Would someone help me to understand player rating in the low stakes UK casino environment.

As subject really. I'd really like to understand what is measured or rated when I play. Put this in the context of a provincial UK casino with just a couple of roulette tables, three blackjack tables, a poker lounge and a few dozen slots. This isn't Vegas by a long stretch of imagination. It is part of a multinational chain.

I play low stakes of £2 to maybe £25 or so at a quiet time with typical buy in being £60 a couple or three times. At the same table, there are typically players paying £25 to £100 a hand in £5 or £25 chips, buying in in more frequent but broadly similar amounts.... So it's no big deal, and scrutiny seems very casual indeed. Judging from the silly play and use of sidebets, I doubt that it's proper card counter territory. I also reckon that if I was counting in any organised way or wide bet spreading, I'd stand out like a sore thumb. It's really just practice counting at the moment. When I enter the casino, my card is scanned in and when I buy in at the table, it's scanned and I seem to be 'logged on' for the duration of my few hours play. I figure that my freebie bonuses will be based on my visit frequency and my buy in size and frequency. If I leave a table, I don't seem to be logged off unless I'm gone several minutes and if so I have my card scanned again. There's no card scanning when I cash out, so they have no obvious way of knowing what I win or lose, though it's peanuts anyway.

So. I can understand that the table knows what my buy in has been and I suppose there could be an estimation of my average bet. It's just making me curious. I've seen that on the dealers little screen, there are markers for rating for each box, in the form of dots extending out from a semicircle, sort of like a 'unrated, 1, 2, 3' dot score. But dealer only seems to make any entry on the system when I buy in. He cannot know much at that time. This week, the card reader had malfunctioned and then got fixed and the player next to me asked to have his card logged in to record his earlier buy in. The dealer asked him what his buy in had been and I joked, "tell him it was £10,000 and maybe you'll get more bonuses". The dealer responded that rating and bonuses weren't about buy in but were based on average bet. But that didn't make sense to me since there didn't seem to be any mechanism for recording that.

So can anyone please explain how, and to what extent I'm being rated. If I were to start wildly varying my bet, which I don't, would the dealer or supervisor revisit the screen and make some sort of entry against me? Maybe that is being done at the central monitor station which is in the middle of the floor. So far, I'm just a min stakes recreational player conspicuously burning a few hours a week and spending as much time chatting and joking with the dealers and fellow players as playing. That's an image I hope to enjoy as I learn to take their chips. How will I know when they start taking interest in me and when should I start to care? Do you reckon there are thresholds and red flag events that I should avoid such as playing with multiple £25* chips instead of pathetic little piles of £1s?

I do realise that I'm mixing up the concept of getting rated for bonuses (good) with being identified as a potential high rolling risky prospect (counter) to the casino.

* £25 chip seems max denomination in use: It's that provincial :o)

Thanks in advance.

In Vegas they keep track of your average bet (it's an estimate) and your time played. This is multiplied by some game-specific factor to determine your theo (expected loss -- "theoretical win" in casino terms). I'm not sure how it works in the UK, but I assume that it is similar.

For example, suppose that they assume that blackjack has a 1% theo. Suppose that they assume that they deal 60 hands per hour on average. You may notice that the floor supervisor occasionally looks at your bet and writes something down. This is your bet amount. When you leave he will look at his notes and try to guess at an average bet. Suppose that, from your play, he guesses that your average bet was $10.

So, if you play for 2 hours, you will be rated at 2 hours of blackjack at $10. 60 hands / hr * 2 hours * $10 per hand is $1200 in action. At 1% theo, that is $12 in theo. In Vegas the industry standard is comp back about 30% of theo, so you might get $3 or $4 in comps.

They will also write down how much you buy in for and how much you cash out for. This can also affect comps. For example, suppose you play for $100/hand for 4 hours/day, over 2 days. So, that is 8 * 60 * $100 = $48k in action, or $480 in theo. You would normally get $140 or so in comps. That might get you a comped room for the 2 nights you were there, and an extra $40 in room charges. (the hotel might only charge the casino $50/night for the room, even if they would charge you $100).

But, suppose that you lost $10,000 on that trip. When you go see your host at the end of your trip, she will see that you lost much more than the theo. So, she might give you more in comps -- possibly quite a bit more. She might take care of $500 in room charges, just based on your loss. It varies from place to place, but they can generally go up to 5% of your loss with no problems, even if you would be "overcomped" based on your theo. They want you to be happy and come back (rather than be upset about your large loss) so they will happily take care of your charges, and maybe even get you a limo to the airport.

As far as red flags for counting, that really depends on the casino. At some places you can bet several thousand per hand and no one will bat an eye. At others you will get watched closely if you bet $25. It's all about how much money they can afford to lose. It also depends on your skill level vs theirs. If you know what you are doing and they don't, they can watch you as closely as they want and will not be able to figure out your play. On the other hand if you are playing by the book and they understand the game even a little bit they will know what you are up to before the first shoe is done.

I prefer to bet large-denomination chips rather than a large stack of small chips because I think it's less obvious. An exception would be at any place where the dealers must call out when large denom chips are being bet, or payed out. Sometimes they will only do it the first time; other times they will do it any time. But it also depends on the skill of the pit. I remember one time, at a local casino, a dealer called out "10 black out!" as I won a doubled $500 bet. The floor looked at my bet, then at the card where she wrote down my ratings, then back at my bet with this puzzled look. I could see the gears turning in her brain... she was thinking "weren't you just betting $25"? Then she shrugged slightly and wandered over to talk to a regular about her kids or something. Not her money, after all. I love playing at that place.

Thank you AOC. Comps here comprise the soft drinks and occasional £5 match bet tickets. Since it doesn't cater to holidaymakers, mostly local business types and retired folk, there's not much to give away beyond that. No hosts as far as I can tell.
I'll keep observing and keep friendly with the dealers and waitresses.

Quote: OnceDear

Thank you AOC. Comps here comprise the soft drinks and occasional £5 match bet tickets. Since it doesn't cater to holidaymakers, mostly local business types and retired folk, there's not much to give away beyond that. No hosts as far as I can tell.
I'll keep observing and keep friendly with the dealers and waitresses.

In that case I don't see why the rating matters. Will they mail you better match play coupons if you play more?

I wouldn't worry too much about it. What is the max bet at the table?

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

In Vegas they keep track of your average bet (it's an estimate) and your time played. This is multiplied by some game-specific factor to determine your theo (expected loss -- "theoretical win" in casino terms). I'm not sure how it works in the UK, but I assume that it is similar.


So, if you play for 2 hours, you will be rated at 2 hours of blackjack at $10. 60 hands / hr * 2 hours * $10 per hand is $1200 in action. At 1% theo, that is $12 in theo. In Vegas the industry standard is comp back about 30% of theo, so you might get $3 or $4 in comps.

They will also write down how much you buy in for and how much you cash out for. This can also affect comps. For example, suppose you play for $100/hand for 4 hours/day, over 2 days. So, that is 8 * 60 * $100 = $48k in action, or $480 in theo. You would normally get $140 or so in comps. That might get you a comped room for the 2 nights you were there, and an extra $40 in room charges. (the hotel might only charge the casino $50/night for the room, even if they would charge you $100).

But, suppose that you lost $10,000 on that trip. When you go see your host at the end of your trip, she will see that you lost much more than the theo. So, she might give you more in comps -- possibly quite a bit more. She might take care of $500 in room charges, just based on your loss. It varies from place to place, but they can generally go up to 5% of your loss with no problems, even if you would be "overcomped" based on your theo. They want you to be happy and come back (rather than be upset about your large loss) so they will happily take care of your charges, and maybe even get you a limo to the airport.

Is it 30%, I have heard 40% is the average from some people?
And my other question is buy-ins? You mention that they record precise amounts of all buy-ins when you are rated. I have always noticed this and have been curious. Do they base any comps off of buy ins. In your example, if somebody bought in for 1k and somebody else bought in for 5k and played the exact same bets and amount of time. Would the host give the person who bought in for more larger comps since he would assume they have more to lose? Or do they strictly record buyins for their own interest and to see how much you walk away with?

Quote: Gandler

Is it 30%, I have heard 40% is the average from some people?
And my other question is buy-ins? You mention that they record precise amounts of all buy-ins when you are rated. I have always noticed this and have been curious. Do they base any comps off of buy ins. In your example, if somebody bought in for 1k and somebody else bought in for 5k and played the exact same bets and amount of time. Would the host give the person who bought in for more larger comps since he would assume they have more to lose? Or do they strictly record buyins for their own interest and to see how much you walk away with?

I think that the standard has dropped from 40% to 30%. Different properties may be different. In the end if they are desperate for your play they will pay more for it -- it's supply and demand.

As I said, they do not base comps off your buy-ins but they may base comps off your losses. If you generate $500 in theo but lose $10k your host will likely be much more generous than if you generate $500 in theo and break even.

Also, they will send you a win-loss statement if you request it. For MGM properties, you can get it on the m-life website (updated as soon as it goes into the system -- no need to wait for the end of the year. ie, you can see your YTD totals right now, broken down by casino, and slots vs table games.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I think that the standard has dropped from 40% to 30%. Different properties may be different. In the end if they are desperate for your play they will pay more for it -- it's supply and demand.

As I said, they do not base comps off your buy-ins but they may base comps off your losses. If you generate $500 in theo but lose $10k your host will likely be much more generous than if you generate $500 in theo and break even.

Also, they will send you a win-loss statement if you request it. For MGM properties, you can get it on the m-life website (updated as soon as it goes into the system -- no need to wait for the end of the year. ie, you can see your YTD totals right now, broken down by casino, and slots vs table games.

Ok thanks that makes sense then, I didn't even think about the win/loss statements but I guess it makes sense they need to know the amounts for that.

Quote: OnceDear

It is part of a multinational chain.

Expect that if your player's card works at other locations of this multinational chain, the other locations can read any notes that this house makes on your account.

I know that one casino (chain) I play at makes note of (1) duration of play, (2) average bet, (3) skill level, (4) buy-in amount (including rebuys), and (5) cash-out amount. I expect that the skill level is used to reduce "theo" and comp rate.

I have found that slipping away without coloring up means that the floor doesn't log me out right away, meaning slightly longer duration for comp accrual. (Comps seem to be based on bet size * (1-skill) * duration of play.)

Quote: OnceDear

would the dealer or supervisor revisit the screen and make some sort of entry against me?

Maybe, maybe not. How clueless are they? Are you reducing their hold significantly vs expectation?

Quote: Dieter

Expect that if your player's card works at other locations of this multinational chain, the other locations can read any notes that this house makes on your account.

I know that one casino (chain) I play at makes note of (1) duration of play, (2) average bet, (3) skill level, (4) buy-in amount (including rebuys), and (5) cash-out amount. I expect that the skill level is used to reduce "theo" and comp rate.

I have found that slipping away without coloring up means that the floor doesn't log me out right away, meaning slightly longer duration for comp accrual. (Comps seem to be based on bet size * (1-skill) * duration of play.)

I have heard that the do rate people on skill. I have also read that they rate 99+% of people as "average".

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I have heard that the do rate people on skill. I have also read that they rate 99+% of people as "average".

I wonder if that means that I should stop doing chip tricks on the table. I generally do them to keep myself occupied while they shuffle. I know tricks doesn't mean that you know what you are doing but it may give the appearance that you do.

There is a chip manufacturer that puts some kind of wireless ID in their chips to identify the value. Before each hand, a dealer would tap a button on the side of the table to register the bets from a built-in sensor installed under the bet position.

The casino I go to uninstalled the sensors after 5 years. From chatting with the dealers and pit bosses, they say that the sensors always seems to be broken, and not record accurately when working.

I am not sure if that applies, here--I assume OP would have noticed seeing the dealer hit a button before each hand is obvious in this case.

I hear free alcohol is an American casino thing--Canada, Europe, and Macau do not give much of any freebies? So, if no alcohol in UK, what do you guys get for earning points or playing from one place to another?

Quote: KitKat

There is a chip manufacturer that puts some kind of wireless ID ....

I suspect there is something like an rfid chip within each chip, maybe something similar to what's in car ignition keys.?

Quote: KitKat

I hear free alcohol is an American casino thing--Canada, Europe, and Macau do not give much of any freebies? So, if no alcohol in UK, what do you guys get for earning points or playing from one place to another?

Gentings and Grosvenor only seem to give free tea, coffee or soft drinks at the table though I may be wrong.

At Gentings, my card accumulates a few points which are redeemed at a card reading station for occasional match bet tickets of about £5 a time. At Grosvenor, I get given occasional match bets on entry. I understand that if i get enough points, they may email me meal vouchers but I've not had any yet.