own business. He's in a casino...private property, and the police have been called and are asking for his ID, his best bet is to show it.

So people should always just do whatever the police say and hope for the best? I wonder how well that worked for innocent people in prison.

Well Maryland Live should be loving all this if they subscribe to the theory that "There's no such thing as bad publicity". I don't.

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2014/10/28/man-kicked-out-of-md-casino-for-counting-cards/

No new news here, just another example of the publicity.

Quote: Brewfangrb

So people should always just do whatever the police say and hope for the best? I wonder how well that worked for innocent people in prison.

Actually, people should analyze situations individually.

People fighting with police in the middle of nowhere may be right every bit of the way as far as violation of rights, but they may more likely get a beat down if no one is around to witness it.

Not the case in this situation, but you should weigh the circumstances to figure out what is going to be in your best interest in different situations, and whether that is the path you want to take.

Quote: Brewfangrb

So people should always just do whatever the police say and hope for the best? I wonder how well that worked for innocent people in prison.

Really you think honoring a reasonable request for ID is "doing whatever the police say and hope for the best"? I can't argue with that logic.

Quote: AxelWolf

This made be angry just watching it.

I don't know the laws there however the police started saying there was a specific ordinance (is there?). They forced this guy to do something he didn't want to do by threatening to arrest him. The cops seemed like typical unbiased jerks who cant use any logic and make up shit as they go.

I love the cops reasoning for not letting the security cash his chips. I guess they cannot have anyone pre count them, document it and agree on the amount.

There may be a specific ordinance prohibiting card counting. And by that I mean corporate by-law for internal casino use. The cop seemed to be implying there was a municipal criminal law. This is either completely untrue, or flagrantly unconstitutional and unenforceable. He likely made it up.

The cops reasoning for not cashing the chips was truly dim-witted. The counter made no false accusations previously, and it would be quite simple to prevent false accusations regarding the value of the chips. The casino is guilty of the tort of conversion (possibly trespass to chattels), regardless of whether he has someone later cash them in or not. The cops aided the casino in breaking yet another law.

The cops had no right to demand his identification, and the counter did not have to produce it. They had no reasonable suspicion of a crime, which is what is required. In this instance, the cop said he had suspicion of a crime (the local ordinance was broken) and that he would be arrested if ID was not produced. Therefore, the counter has a 'color of law' case under USC 1983 against the police department and this officer.

Both parties are guilty of false imprisonment. The casino is additionally guilty of assault and conversion.

I just called their security and asked them if they were the ones on Youtube who illegally detained a card-counter. The guard didn't know...'there are a lot of youtube videos, sir.' I said you don't know if it was you guys, it's kinda famous.

I suggest you all harass them. 443-842-7000

Just tell 'em you're from OSN.

Quote: 1BB

Just tell 'em you're from OSN.

You really liked that OSN thread. Were you a disbeliever?

Not at all. I found it quite interesting.