Leaving a Positive Count
Quote: 1BBQuote: RSMake ploppies your friends early on....or at least, make them kinda like you, "nice hit!", " you saved the table", "nice stand on that one", etc. Hell, I've made people like me when they do obvious plays, ie: stand 16v6, dealer busts, I say "way to stand on that one you saved us all!" even though the player wouldn't have ever even considered hitting.
If you wanna go to 2 hands after dealer busting a few, "wow dealer busted 2 in a row....that can't go on forever...dealer would probably make a hand this time....so I'll change the flow ahead of time" or something.
Or just try to play 2 hands, if they make a ruckus, say you think 2 hands is better and once you lose, (and count is +) then go to 2 hands. Won't cost much in EV (especially if you bet 1x100 instead of 2x75 [the 150% thing]) and makes it easier to get away with.
I love ploppies. They are all my friends. I love them so much that I refuse to use that term to describe them. A lot of people just want to play blackjack without the hassle of learning basic strategy and I'm fine with that. It's still better than playing most slots.
That person sitting next to you could be a brain surgeon, a Nobel Prize winner or who knows what. I have no long term evidence of unskilled players costing me any money.
Oh yeah, they're all friggin brain surgeons. I got followed into the bathroom today and asked for money. When I refused, he acted offended. Ploppies cost me money because I don't split 10s, I delay taking actions at semi-borderline counts--basically what others do to avoid heat, I do to avoid being terrorized.
Quote: beachbumbabsIf you actually trusted the math, your oh-so-skilled (compared to mine, apparently, though you've never played with me) play, and the fact that an unseen card is an unseen card, I don't think "us ploppies" would bother you at all. In fact, if you had the sense to use "us ploppies" as cover, like 1BB and some of the others, you'd benefit both in enjoying playing more (by not having to avoid all the ploppies to get on the game you want) and not tilting when you're at an advantage. And yes, you tilted by my understanding of the word.
But, again, your money, your game. I quit playing BJ more than 20 years ago because of all the bullying garbage that goes on at the table, similar to the misguided women you played with (your racism notwithstanding). If, on occasion, I'm drawn to it by circumstance or friendship, I NEVER make comments about other people's cards or bet structure. I just play my best game, which is BS when I remember to bring the card, and 95%+ BS when I don't (it never occurs to me to split 9's when I should until it's too late, for example). If I stop having fun, I get up. It's as simple as that.
So there I am, Madame LePloppy, providing you opportunities to Wong out, kill small cards and negative counts at my expense, distracting the dealer on occasion, visiting with the PB when he/she comes by, leaving the other people to play their game, shutting down the bullies when they speak up with nonsense, and you don't want to play with me. Your loss.
Babs, I wasn't trying to offend you. I hope you know that.
To refute your points, ploppies are not worth the cover, at least not at my level. The basic concept of what you are saying is plausible, but any one who would want to argue against me cannot deny the following facts. I play heads up when there is an abundance of open tables. Ploppies flock to my table because they don't like playing alone. This wastes my time, especially if there are side bets available. The more I'm left alone, the more money I get in action. I do use them for cover...I leave at negative counts, constantly complaining these idiots won't let me play heads up. Sometimes there are not any open tables, and one ploppy sits down, so I am at the emptiest table. I take a bathroom break, and come back to discover the ploppy waited for me to return! WHAT A WASTE OF MY MOTHER #@#$#@$@# TIME! I promptly color and leave to show my disgust for the superstitious idiot. Ploppies also can spit venom, especially if they are losing; their reasoning often indicates they believed they had an advantage over the house.
Not all ploppies are bad. I have met plenty I get along with fine. I am sure I'd get along with you fine. Ploppies are not a protected class of citizens that one should not stereotype because it is racist. They are merely people who haven't taken 30 minutes to memorize something a 1st grader could do for a weekday homework assignment. And it only goes downhill from there--maybe you didn't feel like it cuz you are spending a max of $50 at $5/hand for fun, maybe you're a degenerate with a system who's excuse for being too lazy for reading the card is that casinos made up basic strategy as a conspiracy.
Sure, ploppies are also tools, as you point out. People generally don't like those they perceive as tools, that's common knowledge. Unless you define tool like you might define tilt, which includes everything and anything, therefore tilt = tool = asteroid.
Quote: RSQuote: 1BBQuote: RSMake ploppies your friends early on....or at least, make them kinda like you, "nice hit!", " you saved the table", "nice stand on that one", etc. Hell, I've made people like me when they do obvious plays, ie: stand 16v6, dealer busts, I say "way to stand on that one you saved us all!" even though the player wouldn't have ever even considered hitting.
If you wanna go to 2 hands after dealer busting a few, "wow dealer busted 2 in a row....that can't go on forever...dealer would probably make a hand this time....so I'll change the flow ahead of time" or something.
Or just try to play 2 hands, if they make a ruckus, say you think 2 hands is better and once you lose, (and count is +) then go to 2 hands. Won't cost much in EV (especially if you bet 1x100 instead of 2x75 [the 150% thing]) and makes it easier to get away with.
I love ploppies. They are all my friends. I love them so much that I refuse to use that term to describe them. A lot of people just want to play blackjack without the hassle of learning basic strategy and I'm fine with that. It's still better than playing most slots.
That person sitting next to you could be a brain surgeon, a Nobel Prize winner or who knows what. I have no long term evidence of unskilled players costing me any money.
Did you mean to quote someone else?
I didn't say they were necessarily bad...just be proactive. Nor did I say they were stupid. You have no evidence ploppies cost you any money. Okay...? I think you meant to quote someone else...but can't tell.
No, I meant to quote you. You said to make ploppies your friends and I was agreeing with you. The rest was for anyone interested in my view on the subject. Sorry for any confusion.
Quote: beachbumbabsIf you actually trusted the math, your oh-so-skilled (compared to mine, apparently, though you've never played with me) play, and the fact that an unseen card is an unseen card, I don't think "us ploppies" would bother you at all. In fact, if you had the sense to use "us ploppies" as cover, like 1BB and some of the others, you'd benefit both in enjoying playing more (by not having to avoid all the ploppies to get on the game you want) and not tilting when you're at an advantage. And yes, you tilted by my understanding of the word.
But, again, your money, your game. I quit playing BJ more than 20 years ago because of all the bullying garbage that goes on at the table, similar to the misguided women you played with (your racism notwithstanding). If, on occasion, I'm drawn to it by circumstance or friendship, I NEVER make comments about other people's cards or bet structure. I just play my best game, which is BS when I remember to bring the card, and 95%+ BS when I don't (it never occurs to me to split 9's when I should until it's too late, for example). If I stop having fun, I get up. It's as simple as that.
So there I am, Madame LePloppy, providing you opportunities to Wong out, kill small cards and negative counts at my expense, distracting the dealer on occasion, visiting with the PB when he/she comes by, leaving the other people to play their game, shutting down the bullies when they speak up with nonsense, and you don't want to play with me. Your loss.
Wow, well said Babs. In blackjack, at some point in your career if you've played the game with any AP mentality at all, we've all come across the issue of ploppies. You hate them at first because you've put hours in to researching the game, understanding the math, practicing, etc, and they're just someone who sits down completely unprepared and they have the balls to try to tell ME how to play? ME? Some genius who's just memorized a system that a 3rd grader could memorize? How dare they! And hey, they're slowing me down! Do you know how much more % in EV I could generate without them?!?! Then we're jealous of them when we see them win from time to time, complaining about luck and how it favors the unskilled... We get in arguments with them, complain to other AP's about them, make fun of them, etc... but still the ploppies continue on.
Eventually, some of us, come to terms that they are what makes the game playable, that they are the one's whom eat the cards when we sit out, they are the one's whom allow us 10-20% advantage scavenger plays, and that they are often our only companions during our long hour business ventures to the casino. Some of us learn from our experiences, adapt, and move forward. These are the people whom leverage the ploppies for BOTH business and the pleasure of having a nice conversation when putting hours in at the table. Hell, I explained in my other thread how counting can be quite a lonely profession. Well here's instant friends, all rooting for the same cause! As 1BB stated, someone might not know basic strategy, but they can still be a very interesting and intelligent person. Others, whom just aren't pass this point, or refuse to use their experiences to grow, won't understand. They can't see pass the "idiot" to their right not hitting their 14 to a dealer 10, or how someone could be superstitious about a card game. These are quite often the same people/AP's who then go home and put on their "lucky" jersey when their favorite sports team plays... I've been stubborn and fought against the grain with a lot in my life, but much like the flow of water, eventually I learned it takes much less time/energy/stress to utilize the natural flow rather than to try to go against it. You can play at my table, anytime =p.
Quote: SonuvabishSure, ploppies are also tools, as you point out.
Tools should be used, not abused.
Quote: SonuvabishBabs, I wasn't trying to offend you. I hope you know that.
To refute your points, ploppies are not worth the cover, at least not at my level. The basic concept of what you are saying is plausible, but any one who would want to argue against me cannot deny the following facts. I play heads up when there is an abundance of open tables. Ploppies flock to my table because they don't like playing alone. This wastes my time, especially if there are side bets available. The more I'm left alone, the more money I get in action. I do use them for cover...I leave at negative counts, constantly complaining these idiots won't let me play heads up. Sometimes there are not any open tables, and one ploppy sits down, so I am at the emptiest table. I take a bathroom break, and come back to discover the ploppy waited for me to return! WHAT A WASTE OF MY MOTHER #@#$#@$@# TIME! I promptly color and leave to show my disgust for the superstitious idiot. Ploppies also can spit venom, especially if they are losing; their reasoning often indicates they believed they had an advantage over the house.
Not all ploppies are bad. I have met plenty I get along with fine. I am sure I'd get along with you fine. Ploppies are not a protected class of citizens that one should not stereotype because it is racist. They are merely people who haven't taken 30 minutes to memorize something a 1st grader could do for a weekday homework assignment. And it only goes downhill from there--maybe you didn't feel like it cuz you are spending a max of $50 at $5/hand for fun, maybe you're a degenerate with a system who's excuse for being too lazy for reading the card is that casinos made up basic strategy as a conspiracy.
Sure, ploppies are also tools, as you point out. People generally don't like those they perceive as tools, that's common knowledge. Unless you define tool like you might define tilt, which includes everything and anything, therefore tilt = tool = asteroid.
Son,
You said, no offense, and I took none. I just thought it would be more interesting reading if I countered your argument with some spirit. Your points above are well-taken, but I can't apologize for bad gambler superstitions; I'd be here all year.
I think it would be a fun career move to partner with a team as the designated ploppy. I do it anyway; bet big enough, for hours at a time, host, property manager, DTG coming by to visit, that the casino wastes a lot of attention on me, while ignoring other people at the table. Why not let someone else get less heat at the same time?
Quote: 1BB
No, I meant to quote you. You said to make ploppies your friends and I was agreeing with you. The rest was for anyone interested in my view on the subject. Sorry for any confusion.
Ah, I was confused indeed.
Quote: RomesWow, well said Babs. In blackjack, at some point in your career if you've played the game with any AP mentality at all, we've all come across the issue of ploppies. You hate them at first because you've put hours in to researching the game, understanding the math, practicing, etc, and they're just someone who sits down completely unprepared and they have the balls to try to tell ME how to play? ME? Some genius who's just memorized a system that a 3rd grader could memorize? How dare they! And hey, they're slowing me down! Do you know how much more % in EV I could generate without them?!?! Then we're jealous of them when we see them win from time to time, complaining about luck and how it favors the unskilled... We get in arguments with them, complain to other AP's about them, make fun of them, etc... but still the ploppies continue on.
Eventually, some of us, come to terms that they are what makes the game playable, that they are the one's whom eat the cards when we sit out, they are the one's whom allow us 10-20% advantage scavenger plays, and that they are often our only companions during our long hour business ventures to the casino. Some of us learn from our experiences, adapt, and move forward. These are the people whom leverage the ploppies for BOTH business and the pleasure of having a nice conversation when putting hours in at the table. Hell, I explained in my other thread how counting can be quite a lonely profession. Well here's instant friends, all rooting for the same cause! As 1BB stated, someone might not know basic strategy, but they can still be a very interesting and intelligent person. Others, whom just aren't pass this point, or refuse to use their experiences to grow, won't understand. They can't see pass the "idiot" to their right not hitting their 14 to a dealer 10, or how someone could be superstitious about a card game. These are quite often the same people/AP's who then go home and put on their "lucky" jersey when their favorite sports team plays... I've been stubborn and fought against the grain with a lot in my life, but much like the flow of water, eventually I learned it takes much less time/energy/stress to utilize the natural flow rather than to try to go against it. You can play at my table, anytime =p.
I hate ploppies. Scavenger plays require you to trust ploppies, and also engage them. I don't trust ploppies. Any ploppy who is smart leaves his common sense in the car, which makes him/her prone to being a dick. 50% of people are of below average intelligence and 50% are above; excluding those exactly average. In a population of casino gamblers, more than 50% are below average. I hate stupid ploppies, and there is greater than 50% chance I am talking to one if I talk to any random patron. Where is another place you find the population is of below average intelligence? Prison.
Quote: DieterTools should be used, not abused.
They should be burned at the stake for superstitious witchcraft. The dealer will bust and you will win your side bet the next hand if I don't split 9s? Sounds like witchcraft to me. And heresy.
Quote: SonuvabishThey should be burned at the stake for superstitious witchcraft.
Their losses are how the house pays your wins. No need to bite the hand that feeds the hand that feeds you.
Quote: DieterTheir losses are how the house pays your wins. No need to bite the hand that feeds the hand that feeds you.
Hands feeding hands? Slots is how they pay for my wins. Taxes are how the government funds all public accommodations. No need to punish stores from selling cigarettes to minors. Seriously, I'm supposed to see an idiot and be thankful there are so many retards and degenerates in the world? That's like getting an inheritance, and being thankful your family is dead.
Quote: SonuvabishSlots is how they pay for my wins.
Yeah, and if the table hold on blackjack drops too low, they'll replace the tables with slots, or drop from 3:2 to 6:5 or worse.
Quote: SonuvabishI'm supposed to see an idiot and be thankful there are so many retards and degenerates in the world?
Yes. The casino exists to collect money from losing players and pay it to winning players. There are two essential parts for the system to continue, and "winning players" isn't either of them.
I don't know if you realize how angry you sound. You might want to work on that.
However, most men play table games. The Sig other plays slots.
Without table games, men don't go to the casino.
Rather, the man will go to a casino that has table games.
If two casinos exist, one has slots and other has slots + table games....which do you think will have more action on slot machines (all else being equal)?
I've seen casinos close their poker room because it wasn't generating enough money (or perhaps it was losing money....whatever). After they closed the poker room, a few weeks later they realized they had much less players playing slot machines. People would come in, ask where the poker room went, learn they got rid of it, and a few minutes later the poker player and his gf/wife would leave to go to the casino down the street which still had a poker room.
It all works together.
However, casino managers/management tend to not be the wisest bunch, getting rid of games (poker room example) that are losing money (or tighten BJ rules) to make more money....without being aware of the consequences.
Less ploppies on a BJ table means less slot players. Slot players = $$$ for casino.
Unfortunately, dealing with ploppies is part of the game. Yes, they suck and I don't like dealing with them either. But, we can't choose who plays and who doesn't play with us. It's just how it is. It ain't changing.
Quote: RSCasino makes most of it's income from slot machines.
However, most men play table games. The Sig other plays slots.
Without table games, men don't go to the casino.
Rather, the man will go to a casino that has table games.
If two casinos exist, one has slots and other has slots + table games....which do you think will have more action on slot machines (all else being equal)?
I've seen casinos close their poker room because it wasn't generating enough money (or perhaps it was losing money....whatever). After they closed the poker room, a few weeks later they realized they had much less players playing slot machines. People would come in, ask where the poker room went, learn they got rid of it, and a few minutes later the poker player and his gf/wife would leave to go to the casino down the street which still had a poker room.
It all works together.
However, casino managers/management tend to not be the wisest bunch, getting rid of games (poker room example) that are losing money (or tighten BJ rules) to make more money....without being aware of the consequences.
Less ploppies on a BJ table means less slot players. Slot players = $$$ for casino.
Unfortunately, dealing with ploppies is part of the game. Yes, they suck and I don't like dealing with them either. But, we can't choose who plays and who doesn't play with us. It's just how it is. It ain't changing.
It's common knowledge that tables draw in slot players. Just not aware if Dieter knows they don't make any substantial profit off of BJ after expenses. Agreed, ploppies suck and it's not changing. Doesn't sound like you're in love with ploppies tho. Nor am I.
Quote: DieterYeah, and if the table hold on blackjack drops too low, they'll replace the tables with slots, or drop from 3:2 to 6:5 or worse.
Yes. The casino exists to collect money from losing players and pay it to winning players. There are two essential parts for the system to continue, and "winning players" isn't either of them.
I don't know if you realize how angry you sound. You might want to work on that.
They won't replace the tables with slots. Then it will become a slot palace, alienating a large portion of it's customer base, and less people will actually play the slots. 6:5 is a bigger problem. But if they could do it, they'd do it already. If people lose too much, they won't play. What you don't seem to notice, or maybe you disagree, is that the ploppy population is increasing, and their collective IQ is lowering; they are becoming progressively embroiled in a lottery mentality and lax with their checkbooks, and therefore more tolerant of 6:5.
Casinos are about as helpful to the world as tobacoo companies. About as powerful too. I do not find ploppies essential. If you do, you must find smokers essential for a variety of reasons. Not a knock on smokers.
I sound angry and I should work on that? I think you're confusing anger with "I HATE ploppies". I guess anger and hate are similar, but since I spelled it out 18 times...you might have noticed. I should work on loving ploppies? Why? To extend that, it seems like you're suggesting if you have kids, you should teach them that no matter what they do in life, they should do it poorly, or at best, sub-par...but remain arrogantly confident the entire time, and they should accept this as proper behavior when everyone else does it too.
Quote: SonuvabishThey won't replace the tables with slots. Then it will become a slot palace, alienating a large portion of it's customer base, and less people will actually play the slots. 6:5 is a bigger problem. But if they could do it, they'd do it already. If people lose too much, they won't play. What you don't seem to notice, or maybe you disagree, is that the ploppy population is increasing, and their collective IQ is lowering; they are becoming progressively stupider and lax with their checkbooks, and therefore more tolerant of 6:5.
Casinos are about as helpful to the world as tobacoo companies. About as powerful too. I do not find ploppies essential. If you do, you must find smokers essential for a variety of reasons. Not a knock on smokers.
I sound angry and I should work on that? I think you're confusing anger with "I HATE ploppies". I guess anger and hate are similar, but since I spelled it out 18 times...you might have noticed. I should work on loving ploppies? Why? To extend that, it seems like you're suggesting if you have kids, you should teach them that no matter what they do in life, they should do it poorly, or at best, sub-par...but remain arrogantly confident the entire time, and they should accept this as proper behavior when everyone else does it too.
Hating them isn't going to fix the problem.
Quote: RSHating them isn't going to fix the problem.
Murder is not the solution.
I'm too good for ploppies. They are like the 3rd class citizens on the Titanic. I don't care what anyone says, I'm not going to associate with those gutter rats! With a little hard work, they can upgrade themselves to second class citizens like Babs, and then they may be allowed to shine my shoes and refuel my automobile.
Quote: SonuvabishIf people lose too much, they won't play. What you don't seem to notice, or maybe you disagree, is that the ploppy population is increasing, and their collective IQ is lowering
There are a lot of people who are purely playing for recreation, and they don't really care if they win or lose. They don't even seem to care if they have a decent chance of winning. There seem to be more every day. Yeah, I get that.
Quote: SonuvabishCasinos are about as helpful to the world as tobacoo companies. About as powerful too. I do not find ploppies essential. If you do, you must find smokers essential for a variety of reasons. Not a knock on smokers.
The tobacco companies would cease to be without smokers. The casinos would cease to be without the ploppies. I don't care if the tobacco companies go under (I've quit smoking before, if necessity required it, I could do it again); I would be annoyed if I didn't have a convenient service for redistributing the casual player's money to my wallet anymore.
Quote: SonuvabishI think you're confusing anger with "I HATE ploppies". I guess anger and hate are similar, but since I spelled it out 18 times...you might have noticed. I should work on loving ploppies? Why?
You could use them to your advantage. Suggestions have been made.
You could just not show your contempt. Since the players you hate are highly desirable for the casino to retain, if your actions alienate them, the casinos may retaliate (no, I'm not sure how, specifically).
At the beginning of the thread, you explained to us how your hate for ploppies was effectively played to deter you from exploiting an advantageous situation. If you didn't hate the ploppies, you might not have walked from the +EV. That alone should be enough reason - some might construe it as a weakness in your game, an opportunity for improvement.
Quote: SonuvabishTo extend that, it seems like you're suggesting if you have kids, you should teach them that no matter what they do in life, they should do it poorly, or at best, sub-par...but remain arrogantly confident the entire time, and they should accept this as proper behavior when everyone else does it too.
I think that's a bit of a leap.
I think it's OK that they're not as good as playing as you are. I think it's OK that they still play. I don't care if it's piano, violin, tee-ball, soccer, or blackjack. They have just as much right to play as you do. You should still play well, as well as you can. If you want to help them with their playing, that's up to you. Helping them improve can be enjoyable and rewarding and satisfying in its own way.
I know that their game doesn't affect mine enough to worry about, even when they don't split their 9's and I lose a big bet because of the way the cards subsequently fell.
Quote: Deucekies
okay, I'm in a blockhead moment. Going to need this one 'splained to me Lucee'
Quote: RaleighCrapsQuote: Deucekies
okay, I'm in a blockhead moment. Going to need this one 'splained to me Lucee'
There's an old saying..."It's like talking to a brick wall!" when it's obvious the other person isn't listening. I thought it was a pictogram of that, updated for the cybersphere, and there's also an old superstition that, if you tell(type) a lie with your fingers crossed, it doesn't count against you in a cosmic/karma way. I could be wrong.
Quote: beachbumbabsQuote: RaleighCrapsokay, I'm in a blockhead moment. Going to need this one 'splained to me Lucee'
There's an old saying..."It's like talking to a brick wall!" when it's obvious the other person isn't listening.
Correctamundo.
Quote: beachbumbabsQuote: RaleighCrapsQuote: Deucekies
okay, I'm in a blockhead moment. Going to need this one 'splained to me Lucee'
There's an old saying..."It's like talking to a brick wall!" when it's obvious the other person isn't listening. I thought it was a pictogram of that, updated for the cybersphere, and there's also an old superstition that, if you tell(type) a lie with your fingers crossed, it doesn't count against you in a cosmic/karma way. I could be wrong.
Ploppies believe in karma. Does that picture represent how no one is grasping that I hate ploppies, or how Jesus says to love all ploppies and I am a sinner? Look at the way he types...only a ploppy would type like that. Der der
Quote: DieterThere are a lot of people who are purely playing for recreation, and they don't really care if they win or lose. They don't even seem to care if they have a decent chance of winning. There seem to be more every day. Yeah, I get that.
The tobacco companies would cease to be without smokers. The casinos would cease to be without the ploppies. I don't care if the tobacco companies go under (I've quit smoking before, if necessity required it, I could do it again); I would be annoyed if I didn't have a convenient service for redistributing the casual player's money to my wallet anymore.
You could use them to your advantage. Suggestions have been made.
You could just not show your contempt. Since the players you hate are highly desirable for the casino to retain, if your actions alienate them, the casinos may retaliate (no, I'm not sure how, specifically).
At the beginning of the thread, you explained to us how your hate for ploppies was effectively played to deter you from exploiting an advantageous situation. If you didn't hate the ploppies, you might not have walked from the +EV. That alone should be enough reason - some might construe it as a weakness in your game, an opportunity for improvement.
I think that's a bit of a leap.
I think it's OK that they're not as good as playing as you are. I think it's OK that they still play. I don't care if it's piano, violin, tee-ball, soccer, or blackjack. They have just as much right to play as you do. You should still play well, as well as you can. If you want to help them with their playing, that's up to you. Helping them improve can be enjoyable and rewarding and satisfying in its own way.
I know that their game doesn't affect mine enough to worry about, even when they don't split their 9's and I lose a big bet because of the way the cards subsequently fell.
You're a ploppy, aren't you? It's the only explanation I have for your pro-ploppy viewpoints. Hating ploppies is not a weakness in my game, and I wasn't on friggin tilt. I don't alienate ploppies, I don't talk to them. Every casino employee hates most ploppies, they just don't know they are called ploppies. Most like me better despite counting, because I'm not an obnoxious retard (ploppy definition). Any individual bettor at low denomination is not highly desirable for the casino to retain--they couldn't care less. My contempt mirrors their own. I am not confrontational, I avoid ploppies.
My original post was asking for thoughts or experiences. Your posts have turned into 'we are the world' and 'it doesn't matter if you are black or white'. I hate ploppies, non-negotiable. You are wrong; ploppies should not have rights, they should be enslaved and beaten like those kids in the Temple of Doom.
Quote: SonuvabishYou're a ploppy, aren't you? It's the only explanation I have for your pro-ploppy viewpoints. Hating ploppies is not a weakness in my game, and I wasn't on friggin tilt. I don't alienate ploppies, I don't talk to them. Every casino employee hates most ploppies, they just don't know they are called ploppies. Most like me better despite counting, because I'm not an obnoxious retard (ploppy definition). Any individual bettor at low denomination is not highly desirable for the casino to retain--they couldn't care less. My contempt mirrors their own. I am not confrontational, I avoid ploppies.
My original post was asking for thoughts or experiences. Your posts have turned into 'we are the world' and 'it doesn't matter if you are black or white'. I hate ploppies, non-negotiable. You are wrong; ploppies should not have rights, they should be enslaved and beaten like those kids in the Temple of Doom.
Glorious. Insults to boot. (Quoting so you can't change it.)
Quote: Sonuvabishor how Jesus says to love all ploppies and I am a sinner?
For the health of "smart" casino players, I think I lean this route.
Slot players are half of the pretax profit on the Vegas Strip (half of the rest is baccarat), 70% in AC, 75% in PA and ~85% in most other jurisdictions I've looked at. And the average return on those slot/video poker games isn't much above 90%. That's also a big hint that VP is a small factor in the slot return since most VP is at least 96%+ theoretical. In smaller markets, table games are "loss leaders" imo.
Quote: tringlomaneFor the health of "smart" casino players, I think I lean this route.
Slot players are half of the pretax profit on the Vegas Strip (half of the rest is baccarat), 70% in AC, 75% in PA and ~85% in most other jurisdictions I've looked at. And the average return on those slot/video poker games isn't much above 90%. That's also a big hint that VP is a small factor in the slot return since most VP is at least 96%+ theoretical. In smaller markets, table games are "loss leaders" imo.
I don't hate slot players; I am completely indifferent since I have minimal contact. They aren't really ploppies since they don't plop down next to me all of a sudden, and have no clue what they are doing. But I do I hate disabled retards with a prison record...isn't that all slot players outside the casino?
Quote: SonuvabishI don't hate slot players; I am completely indifferent since I have minimal contact. They aren't really ploppies since they don't plop down next to me all of a sudden, and have no clue what they are doing.
Fair enough, but the general principle does apply to some small extent. The worse that others play, the more likely game rules stay more liberal for yourself.
Quote: tringlomaneFair enough, but the general principle does apply to some small extent. The worse that others play, the more likely game rules stay more liberal for yourself.
Disagree. The geographic location (ie. neighboring population) has a lot more to do with rules. A casino that makes almost no money is MORE likely to have better rules. It doesn't matter how bad they play, it matters how much they play. If there is one casino in an entire state, located in a major metropolitan area, and it has the worst players in the world--the rules will be horrible. The less ploppies play, the better the rules. The more they play, the more 6:5 there is cuz they are stupid. The casino always maximizes its profit...it doesn't go, oh we are making a lot of money, we can make the rules better for our players. It says, oh we aren't making enough money, better make our rules better to increase volume. When it reaches capacity, rules tank.
Quote: SonuvabishMy original post was asking for thoughts or experiences. Your posts have turned into 'we are the world' and 'it doesn't matter if you are black or white'.
Very well.
Thoughts:
Despite your hatred of ploppies, you sat down at a table with two of them.
Despite your claim that you "don't do -EV things like that", you walked away from a positive count because the ploppies you sat down with were unpleasant, a move that you admit was -EV.
I think that if you didn't let the ploppies get to you, your game would be stronger. I think a useful strategy for that would be to stop hating them. I think that if you know they might get to you, you shouldn't sit down at a table with them. I think that you could easily come up with some fallacious "logic" that will satisfy ploppy superstition and defuse or redirect their concerns. I think that if you really could have played correctly (you're an AP, not a degenerate, after all), you shouldn't have left the table. I think maybe you should look for a reserved table.
You said that you gave up $6 (+/- $300); hopefully you derived at least $6 (+/- $300) of satisfaction from pissing off a couple of civilians.
May the cards fall in your favor, and the ploppies leave you in peace.
Quote: DieterVery well.
Thoughts:
Despite your hatred of ploppies, you sat down at a table with two of them.
Despite your claim that you "don't do -EV things like that", you walked away from a positive count because the ploppies you sat down with were unpleasant, a move that you admit was -EV.
I think that if you didn't let the ploppies get to you, your game would be stronger. I think a useful strategy for that would be to stop hating them. I think that if you know they might get to you, you shouldn't sit down at a table with them. I think that you could easily come up with some fallacious "logic" that will satisfy ploppy superstition and defuse or redirect their concerns. I think that if you really could have played correctly (you're an AP, not a degenerate, after all), you shouldn't have left the table. I think maybe you should look for a reserved table.
You said that you gave up $6 (+/- $300); hopefully you derived at least $6 (+/- $300) of satisfaction from pissing off a couple of civilians.
May the cards fall in your favor, and the ploppies leave you in peace.
Why would you link to my posts? Everyone would be able to see they are taken out context. Sometimes I have to sit next to ploppies since I cannot force them to leave the property and I would like to play. I thought this was a given. If it was not clear, the Asian ploppy hit a nerve.
'-EV things like that' referred to playing hands incorrectly like a ploppy. Ploppies don't knowingly walk away from any count, positive or negative. Actually, I don't admit it was -EV to walk away. I lost nothing. It was 0. Is it +EV to not play in a negative count? Why does EV change while in a constant state of inaction? People who take theory too far don't make any sense.
Maybe I gave you the impression I frequently leave positive counts. This was a freak occurrence. Six theoretical dollars is nothing. I just wanted to gauge people's thoughts. The consensus seems to be, if I am understanding correctly, that walking off is not condoned under normal circumstances...but ploppies do suck, so it's not the law or anything. I thought it would be a little more lax than that. I was wrong. But you are like the Ploppy Defense League.
My game would not be stronger if I loved ploppies. I don't even see how that makes sense. Hatred of ploppies saves me time and allows me to get more money in play at high counts. Scavenger plays may work for some, but I don't see a viable edge because you have to trust them not to scam you. There is no reasoning with ploppies, they are devoid of logic. I might as well just tell them why I'm doing what I'm doing, that would sound just as odd as anything I might invent; they will always disagree if it isn't what they'd do. I play low limit and spread high. That is the nature of my game. I don't get reserved tables.
Yes, my satisfaction of pissing them off was greater than -$294. I would have paid $100 to watch them lose everything they owned, call the gambling hotline whose number is posted, just so they could ask for the number to the suicide hotline.
Thank you for your wishes. Same to you.
Let's say, theoretically, you always walked away from every +EV count. It doesn't take a mathmetician to figure out that's a -EV game plan. Now, let's say you only walked away from a +EV situation -- was walking away -EV or was it neutral (EV = 0)?
Quote: SonuvabishHatred of ploppies saves me time and allows me to get more money in play at high counts.
I really don't understand how.
Quote: SonuvabishI would have paid $100 to watch them lose everything they owned,
That doesn't sound like an AP play.
Quote: SonuvabishMaybe I gave you the impression I frequently leave positive counts. This was a freak occurrence.
So if it happened once, what keeps it from happening again?
If you don't know how don't-pass / don't-come bets work:
Essentially, you place the bet. If the next number is 2 or 3, you win. If it's a 7 or 11, you lose. If it's a 12, it's a push/tie. Any other number (4,5,6,8,9,10), the bet you made is now betting against that number. If that number rolls, you lose. If a 7 rolls before that number, you win.
Oftentimes, you'll see a don't-pass player say "no action on the 6 or 8", which means, if a 6 or 8 is rolled, he doesn't want to take the action (betting a 7 will roll before a 6 or 8, whichever is the point).
The bet has -EV on the come-out roll (8 ways to lose [6 ways on 7, 2 ways on 11], and 3 ways to win [1 way on 2, and 2 ways on 3]. After a point is established, that bet now has +EV, since there are more ways to roll a 7 than there are to roll that number (ie: six ways for a 7 to roll, only four ways to roll a 5). Taking the bet down (which is permitted) after the point is established is -EV.
It's the same way (kinda) with counting cards. You play all those -EV rounds, just waiting for a +EV situation. If you leave when there's a positive situation (+EV count or point is established on you're on the don't-pass)......then that play is -EV !
Quote: RSIt's -EV to walk from a positive (+EV) count. Are you seriously trying to claim it isn't -EV?
Let's say, theoretically, you always walked away from every +EV count. It doesn't take a mathmetician to figure out that's a -EV game plan. Now, let's say you only walked away from a +EV situation -- was walking away -EV or was it neutral (EV = 0)?
Two guys back counting two different tables. One decides not to enter a negative count, you say that's +EV. Another decides not to enter a positive count, you say that's -EV. Both are doing the exact same thing, which is nothing. You are seriously claiming -EV is true for one, but not the other?
I'm not big on EV when it goes further than how to play your hand correctly. I think it is idiotic to track EV like some people do; actual results are what matter in real life. That being said, it would have been +EV for me to play. The expected value of not playing is always 0. If you say it is negative, then the expected value of me playing in said positive count is 0. Maybe it does take a mathematician.
Quote: DieterI really don't understand how.
I clearly explained how. I am 100% convinced you are a ploppy from this statement.
Quote: Dieter
That doesn't sound like an AP play.
Neither is seeing a movie or buying shampoo. I take it you don't wash?
Quote: Dieter
So if it happened once, what keeps it from happening again?
Um you're right...I should probably also stop driving a car until someone figures out how to prevent all accidents.
Quote: DeucekiesSonuvabish would have just loved this guy I dealt to yesterday. He was very vocally against basic strategy, and his number one strategy was to take insurance whenever it was offered to him. Despite the fact that I did not see him win one insurance bet the whole night, he was on his soapbox all night about how he loved insurance, it's not a sucker bet, and even trying to corral other players into taking it as well. He even tried to take it when I had a face card showing. I wonder what Sonuvabish would have said to him.
I probably would have said I hope he gets hit by a car in the parking garage. If he was really stupid, and did stuff like hit 15s v. 3, I woulda told him 'hey, you're supposed to double that.' And then laughed maniacally when he lost, as others cast uneasy looks in my direction.
Quote: RSAre you familiar with craps? The don't-pass and don't-come?
If you don't know how don't-pass / don't-come bets work:
Essentially, you place the bet. If the next number is 2 or 3, you win. If it's a 7 or 11, you lose. If it's a 12, it's a push/tie. Any other number (4,5,6,8,9,10), the bet you made is now betting against that number. If that number rolls, you lose. If a 7 rolls before that number, you win.
Oftentimes, you'll see a don't-pass player say "no action on the 6 or 8", which means, if a 6 or 8 is rolled, he doesn't want to take the action (betting a 7 will roll before a 6 or 8, whichever is the point).
The bet has -EV on the come-out roll (8 ways to lose [6 ways on 7, 2 ways on 11], and 3 ways to win [1 way on 2, and 2 ways on 3]. After a point is established, that bet now has +EV, since there are more ways to roll a 7 than there are to roll that number (ie: six ways for a 7 to roll, only four ways to roll a 5). Taking the bet down (which is permitted) after the point is established is -EV.
It's the same way (kinda) with counting cards. You play all those -EV rounds, just waiting for a +EV situation. If you leave when there's a positive situation (+EV count or point is established on you're on the don't-pass)......then that play is -EV !
In dice, which I never play, you presumably have other bets on the table when you take that bet off...so you would be making a -EV decision. In the card counting example, your own words show the problem. There is no play. Maybe we differ on the definition of a play, whereas I think a play means you actually must play, and you think play=tilt=asteroid.
Quote: RSYou need help.
ok
Quote: SonuvabishI clearly explained how. I am 100% convinced you are a ploppy from this statement.
Putting more money on the spot when the count is favorable has absolutely nothing to do with hating ploppies.
Quote: SonuvabishNeither is seeing a movie or buying shampoo. I take it you don't wash?
Hygiene has a tangible benefit. Movies (supposedly) provide entertainment. Paying $100 to watch someone ruin their life seems cruel.
Quote: SonuvabishUm you're right...I should probably also stop driving a car until someone figures out how to prevent all accidents.
More like after you crashed a car, you should figure out why you crashed the car and change your manner of action to avoid crashing in the future.
This didn't happen to you; you did it to yourself.
