The dealer acts without my command -.-
The count was +7. I had hard 20 vs dealer 6, and before I was thinking of how I need to act to successfully split that 20 without arousing suspicion, the dealer didn't even wait for my command and just proceeded with flipping her down card over and dealing herself to bust. And i was thinking wtf!! I was going to split that ($100 hand) and since you would have busted, I would have gained an extra $100.
I seriously thought about calling the floor over for that, but realized that would end my blackjack at that casino, so I stayed quiet and sucked up my losses.
Was that the right thing to do?
In the future, though, you may want to let the dealer be aware that you may do some odd plays. If the dealer (tries to) skip[s] over you early in the session, say something like, "Hold on, I'm not sure what I want to do"....even if you were going to stand anyway. Play in a way that requires hand-signals, instead of dealer intuition. For example, you're dealt 14v2, don't immediately wave it off. Wait a couple seconds. If you're on auto-pilot, he'll be on auto-pilot too. You don't want that.
Quote: NeutrinoThis may have happened before, but this is the first time I noticed it happening and I was quite pissed.
The count was +7. I had hard 20 vs dealer 6, and before I was thinking of how I need to act to successfully split that 20 without arousing suspicion, the dealer didn't even wait for my command and just proceeded with flipping her down card over and dealing herself to bust. And i was thinking wtf!! I was going to split that ($100 hand) and since you would have busted, I would have gained an extra $100.
I seriously thought about calling the floor over for that, but realized that would end my blackjack at that casino, so I stayed quiet and sucked up my losses.
Was that the right thing to do?
I don't know. But that frequently happens to me and others, dealers often assume people will just stay with 20 (which I often would anyway), but they should still wait for your signal.
But to other players splitting 10s will make you look like an idiot and to the house it will make you look like a counter (especially if it is obvious you know basic strategy and are playing otherwise perfectly and winning). So making a big deal of it could draw a lot of negative attention from both sides.
But calling the floor probably would be right in the sense that the dealer did not give you a chance to make up your mind. However, it may also draw unwanted attention, so I guess it depends on the profile you wanted to keep or not keep....
Quote: NeutrinoI seriously thought about calling the floor over for that, but realized that would end my blackjack at that casino, so I stayed quiet and sucked up my losses.
Was that the right thing to do?
No. Not only would it have set off a big red flag for being a counter, but it is annoying to recreational players when the dealer needs a signal for obvious hands.
Splitting was the right play there, but just marginally at +7. However, an automatic win is better than splitting, so all's well that ends well.
Save your energy to complain about important things.
How do you know she would have busted?Quote: NeutrinoThis may have happened before, but this is the first time I noticed it happening and I was quite pissed.
The count was +7. I had hard 20 vs dealer 6, and before I was thinking of how I need to act to successfully split that 20 without arousing suspicion, the dealer didn't even wait for my command and just proceeded with flipping her down card over and dealing herself to bust. And i was thinking wtf!! I was going to split that ($100 hand) and since , I would have gained an extra $100.
I seriously thought about calling the floor over for that, but realized that would end my blackjack at that casino, so I stayed quiet and sucked up my losses.
Was that the right thing to do?
Agree.Quote: WizardSave your energy to complain about important things.
And use your time and energy to improve your skills and speed in such a manner that it won't happen again or else tell them you are a counter and see what happens.
Call the floor if need be. You have a right to play screwy. The floor should vigorously defend your right to play badly.
Splitting 10's is a tougher case to make for "wait for my signal".
Quote: DieterEspecially if they hit your 3 card 8 to make 18, and then draw a 3 on their 16. ("I didn't signal for that hit, and you would have broke if I stood!")
Call the floor if need be.
You gotta be kidding.
If I don't signal for a hit, I shouldn't get a card. If I don't wave off, my turn shouldn't be over.
It's my right to stand on 8. If the dealer hit my hand without my signal, and then drew to a win, I think that's a valid basis for complaint.
I think it's probably less likely to draw heat than complaining about not being able to split tens.
Quote: DieterIt is absolutely my right to make decisions on how to play my hand. I placed the bet, I bought the right to decide how it is played. Period.
If I don't signal for a hit, I shouldn't get a card. If I don't wave off, my turn shouldn't be over.
It's my right to stand on 8. If the dealer hit my hand without my signal, and then drew to a win, I think that's a valid basis for complaint.
I think it's probably less likely to draw heat than complaining about not being able to split tens.
It is your right to play your hand as you see fit. But, this argument is NOT going to fall on sympathetic ears, nor are you going to win the argument, because it is such a ridiculous scenario...no one in their right mind stands on a hard 8. When you attempt to say something like that after the fact, it looks like you are a 'taking a shot'. If a player did actually stand on a hard 8 prior to the play, it could signal that you knew the next card or the dealer hole card.
You would have a much better chance of making your case if the dealer did something like skipped over your soft 18 vs the dealer 10 and then turned over a 6 and hit, drawing a 3, because many players and basic strategy is to hit that soft 18.
The fundamental problem is that the dealer made a decision on a player's hand, instead of the player making the decision.
If you want to be able to split those 20's, you may have to make a point of standing on 5 once so that the floor instructs the dealer to wait for the signal, every time, no matter how stupid you are being.
I've done it, and I found it effective.
Quote: DieterIt's my right to stand on 8. If the dealer hit my hand without my signal, and then drew to a win, I think that's a valid basis for complaint.
I have a different opinion. If you had a three-card eight and the dealer automatically gave you a card, you end up losing, and then file a complaint saying you wanted to stand, I submit that most casinos would view you as a "shot taker." They would probably let you get away with it once, but if you tried it again you'd probably be backed off or trespassed.
One thing I learned at the Venetian was how often they saw such shot takers and what a short fuse they had for them. On this matter, I am completely on the casino side. The dealer should not need to wait for a single on obvious situations. Players that sit around and wait to complain that they wanted to stand on a three-card eight after losing are perhaps not legally cheating, but in my opinion they are ethically cheating.
Quote: WizardI have a different opinion. If you had a three-card eight and the dealer automatically gave you a card, you end up losing, and then file a complaint saying you wanted to stand, I submit that most casinos would view you as a "shot taker." They would probably let you get away with it once, but if you tried it again you'd probably be backed off or trespassed.
One thing I learned at the Venetian was how often they saw such shot takers and what a short fuse they had for them. On this matter, I am completely on the casino side. The dealer should not need to wait for a single on obvious situations. Players that sit around and wait to complain that they wanted to stand on a three-card eight after losing are perhaps not legally cheating, but in my opinion they are ethically cheating.
I completely agree. And I am not on the casino's side in many discussions. If I am going to do something viewed as unusual or even slightly out of the ordinary, then I am prepared to stop the dealer right then and there as he goes by. Before the next player or the dealer acts. You cannot wait until after the fact.
Quote: kewljI completely agree. And I am not on the casino's side in many discussions. If I am going to do something viewed as unusual or even slightly out of the ordinary, then I am prepared to stop the dealer right then and there as he goes by. Before the next player or the dealer acts. You cannot wait until after the fact.
Definitely agree. From a dealer's perspective, blackjack is probably the easiest game for dealers to be on "auto-pilot". So the player needs to be ready to make a non-standard play.
Splitting 10s vs 4-6
Hitting S18 vs 9-A
I wonder what the EV loss to the player (counter) is if he does not stop the dealer from auto piloting these hands? Very minor I hope?
Quote: kewljI completely agree. And I am not on the casino's side in many discussions. If I am going to do something viewed as unusual or even slightly out of the ordinary, then I am prepared to stop the dealer right then and there as he goes by. Before the next player or the dealer acts. You cannot wait until after the fact.
I also completely with this and I'm also not on the casino's side for many discussions as well, but in this case is pretty obvious ethical cheating.
Quote: WizardI have a different opinion. If you had a three-card eight and the dealer automatically gave you a card
While I respect you greatly, your differing opinion is that the house has the right to make decisions on how a player's hand is played.
The house should never assume what a player's action will be.
If the house makes an assumption, rather than waiting for and following a player's decision, they should at least return the wager at the player's request, due to a misdeal.
I understand that the specific shot of arguing "I didn't hit my 8" is weak, but please agree with me that the player - not the house - should decide how the player's hand is played.
The problem with that is that the house would likely burn the card, instead of deliver it to the dealer's hand.
Dealers being on autopilot and making decisions on behalf of the player is wrong, period.
Quote: DieterIf the house makes an assumption, rather than waiting for and following a player's decision, they should at least return the wager at the player's request, due to a misdeal.
No, that's the player taking a shot.
If a player asks for a wager to be returned because the house hit a 3-card 8, they should just ban the player and read him the trespass act. Problem solved. If the player wants his bet returned he can take it up with gaming.
Any player requesting this is either a shot-taker or has next-card information (probably hole-card information too). Either way the casino does not want that player's action.
BTW, anyone with that information who makes a big deal about the auto-hit on the 8 is an idiot. I obviously have no problems with anyone obtaining and using that information so long as they do it legally, but drawing attention in this way is beyond stupid.
Quote: DieterI should also clarify that I don't advocate making these complaints after the fact - if I really wanted to stand on my 8, I should have immediately said that I wanted to stand.
The problem with that is that the house would likely burn the card, instead of deliver it to the dealer's hand.
Dealers being on autopilot and making decisions on behalf of the player is wrong, period.
At most every casino I can think of, the card would be in play to anyone who wanted it or needed it including the dealer. Who hasn't doubled a hard 17 after seeing the next card is a 4? Even pit bosses will sometimes encourage it. If the card isn't used at the completion of the hand it is burned.
I completely agree that the dealer cannot act until given a hand signal. Period. Dealers at one casino that I play will wait for a hard 20 to be waved off and you can't split 10s there.
Your example of standing on 8 is a little extreme and would not be in your best interest. I don't think you are a shot taker.
He could be the poster boy for shot takers.
Proof reading correction : Asanine is not spelled W E A K
Quote: Buzzard" I don't think you are a shot taker. " Then you experience with shot takers has been extremely limited.
He could be the poster boy for shot takers.
Actually, Buzz, I have extensive experience with shot takers. Probably more than most players here. Dieter is merely saying that the casino should abide by the rules just as the players are expected to. By the way, this is not some house rule or gray area.
there's certainly more. 12 vs. 3( yes, 3) and 4-6, and your negative index plays if you play a lot of double deck, will sometimes induce a double take by the dealer as they are about to start playing out their own hand. Doubling a,9 or a,8 I've had dealers start to play out their hand as I gave slight pause for decision. I personally hesitate to double on a,9 or split 10' s unless it is well beyond the index and I'm on my way out the door anyway, but everyone has their style and value judgments.Quote: NeutrinoThinking this whole thing through now, I'm getting a feeling that there may be only 2 common situations where the dealer would autopilot a wrong decision:
Splitting 10s vs 4-6
Hitting S18 vs 9-A
I wonder what the EV loss to the player (counter) is if he does not stop the dealer from auto piloting these hands? Very minor I hope?
Quote: BuzzardSo he really, really, really did not want to hit that hard 8. Oh, I misunderstood. Please accept my sincerest apology.
What I really, really, really want is for the dealer to wait for me to signal a hit before delivering a card, and wait for me to wave off before moving on to the next hand.
The basis and circumstances of that decision are irrelevant, no matter how asinine it may seem. It's my hand, it's my money, I make the play.
The house combats advantage play by limiting player actions. When they attempt to limit player actions without posting a rule expressing the limitation, we must fight back.
Quote: DieterThe house combats advantage play by limiting player actions. When they attempt to limit player actions without posting a rule expressing the limitation, we must fight back.
That's crazy. You are missing the point.
Remember that it's not just about beating the game, it's about beating the game and getting away with it. All the edge in the world is worth exactly $0 if they don't let you play. Getting away with it means blending in, and blending in means not making a big deal out of things that regular players won't make a big deal out of.
If this is really a problem, the smart way to deal with it is, quietly, without involving the floor, asking the dealer to always wait for your hand signals, perhaps as you place a bet as a tip for the dealer.
The absolute wrong way is to get upset because they hit your hard 8 and start asking for your money back. This immediately identifies you as a shot taker or an AP, and all eyes will be on you. Is this really what you want? the expression "penny wise, pound foolish" comes to mind.
It's almost like you are trying to get backed off.
Quote: AxiomOfChoicethe smart way to deal with it is, quietly, without involving the floor, asking the dealer to always wait for your hand signals
Oh, I agree - that's much more practical. That's usually the first step I take, too. It usually works OK. I have no particular fear of asking the floor to remind the dealer to wait for my hand signals, however.
Perhaps my opinion is colored by the many times I've seen the floor defend a ploppy against another ploppy - "He has the right to play his hand the way he wants", after someone stands on a 5 out of spite and someone else misses a double down.
I'm not worried about heat, since I've never seen, felt, or heard of any at my neighborhood casino. Being out in the middle of nowhere, dealing with tribal casinos, sometimes has its upsides.
I would think that the casino would strongly support a player's right to be superstitious and stand on whatever under-16 total they choose to.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThat's crazy. You are missing the point.
Remember that it's not just about beating the game, it's about beating the game and getting away with it. All the edge in the world is worth exactly $0 if they don't let you play. Getting away with it means blending in, and blending in means not making a big deal out of things that regular players won't make a big deal out of.
If this is really a problem, the smart way to deal with it is, quietly, without involving the floor, asking the dealer to always wait for your hand signals, perhaps as you place a bet as a tip for the dealer.
The absolute wrong way is to get upset because they hit your hard 8 and start asking for your money back. This immediately identifies you as a shot taker or an AP, and all eyes will be on you. Is this really what you want? the expression "penny wise, pound foolish" comes to mind.
It's almost like you are trying to get backed off.
This is smart advice the OP would be wise to listen. There is no point to being an AP without the P.
