Article: NY Lawyer's Trek thru Press Releases
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It is a business, not a charity. DUH
As with any game it comes down to penetration and rules. I'm not talking shoes. Even if I were to find a beatable version I would not play it. Playing will only bolster the casinos' resolve to install more of this game that I refuse to call blackjack.
Quote: Chris Opfer...casinos changed the payouts on blackjack hands from three-to-two to six-to-five. That might not seem like a big difference to casual observers, but experts say the change significantly increases the casinos’ house edge.
Quote: Richard W. MunchkinThe house edge is like a fee for every hand that goes by...That fee goes up when casinos short players on payouts.
Quote: BuzzardIf the game go back to 3/2, the house will make less money. 6/5 is here to stay.
It is a business, not a charity. DUH
6/5 is here to stay? May be or may not be. Thank goodness for the good old-fashioned competitions among casinos. Borgata still offers the best blackjack game in town...all 3/2 BJs... 13 tables of $25 6deckers...none of the 6/5 sh*tty BJ games. Borgata has been taking in almost $50,000,000 gross winnings each month where as its competitors with sh*tty games took in much less...as less as $4,700,000 ... see the link for details...
http://www.nj.gov/oag/ge/docs/Financials/MGR2014/201406revenue.pdf
Numbers don't lie (unless casinos cook the book to cheat on the gaming taxes).
Quote: 1BBThere are some who say 6/5 can be beaten. I'll let everyone digest that for a moment.
As with any game it comes down to penetration and rules. I'm not talking shoes. Even if I were to find a beatable version I would not play it. Playing will only bolster the casinos' resolve to install more of this game that I refuse to call blackjack.
Any game can be beaten with the right conditions.
6/5 with rules that would generally considered "normal" blackjack rules (ie, rules that you might find in a good 3:2 game as well) can't be beaten by straight counting. Penetration is not enough. If they added enough "carnie rules" to bring the edge back somewhere where it could be beaten, sure, I'd play it. Why not?
Quote: Fortalezo6/5 is here to stay? May be or may not be. Thank goodness for the good old-fashioned competition among casinos. Borgata still offers the best blackjack game in town...all 3/2 BJs...none of the 6/5 sh*tty BJ games. Borgata has been taking in almost $50,000,000 gross winnings each month where as its competitors with sh*tty games took in much less...as less as $4,700,000 ... see the link for details...
Same in Vegas. MGM Grand is constantly packed and they are making good money... and 6:5 is only found at the single deck games (and there are not a lot of those). Everything else is 3:2, and 3 of the pits are S17.
Now, if you want to play $5 blackjack on the strip, sure, you are going to play 6:5 and H17. But that seems reasonable to me. Strip casinos have lots of expenses and if you want to play there you need to pay those expenses, either with a low edge on large wagers or a large edge on small wagers.
Quote: BuzzardIf 6/5 is not here to stay, please list those casinos in the last 10 years that have reverted back to 3/2 from 6/5.
Harrah's Las Vegas just reverted their main low limit BJ pit from eight deck 6/5 to six deck 3/2.
Quote: ams288Harrah's Las Vegas just reverted their main low limit BJ pit from eight deck 6/5 to six deck 3/2.
One local (CA) casino that I frequent recently (within the past year or so) changed all their low-limit games from 6:5 to 3:2 and also made all games S17 (including single deck). The rules on the main floor are now the same as those in the high limit room. 6-deck, 3:2, S17, DOA, DAS, RSA at $5 tables ($10 or $15 when it's busy), just like the $100 tables in the high limit room.
Single deck is S17, 3:2, but no resplit, no DAS, and double on 10 and 11 only.
Borgata gets 25%.
Quote: BuzzardGee 2 casinos. And how many have gone the other way ? Do the names Venetian and Palazzo ring a bell ?As for Borgata, that's like comparing Rolex watch to Timex. Bally gets 30% of their WIN from table games. Caesars gets 40% of their WIN from table games.
Borgata gets 25%.
Venetian and Palazzo are the only two that have gone that way for mid-high limit games. They are also the absolute worst casinos on the strip. They also don't have any video poker over 98.5%, while almost every large strip casino has 99.5%+ games at either $1 or $5 denom. They are also the lowest ranked casino in Vegas (ahead of only the airport) in the Wizard's slot survey.
In short, Venetian has great rooms, great restaurants, and an absolutely horrible casino. They are an outlier, not the norm.
As for low-limit, again, if you expect to play for $5 on the strip, that's what you're going to get. That seems reasonable to me considering their expenses. If you want to play for low stakes at a small edge, you need to go to a small casino in an undesirable location with low expenses. If you want to be around all the glitz and glamor you have to pay for it.
Thats it exactly. The Venetian has the reputation for opulence, luxury, wealth, safety, etc... its not the type of place that specials involving macaroni and cheese for two bucks. For many people that is the selling point.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceVenetian and Palazzo are the lowest ranked casino in Vegas (ahead of only the airport) in the Wizard's slot survey.
In short, Venetian has great rooms, great restaurants, and an absolutely horrible casino. They are an outlier, not the norm.
If you want to be around all the glitz and glamor you have to pay for it.
Of course for many ... they don't know about any slot survey or Gaming Reports. They just want to gawk at an indoor sky and ornate ceilings and be "in Vegas" which to them means "on the Strip" not eating the two dollar macaroni special.
So its hard to say what "Vegas" is doing... its a very competitive market now and its not just casino versus casino but also casino versus bar, restaurant, night club and topless club.
Quote: BuzzardIf the game go back to 3/2, the house will make less money. 6/5 is here to stay.
It is a business, not a charity. DUH
But this is shortsightedness that will kill the golden goose.
Even though most players don't know how bad 6/5 is, compared with 3/2, they DO notice their money doesn't last as long. I've heard plenty of ploppies make comments like, "Gee, $500 used to last me all day. Now it's gone in a few hours." Part of the entertainment experience is having an expectation to occasionally win. The tighter the games get, the less frequently that happens. Like restaurants, casinos need repeat business to thrive and survive. The excessive tightening that is now going on may generate more profit next quarter, but it makes long-term survival more difficult.
Quote: 21formeBut this is shortsightedness that will kill the golden goose.
Even though most players don't know how bad 6/5 is, compared with 3/2, they DO notice their money doesn't last as long. I've heard plenty of ploppies make comments like, "Gee, $500 used to last me all day. Now it's gone in a few hours." Part of the entertainment experience is having an expectation to occasionally win. The tighter the games get, the less frequently that happens. Like restaurants, casinos need repeat business to thrive and survive. The excessive tightening that is now going on may generate more profit next quarter, but it makes long-term survival more difficult.
Completely agree. And it isn't limited to 3/2 to 6/5 blackjack either. I have heard many video poker players comment about the poorer return from games with poorer paytables. They might not even know the math behind such a change, but they do recognize that they win less often and their money isn't lasting as long. Even slot players seem to notice this.
The result, as 21forme said, is the casinos lose repeat business. They get into a downward spiral situation of trying to squeeze a little more out of an ever shrinking customer base, until there is no one left to squeeze. This is completely backwards from a normal successful business model.
Anyone know the number of tables on the strip and which are full price at lower limits. Piss, moan, complain all you want.
BJ at low limits is headed for 6 deck, H17, 6/5. Get used to it. It's coming whether you want it to or not.
Too many casinos are just looking at profit next quarter, I agree. But that ain't gonna change either.
3/2 on a $5 table can barely pay the dealer, let alone the pit, back room, security, mortgage, AC, etc.
Casinos can only keep it as 3/2 as a loss leader. And there is a limit to that. Just cause you are too smart to play 6/5
doesn't mean the average ploppy is.
Average gambler in Vegas plays less than 3 hours. He wants to play BJ in the short run. It's still returns 98% +
Of course maybe that boycott of 6/5 games that started 10 years ago will finally get traction LOL Never smarten up a chump.
And of course that H17 has gained no traction either.
Quote: beachbumbabsI have to think this is progress in the right direction, regardless of Buzz and his urine-soaked cornflakes. Give people a good game and let the HE and their own frailties work against them. Much better way to do business.
PERSONAL INSULT GOES UNPUNISHED ! ! !
Quote: 21formeBut this is shortsightedness that will kill the golden goose.
Even though most players don't know how bad 6/5 is, compared with 3/2, they DO notice their money doesn't last as long. Part of the entertainment experience is having an expectation to occasionally win. The tighter the games get, the less frequently that happens. e. The excessive tightening that is now going on may generate more profit next quarter, but it makes long-term survival more difficult.
Precisely. Short sighted MBAs look at the bottom line and are happy, but the players have a general sense of slot machines, blackjack and everything just doesn't last as long.
No amount of arguing how minor it is will work if you make your customers unhappy. You've got to have them leave with a smile on their face. Never think that just because they are not Ph D.s in Mathematics that they don't understand. They understand perfectly and if they feel cheated they ain't coming back. If they feel they had a good chance and its Lady Luck's fault; they will blame Lady Luck; If they feel the game is just too rigged against them and that they were cheated; they ain't gonna be in a forgiving mood.
Casinos are open 7 by 24, not just weekends. 6/5 is the only option available. and with H17 too. You can only subsidize table games from slot revenue so long.
You do not alter your business model for the other 1%.
Do you think 1 out of 100 plays perfect basic strategy, refuses even money, know the percentage payback on the VP machine they are playing, or that hedging on craps is just plain dumb ?
And the funny thing about this scenario....a few of the casinos have petitioned the state to allow the casino to set the rules. They are benefitting by having the best returns BECAUSE the rules, yet they want to be allowed to tighten the rules and go backwards like the rest of the industry. Hopefully the state of Pa will continue to save these idiots from themselves.
Quote: kewljBuzz, I have a question for you. Why is it that the state that has the highest blackjack holds, and win amount per table, happens to be the state that has one of the better sets of blackjack rules in the country, PA (3/2 BJ, S17, surrender)?
Speaking of Surrender, that's another one the bean counters don't get. While, in theory, Surr is favorable for the player, have you seen what ploppies surrender? It is definitely a rule that gives the house an edge, but few casinos offer it.
Also, Buzzard, BJ should be considered a loss leader. Mr. Ploppy plays BJ with a 0.5% house edge, while Mrs. Ploppy is dropping 10% at the slots. If Mr. Ploppy doesn't like the BJ game, they BOTH will go elsewhere.
Quote: BuzzardLabor goes up, floor space at a premium, and you think BJ can pay it's way at 3/2 at low levels tables ? Not gonna happen.
Anyone know the number of tables on the strip and which are full price at lower limits.
Still most of them, I think. All the ones that I go to.
They are mostly H17 outside of the high-limit areas, but they still pay 3:2. 6:5 really isn't doing that well.
Most of them just raise the min bets instead. $5 blackjack is hard to find on the strip. The lower-end strip casinos have some $5 6:5 game, but most casinos on the strip don't do that -- they don't want the $5 bettors, anyway. They just pay 3:2 and have $25 minimums (maybe $15 at off-peak times)
Quote: 21formeMr. Ploppy plays BJ with a 0.5% house edge
hahahahah
Quote: kewljBuzz, I have a question for you. Why is it that the state that has the highest blackjack holds, and win amount per table, happens to be the state that has one of the better sets of blackjack rules in the country, PA (3/2 BJ, S17, surrender)?
And the funny thing about this scenario....a few of the casinos have petitioned the state to allow the casino to set the rules. They are benefitting by having the best returns BECAUSE the rules, yet they want to be allowed to tighten the rules and go backwards like the rest of the industry. Hopefully the state of Pa will continue to save these idiots from themselves.
I am no biblical scholar, but the 11 th commandment is not BJ WILL ALWAYS PAY 3 to 2. Pa is in the honeymoon stage. The casinos that want to change the rules want to have the ability to offer $5 or $10 minimum games. Which Mr Ploppy wants. I mean HE on pa rules with 6 deck is 0.35 percent.
Most floppies will play that game at 1 percent or less. Not that many opportunities to screw up. Gee, house can deal 350 hands per hour. Wow. Table full of minimum
bettors and house can rack up $17.50 or $35.00. WHOOPEE.
The casinos need H17. Surrendering mean shut to average floppy. Insurance is sucker bet for the house more than players.
HE is 0.35 on blackjack in PA with 6 deck. Yeah, what a ripoff if they raise that HE.
Quote: onenickelmiracleraising the minimum raises the actual edge doesn't it because people become scared to "follow the book".
This is one thing that I've noticed. Once I was playing at the high limit table (min = $100) and there was a girl there. She was playing for $100 to $200 per hand, more or less following basic strategy. She was no counter.
Anyway, at some point, she puts a much bigger than usual bet out -- maybe $700 or $1000 (the count was not good -- again, she was no counter). I think she got dealt something like a 15 vs a 7 or 8. She paused, for a long time. The she said, I don't want to risk busting -- it's too much money. So she stood.
I don't understand this logic. You can't risk busting, but you can risk the dealer not busting?
Quote: AxiomOfChoicehahahahah
Yeah, you're right. I should have said theoretically. Real-life numbers I've seen place it closer to 2-3%.
Well, I guess those are the two separate components of the risks that are involved but I doubt a ploppy could calculate them and it still "feels" safer to not take a risk by drawing a card than to draw one and lose.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI don't understand this logic. You can't risk busting, but you can risk the dealer not busting?
Quote: 21formeYeah, you're right. I should have said theoretically. Real-life numbers I've seen place it closer to 2-3%.
NOT AT ALL ANOTHER URBAN LEGEND
http://www.onlineblackjack.com/central-strip-vegas/
Never bust: For my analysis of this strategy I assumed the player would never hit a hard 12 or more. All other decisions were according to correct basic strategy. This "never bust" strategy results in a house edge of 3.91%.
Now many ploppies play anywhere near this bad ? ? ?
Quote: Buzzardas for the average ploppy turning a game with a HE of 0.35% into 2-3%, consider this :
Never bust: For my analysis of this strategy I assumed the player would never hit a hard 12 or more. All other decisions were according to correct basic strategy. This "never bust" strategy results in a house edge of 3.91%.
Now many ploppies play anywhere near this bad ? ? ?
It's true that they are not quite "never bust", but they are also making some other very costly errors that the "never bust" analysis does not take into account. Failing to double when you are supposed to can be expensive. 99v4.... stand? A7v4... stand?? A6v4... stand???? A5v4.... STAND????????? Ok so A5 is pretty bad but you see people stand on soft 17 all the time.
Add to that, insuring their good hands (particularly funny when they are playing 2 hands, have a 20 and a stiff, and insure one of them, and make sure that the dealer understands that they are insuring the 20 and not the 14!!! Because insuring the 14 and not the 20 would be crazy. And then don't forget the occasional 3rd base hit of 15 vs a 5 because if someone doesn't hit the dealer won't bust!!!
3% is particularly bad but I don't think that 2% is unusual. I think that very few players are under 1%.
Maybe the games that you frequent have better players. Remember that the strip is clueless tourists. Locals who play a lot may play better (although, not the locals where I live)
And 30 percent of a counters winning comes from insurance bets.
And 30 percent of a counters winning comes from insurance bets.
Quote: BuzzardI am talking about the 0.35 game in PA. If you average all the floppies, not just the idiots I think it is 1percent overall. Just not enough idiots and opportunities to be dumb. Lots of decisions are very tiny advantages. Those 17-21 hands occur a lot. As for insurance it is a sucker bet for both sides. Usually the only takers are even money. Once every 260 hands. Waiting for answers, talking change, paying off, etc to get a 5 percent edge all to often on one half on a minimum bet. Be better off not even offering it and dealing more hands per shift.
And 30 percent of a counters winning comes from insurance bets.
5%? Insurance pays 2:1. 6 decks, so 96 winners, 215 losers, house edge of 7.4%. Insuring that T,T has a house edge of 8.7% (94 winners, 215 losers). You may as well go play slots. Even on half a bet, that is as much as the house makes on 6 hands vs a basic strategy player!
